[X] My Assistant

As I said, Daijisen partitions words accurately even as far as my personal intuition is concerned. I don't believe in it blindly.

And as I said, 物 and もの might share their etymological origin, but they've evolved into very different things. I probably should've left out the exclamation-mark from my example there, since it partly overrides the emotional context all on its own. How about this: After being asked "Why didn't you go to school today?" or something, a kid replying "行ったもん". Or an even more obvious example: in an arbitrary context, someone replying "そういう物はやだもん" ? You're not going to be able to replace もの with 物 and leave the emotional context intact, because 物 really isn't implied here.

While I'm not native, having studied 8 languages and "mastered" 3, my linguistic intuition is pretty solid. For natives, it's not as easy to look at their mother tongue from an objective perspective, and they tend to make small mistakes and have small misunderstandings regarding things that are more obvious from foreigners' points-of-view.

I've witnessed this phenomenon in native speakers of many languages, including English, Russian, Japanese (like now) and my own native language --- believe me, it's surprisingly common. Especially in terms of language technicalities, well-learned foreigners tend to trump natives.

And as I said, 物 and もの might share their etymological origin, but they've evolved into very different things. I probably should've left out the exclamation-mark from my example there, since it partly overrides the emotional context all on its own. How about this: After being asked "Why didn't you go to school today?" or something, a kid replying "行ったもん". Or an even more obvious example: in an arbitrary context, someone replying "そういう物はやだもん" ? You're not going to be able to replace もの with 物 and leave the emotional context intact, because 物 really isn't implied here.

Your opinion just shows your lack of understanding about "物".

On "行ったもん", "もん(物)" means the "subject (=went to school or not)".
And "行ったもん" is short for "そのもの(行動)には行った".

On "そういう物はやだもん", "もん(物)" also means the "subject (=like it or not)".
And "そういう物はやだもん" is short for "そういう物に対するもの(感情)はいやだ".

Don't identify "物(thing)" as "物(subject)".
So, on most of situations, these "物" simply means "it" in English.

Think why "もん" is not used alone as a setence, if "もん" means "because" or something like you mentioned.

Well, that's exactly what I referred to as transcendental thinking. :)

I do understand the wide range of meanings 物 has, and I don't think your way of thinking is far off per se, but it fails to take into account that もの・もん changes the emotional context in ways that can't be readily reproduced with 物. When you juxtapose the two objectively, 物 is a word that actually carries some informational content, while もの・もん carries only emotional content ---- you could leave it out, and the sentence still says the same thing (but the emotional context changes).

In the first example, if we consider "行ったもん" to be short for "そのもの(行動)には行った", while the information stays the same, we fail to deal with the changed emotional context. The second sentence just doesn't convey the emotions that come automatically with もの・もん.

As デジタル大辞泉 states:

㋐不平・不満・恨みの意を込めながら、相手の自分に対する非難に対し、根拠や理由を示し、反駁(はんばく)、�
��え（うったえ）、甘えなどの気持ちを表す。

Of the types of emotional effect it has, none can be attributed to 物.

That's why while you can argue that もの is derived from 物, it's evolved into a new thing entirely. That's the reason the kanji has been dropped, too. I see that your way of thinking emphasizes etymology and complex associations, but with functional considerations (contrasting the usage of the two words objectively) in mind, 物 and もの・もん are different enough to be considered separate.

This post has been edited by VVayfarer: Jan 27 2015, 17:58

You only scoop superficial meanings and I talk about structure of sentences.
That's why I said the subject is "worth no longer".
So, you don't need to reply at all except for your self‐satisfaction.

In the first example, if we consider "行ったもん" to be short for "そのもの(行動)には行った", while the information stays the same, we fail to deal with the changed emotional context. The second sentence just doesn't convey the emotions that come automatically with もの・もん.

That's just your understanding.
This shows you don't understand essential meanings of Japanese sentences.

㋐不平・不満・恨みの意を込めながら、相手の自分に対する非難に対し、根拠や理由を示し、反駁(はんばく)、�
��え（うったえ）、甘えなどの気持ちを表す。

Of the types of emotional effect it has, none can be attributed to 物.

There is a hint for"物".

Oh well.
Maybe you'll like [jp.sonic-learning.com] this.

No idea why this is being argued, Wayfarer is acting pretty stupid with a very infantile and futile effort to achieve absolutely nothing.
For someone arguing intelligence based off being 'multilingual', you sure are stubborn and don't catch any real nuances.
All that with a suppressed condescending tone to boot.
''You're wrong even though you're native level and better at Japanese than me, because I've seen others (completely arbitrary) be wrong in their native tongue''.
Your evaluation doesn't change the actual state of being.

He's right, you're wrong, if you think you're right, you're going to stick with wrong knowledge.
Hard and somewhat amusing to believe that you studied 8 languages like this, the fact that you think ''mastery'' in 3 is a feat to be mentioned in this back-and-forth, is even more astonishing.
Even funnier that you do it here, a place with people from all over the world that have a superb grasp on the English language, alongside their own native tongue and other studied languages.
I advise you to check out the different languages that are available on the website, you'll see a good 10+.
Knowing 3 languages is pretty much the bare minimum these days on the internet, especially on websites that deal with the Anime medium, translating and so on, where we have people translating from and to Japanese, using languages that they acquired.
I'm fluent in 4 and also practiced 8+, you'll never catch me doing what you just did, plain moronic.

This post has been edited by OKTF: Jan 27 2015, 20:50

I'll be editing "Naishode Twins" soon, but I have a small issue with the English title.
The original one is:


and I don't know what would be a good translation.
Online translators give me results like "secret twins" or "twins in secret" which sounds awkward at best.

Could someone please help me out?

You could try "Keep it a secret! Twins". If you ask me, Naishode Twins is pretty good as is though, like Onegai Twins.

...

With so much language experience under your belt, I'd have higher expectations for your reading skills. Thira said I wouldn't understand what s/he's saying because I'm not a native speaker, but this is a fallacy, so I argued that I've witnessed native speakers have weird little misunderstandings about all kinds of aspects of their own mother tongues. I didn't say that to gain authority, but just to counter his/her incorrect remark. I don't take pride in being multilingual, to me it's the result of a hobby, and of a lot of possibly wasted time.

If you didn't notice, I used quotes when I claimed to have 'mastered' three languages, too. With critical thinking, you might notice that it reflects how I feel about using that word. I would've been humbler, but then my whole point would've become difficult to convey.

Since you've practiced 8+ languages like me, you should know that's not a very efficient way to spend time if you want to accomplish something significant someday. Why would I, having felt so, act like I was superior to others based on my knowledge of languages? Think about it.

The reason for the argument can be seen if you look at where it starts. I agree the subject is kind of minor, but I like debates, so I don't want to stop until I feel I've proved my point or my point's been disproved.

I'm flattered to have stirred your emotions enough to make you type your first post here, though. And while this is really minor, my account name is "VVayfarer". (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by VVayfarer: Jan 27 2015, 21:11

You could try "Keep it a secret! Twins". If you ask me, Naishode Twins is pretty good as is though, like Onegai Twins.

I didn't look at it that way, but you have a point, thanks.

I'll be editing "Naishode Twins" soon, but I have a small issue with the English title.
The original one is:


and I don't know what would be a good translation.
Online translators give me results like "secret twins" or "twins in secret" which sounds awkward at best.

Could someone please help me out?

'Twins in secret', you could also translate it as 'Secretly twins'.
But in this case the latter sounds a bit more strange, plus the former is also linguistically the better translation.
Just giving options though.
The online translators weren't that much off.

You only scoop superficial meanings and I talk about structure of sentences.
That's why I said the subject is "worth no longer".
So, you don't need to reply at all except for your self‐satisfaction.

Different meanings often equals different words, so according to what you're saying, my arguments are more to the point than yours. I do agree this discussion has become quite long for such a minor thing though.

There is a hint for"物".

I know, and I feel this is the point you've been trying to prove here. But as I said, usage of もの・もん by that definition is only emotional, which makes it very different from 物.

Oh well.
Maybe you'll like [jp.sonic-learning.com] this.

That seems to lump 物 and 者 together, too. Then again, that's not as far-fetched as with もの, though.

Maybe your philosophy is to try to consider connections between words more than differences. But since もの both conveys something unique and is used in a grammatically different way than 物, they're not the same. I guess since we disagree on a fundamental point like this, further debate would probably be fruitless.

For what it's worth, Thira's explanation is very close to what I was taught myself. It's a modern-feeling contraction, but Thira is correct about its roots.

UF

Hello again, I want to know after I translated the words, is there a trick to match them in the right order ? Everytime i try to translate I dont know how to formulate the sentence. I want to finish the set I posted but right now i want to translate this [rule34.xxx] http://rule34.xxx/index.php?page=post&...&id=1639628 ASAP and my jap is no good. Any help for a starter ?

Thanks

If I understand what you are asking, I'm afraid it's something of an impossible question. Obviously you will use particles (ga, ha, ni, wo, etc...) to establish discrete sentence components, but you simply have to understand that Japanese sentence structure can be VERY different from English. It's actually a lot closer to Latin in many senses (though not the passive voice). If you cannot recognize and interpret Japanese particles, then you really need to hit the books for a bit before translating something. This is JAP 101 level stuff; it is essential to know.

If you CAN recognize particles, then you have to struggle with how much of the original sentence structure you actually want to preserve. Often times the stricter you are about this, the less it will sound natural in English. Sometimes there is little to be done except to completely reword a sentence for a translation.

If you are looking for a hard and fast rule, pick up a different language. Translating Japanese to English is as much art and technique as knowledge.

UF

Well i knew this wasnt easy but id hoped to be able to do a bunch on my own since translator can be pricey
Thanks ill try to find a way to get what I want

Hello, I need help to recognize this kanji.

顔ちいさいな…

顔ちいさいな…

Wow, thx.

I'd like this title translated please. All I have is "Victim Wife" but it looks like it should be more than that. Full title is "Zoku Mesu Kachou Jogeza - Ikenie Duma"

Jinsukeya! Nice.

This is somewhat difficult, and might need some creativity to make it sound natural. A faithful (-ish) choice could be 'Sequal: Female Manager Jogeza - Sacrificial Wife’. Kachou means 'Section Manager', but it sounds kind of detailed, so 'manager' should do. 'Jogeza' is a play on words for 女 and 'dogeza', which is a position in which the person has prostrated themselves before someone or something else.

続 could also be translated as 'Continuation:' or something.

^ Awesome, thanks. I think I can work something out with that.

Also, glad to see somebody who can translate likes Jinsukeya.