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This way people can still have their permanent Overcharge Boost or get stronger for a short period of time.

Don't you people get why that particular mechanism was removed? No one would use skills if doing so meant giving up a passive damage bonus for x hits.

Don't you people get why that particular mechanism was removed? No one would use skills if doing so meant giving up a passive damage bonus for x hits.

That absolutely justifies the nerfbat.
I mean, you're trying to make something fit in your idea. You had an idea of weapon skills, thank you, that is an awesome idea. Then you had an idea that these skills must cost Overcharge. Well... fine, that is quite an idea. But after this you no longer can revert back to the old conception, cause WOOPS.
Actually the solution is as simple as pie.
Make the passive Overcharge bonus linked to MAXIMUM OC, not CURRENT OC.
Voila, problem solved. Those who have points in OC boost will still get their passive damage, those who don't... well, yeah. And this will still allow us to manage the OC for Spirit mode.
Easy? :3

This post has been edited by MiAla: Dec 25 2011, 22:02

Don't you people get why that particular mechanism was removed? No one would use skills if doing so meant giving up a passive damage bonus for x hits.

Add more than one Skill and change it so it doesn't drain all OC so they can be combo'd and then we'll talk.

You probably should have waited until you could put in more than one Skill before introducing the new system. Its so incomplete its angst-inducing.

Don't you people get why that particular mechanism was removed? No one would use skills if doing so meant giving up a passive damage bonus for x hits.

How about something in-between?

Some random thoughts:
Use the current spirit mode, but lower the OC consumption rate so the spirit mode lasts longer for melees.
Then limit the OC consumption rate for skills to 100% OC.

Don't you people get why that particular mechanism was removed? No one would use skills if doing so meant giving up a passive damage bonus for x hits.

And that's why you forced us to give up our passive damage bonus and isntead have a damage bonus for x hits.
And yet you refuse to call it a nerf?

This post has been edited by Randommember: Dec 25 2011, 22:10

Don't you people get why that particular mechanism was removed? No one would use skills if doing so meant giving up a passive damage bonus for x hits.

Would not say that. On higher Difficulty settings I can see me using the Skills just to kill off some Giants or other High HP foes faster. that one Skill (forgot name) gives PA which is pretty nice to deal with them.

Then you could make PA work on Poison so there are even more opportunities to tactically use it.
What Melee really needs is some tactics not some % more/less Damage. Melee as it is now means holding down the attack button until everything is dead.

This post has been edited by Ichy: Dec 25 2011, 22:11

Played with mage spirit mode for a bit, it's only usable during arenas/difficulties where you have to ET. So in my normal play basically just DWD. Only lasts 10 turns so it's wasted if used mid-clear (MM-ing for CM-procs eats up buff time), so it's best saved for final round. I believe Hito said it was useful for the BT/IWBTH legendary arena clear (so the one time you clear it).

It only lasts 10 turns if you have 100% overcharge, since it draws 10 overcharge percentageunits every turn it is active.

But it means you can slowly build it up, and then have a huge damage bonus for a few rounds (which mages can do a lot with) against the final round boss.

It is a bonus you didn't have, and you gave up nothing in order to get it. That is the definition of a buff, I'd say.

How about something in-between?

Some random thoughts:
Use the current spirit mode, but lower the OC consumption rate so the spirit mode lasts longer for melees.
Then limit the OC consumption rate for skills to 100% OC.

Something in between would work, I'd say.
The spirit mode compared to passive damage bonus from OC is a major nerf.

The change to spirit attack (making it a skill not costing spirit, just OC) was a good move.

Revert the spirit mode thing and take the passive damage bonus back, and let the skill be the new (old) spirit attack, using only overcharge.

This post has been edited by Randommember: Dec 25 2011, 22:15

Why 'Skill' must need to be something offensive, anyway? ... I don't want to play a shitty version of mage. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Forgot to mention:
What really makes me screw Skills altogether: There is no Hotkey for them (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
Moving my hand from the numpad to the mouse just to use it is so annoying.

Please give us a hotkey for one chosen skill or allow us to place them in the Quickbar.

Why 'Skill' must need to be something offensive, anyway? ... I don't want to play a shitty version of mage. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Um...
Sonicboost: make yourself extremely fast for several turns
You_Cannot_Pass: increase your mitigation for several turns

Something like that?
That would make it somewhat interesting...

Um...
Sonicboost: make yourself extremely fast for several turns
You_Cannot_Pass: increase your mitigation for several turns

Something like that?
That would make it somewhat interesting...

Can I has my Summon Lisi Skill? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

And to change the tone completely, I really like the new equipment system, especially the fact that it makes it so much easier to find the best piece for each slot, not having to scroll past 200+ types of weapons to get to the helmets.

But could you add another layer of differentiation to make it even easier?

For example, if you click on the helmet slot, you get taken to a page where the helmet slot is at the top, in the box, with the current item equipped, and then a list of all the other headgear you have.
Maybe a submenu, similar to that in the equipment shop, underneath the box at the top, where you can choose to show All, Cloth, Light and Heavy.

Makes little difference to someone that hasn't got that much stuff to begin with, but especially the weapon slot can have quite a few entries in the list, so you have to scroll to get to the right type. Having it sub-divided into one-handed, two-handed and staffs (and one-handed and shields for the off-hand slot) would mean you wouldn't have to be scrolling past clubs, rapiers and longswords if you are looking for the best holy damage staff.

How many people had Overcharge maxed? Fully? Maybe one, two tops? And you expect me to balance everything for extreme outliers? Really?

Just to share my 2 cents: I think I was the first one in the thread 'bitching' about the changes - it's like habit, I love doing that whenever a patch drops for the game I'm currently playing lol.

But the thing is, they were noticeable for a mid-level player who invested 10 APs in Overcharge, not a 250+ godslayer with more and more points in that (since from about my level Health & Magic Tank are finally maxed, and Spirit + Overcharge is where you'd put your APs into).

If *I* can notice those and they indeed hurt my gameplan, I can only imagine how suckish that is for high level players who use to face higher difficulty arenas, longer crysfest/grindfest/IW runs.

Now, I fully understand that balancing a game is always tough, but one should fine balance between higher level players and lower level ones - you just don't make it atrocious for some players and kinda nerfed for others, it's just bad for everyone.

But again, this is just a patch. The thing is receiving feedback, hopefully something will change.

Or maybe not if it's true Tenb hates on melee as people say lol.

I look in this thread and see lementations about nerf? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
Well durr, I went back from heroic to hard, but now I clear arenas faster skipping every third round with shatter strike.
So, I lost dmg bonus from 230 OC but now save time and some mana from IA and healing, and outcome is similar as from before patch.
Even Spirit mode which may look useless have some use in RoB when ended with iris strike.
I would say (IMG:[s5.postimage.org] http://s5.postimage.org/91qo5ktuv/tumblr_lltzgn_Hi5_F1qzib3wo1_400.jpg)
But I'm not level 250+ so maybe it hurt less.

Defensive skills? Want.

I like how the stun effect from skills can overwrite an already existing stun. This way I can keep them stunned a bit longer.
You could probably perma-stun an enemy even longer with soul stones..

Tenboro, I think that, yes, there was a reason why the OC boost was removed, but the other posters bring up good points that it effectively IS a nerf because:

1. melee users were better off before the OC change due to not having to whack things for mediocre damage to build up OC, which actually decreases the average damage of melee over time, despite the fact that Spirit Mode is +100% damage, to below what the damage was before since many players had a max OC of above 100%; and

2. there is a lack of good skills to make up for the loss of OC boost as others have mentioned.

Overall melee users aren't as efficient as before (which was not even that efficient compared to mages) which means it IS a nerf. In that sense the fixing of the stun effect to make monsters attack on the turn they break stun is also a nerf (EDIT:I have not noticed the 'refreshing stun' thing that the above poster mentions at time of posting but I'm just using this as an example). It may not have been intended in the first place, but it was something that made melee users good and relative to that time they are worse now. I think what obviously is a nerf should be recognised as such.

I am LV142 at the time of this post so I hope I don't count as an extreme outlier, and I definitely feel the effects of this change. Many melee users increase OC Tanks around LV120 so this patch affects quite a large level range.

Some solutions are suggested by the others may be worth considering.

In any case, thanks for actually taking the time to listen to what we have to say and hopefully you're not just dismissing it as immaterial whining.

This post has been edited by cheesey: Dec 26 2011, 00:27

I look in this thread and see lementations about nerf? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
Well durr, I went back from heroic to hard, but now I clear arenas faster skipping every third round with shatter strike.
So, I lost dmg bonus from 230 OC but now save time and some mana from IA and healing, and outcome is similar as from before patch.
Even Spirit mode which may look useless have some use in RoB when ended with iris strike.
I would say (IMG:[s5.postimage.org] http://s5.postimage.org/91qo5ktuv/tumblr_lltzgn_Hi5_F1qzib3wo1_400.jpg)
But I'm not level 250+ so maybe it hurt less.

Defensive skills? Want.

Err, you just lowered the difficulty, you said it yourself lol. If you did that, it's because you were struggling to stay on Heroic.

Pretty much everybody can save time and mana going lowering the difficulty level... :E

Here's how I'm seeing Spirit Mode as reading a bit more with regards to high level players (and thus we assume that they do not have crappy equipment):

Melees have lost their passive boost that's variable for a higher static boost that has a cost. This static boost's buff is less pronounced if you were at a higher level when you had more AP to invested Overcharge and the difference between the static boost and the former passive boost becomes smaller. Mages, as I understand it, essentially gain a passive boost on certain spells from EDB equipment on that at no cost. They also have access to Spirit Mode for an additional boost.

So, from what I can tell, mages have access to both a passive and a cost-related boost, while melees now only have a cost-related one. Even with the increased damage from Spirit Mode, I'm pretty sure melee damage doesn't get close to the damage done by an EDB'd spell without the Spirit Mode boost.

Mages can make use of Spirit Mode when they feel like it, but do not necessarily need it because they already have a decent boost from equipment. Not only that, but it can be dangerous for them to build up overcharge in the first place, so then they might not even use it anyways. Melees, on the other, practically need the boost to keep up on later arenas & higher difficulties.

Let's say melee with Spirit Mode can rival mages without it (but have EDB equipment) in terms of damage output. It costs mages MP to cast spells, which mages can ET back or use Mana Potions. It costs melees SP and Overcharge, with Overcharge regen not being an issuem but SP is an issue. SP regens slowly, and at higher difficulties, probably everyone needs either or both Spirit Shield and Spark of Life. Melees also still need MP to cast spells for healing, buffs and debuffs as well. So even if melees could match mages in damage output, it costs melees so much more to maintain the damage output.

Note that I'm not saying that Spirit Mode is better for mages than melees (we've talked about this already with regards to regening overcharge). With Spirit Mode being better for melee than mages being considered, we then look at them separately. For melees, despite whatever damage buff we've been given, Spirit Mode seems like an overall nerf to melees because of cost for maintaining it. For mages, while less viable, it can still be used for a damage boost. While it still has the cost per turn as for melees, it's used less due to little need for it, thus there is less total cost for maintaining it. Either very little has changed for mages, or they have gained a small overall buff.

To point it out again, this is for high leveled people. Obviously low leveled people who only have around 100% Overcharge gained a much larger boost, and the practically non-existent use for SP then makes Spirit Mode viable. Low level melees can then hack and slash away with Spirit Mode, while low-level mages may not have the good/rare EDB Phase equipment needed to match melee at that point. At higher levels, even before this patch, it's clear that this switches later on with mages dominating.

From what I've experienced with my DW skill, there's no reason I'd want to use it anyways. I'd rather have Spirit Mode on than use the skill in Arenas, and I'll have to see if the damage output done on things lik FSM would justify my not using Spirit Mode then. The only melee skills that I can as being worth it are Niten's and 2H, with 2H's seeming infinitely better than 1H and DW, so that's probably unbalanced the fighting styles a bit. Forge applies to both melees and mages so we'll skip that, and I assume the reason very few people had max overcharge to begin with is because there aren't very many high-leveled melee users in the first place (it may have increased after the buff to clubs and maces, but since then maces and clubs have only been nerfed for balance purposes likely). This nerf to melees would only serve to make more people switch to maging wouldn't it?

This post has been edited by HaliZorat: Dec 26 2011, 00:39

Can we at least get cured after an hourly encounter?
It's just too sad.

Can we at least get cured after an hourly encounter?
It's just too sad.

RoB would be cool, too.