[X] My Assistant

Buyback program for pre-patch artifacts @ 20k. We were encouraged to be market makers, we shouldn't have the value of our stock wiped out. Again.

I have close to 1000 artifacts saved up, which used to be worth maybe around 17m.

How about we be allowed to eat these artifacts as normal for energy drinks for a short time? This could be a week or a month, or perhaps forever as long as the artifacts were dropped pre-patch.

This solution wouldn't affect the desired anti-botting effect of the new system (in the long run) and would allow current players to avoid financial disaster.

Alternatively, I like the buyback program that Necromusume proposed. Even better, just have artifacts temporarily (maybe even permanently) drop 100k instead of an energy drink. That way we could eat our artifacts and get the intended stat boosts, and keep the credits we expected.

Even if artifacts dropped 100k permanently (or 20k every time) that wouldn't affect the desired anti-botting effect of the new system. Or artifacts could just drop (way) more hath instead, when the hath roll comes up.

I hope for something good to come from PAs because right now I'm regretting maxing archaeologist training. Maybe a +exp gain consumable?

After further thought, it would probably be best if artifacts just permanently dropped 20k each time they are consumed (or dropped 100k in place of the energy drink drop, or comparable haths instead, etc).

That's the only way to be fair towards people who have invested in Archaeologist training. Also it seems pointless to have an item that is worthless for people who have maxed their stat bonuses. It becomes just a waste of screen space.

This solution wouldn't affect the desired anti-botting effect of the new system (in the long run) and would allow current players to avoid financial disaster.

Now that I think more, I think for this claim to be true, all energy drink trading will have to be removed, Market included maybe. Dunno. I might be misunderstanding how this change was intended to hamper botters.

or perhaps forever as long as the artifacts were dropped pre-patch

i think this would require a too-deep level of logging. or at least, a level of logging that's not worth the trouble

For me removing ED is unfair, especialy for bronze star and silver star who have the Long Gone Before Daylight Hath Perks....

Maybe replacing it with hat is more suitable.

And about the catgolds fair? They've paid 10 times as much as gold star, but they only get 1 more. What kind of ""fairness"" are we talking about here?

This is another "fix" that they didn't even bother to think about. And if you believe tenboro, he hasn't even discussed it with the moderators, who at least play the game and at least partially understand it.

There is a huge difference between the system creating credits every time someone hands in an item, and another player trading you for it. And I'm not going to create a precedence of "items that drop in value due to an update get bailed out".

he hasn't even discussed it with the moderators, who at least play the game and at least partially understand it.

Yesterday: "corrupt moderators knew about this change beforehand and took advantage to stock up"

Today: "corrupt moderators should have been consulted about this change beforehand"

Yep, definitely no way to win that one.

The only way to make some changes in a way that is "fair" is to not make any announcements beforehand, privately or otherwise, then tweak it after the fact.

The only way to make some changes in a way that is "fair" is to not make any announcements beforehand, privately or otherwise, then tweak it after the fact.

To do " fair " you have to at least understand your audience. Which, of course, you don't have.


In the last 3-5 years, we can only note the issekai, which is implemented in a month or a month and a half. I'm not even talking about the changes in the gallery. The rest of the updates are just farts in the water.

The circles have probably been developed for 3 years... I'm not even talking about what a "genius idea" this was.

Today: "corrupt moderators should have been consulted about this change beforehand"

And what kind of nonsense are you writing? Don't you understand how it's supposed to be? First you discuss the idea with the people close to you, who are your moderators. Then you pick a couple of people who are ordinary players, and look at the reaction as a whole. Then you draw conclusions, refine your idea and then release it to the public. And then you watch and listen to people's reactions.

After all, it's not for you, you don't play this game. It's for us. And when you don't agree with the players, at least be kind enough to explain why this is the case, not just "I said so." It pains me to see what this game is turning into.

I'm not sure why creating credits would be a problem when that's exactly what the game does every time you kill a monster, or do Dawn of the New Day. Also the game has no problem with eating credits to do things like upgrade weapons (buy catalysts although I think they might be gone now) etc.

In any case, under the presumption that Archaeologist training (as well as hoarded artifacts) should be worth something, perhaps some other tweak can be made. As it stands a whole bunch of stuff suddenly became worthless which seems a bit more extreme than it could be.

Wait, I still have a lot of catalysts saved up. I forget, did they become useless?

Very late to the discussion. I think making Energy Drinks's stamina replenishment work like Infusions (e.g.: +1 stamina regen per hour for the next 10 hours) would probably have worked too?

In any case, under the presumption that Archaeologist training (as well as hoarded artifacts) should be worth something, perhaps some other tweak can be made.

One possibility is to give partial refunds for Archeologist training. That would not solve the problems of artifact hoarders, though.

Of course, this game is largely about trading, supply and demand anyway, so some level of economic crises caused by upredictable inflation (or deflation) spikes should be acceptable. The question is, is this one too extreme or not?

My first reaction to the artifacts change was grief. My rare occasions of celebration as a casual player have been when I get enough tokens to slay the Spaghettimon, when my few monsters bring me an expensive binding – and when an artifact produces an energy drink. Now one of them is gone. And, as a side effect, crystals will become more expensive to buy?

On the other hand, I’m only level 4/10 archaeologist and have only kept 15-ish artifacts, the majority of them for collecting purposes. Compared to many of the folks here, it seems I’m having an easy time.

I admit I haven’t read the whole thread, but just snippets from here and there. Necromusume’s observations and suggestions make a lot of sense to me.

Coding wise, sure, but I feel it would be a lot less intuitive. Also the order book looks prettier with all the rounded numbers.

...And this is where I wholeheartedly agree with Tenboro-sama.

Toying with single credits was both frustrating and funny at the same time. The current system is about as good as I could have possibly suggested as a replacement.

Did you see the price of ED in the market ?

Did you see the price of ED in the market ?

You asking... me?

Maybe you aren’t, but anyways. I did not pay any mind to it, since if I’m not going to sell any in the future, then it probably won’t concern me any more.

Now that I check, the current rate seems to be 123,000/130,000 c. The last time I was able to sell one, I got 90,490 c, and could probably have gotten a bit more with patience.

Your conclusions?

And when you don't agree with the players, at least be kind enough to explain why this is the case, not just "I said so."

Agree with what? I read all your recent posts. As far as I can tell, most of your posts in this thread are complains about moderators being corrupt and knowing things beforehand and complaints that the moderators didn't know beforehand. The only actual questions I can pick out is why the catgirls didn't get more free EDs, and why HV development is so slow. For the former, I didn't want to overemphasize the "gief more monies" angle, and for the latter, you obviously have no idea how long it takes to develop anything nor how much time is actually available to do so - and if you think Isekai is the only thing that was released in the last three years, you need to re-read the updates notes both for EH and HV. I have no idea what else it is you are expecting me to not agree with and explain why is the case.

FWIW, the response I *have* gotten from the mods who "at least play the game and at least partially understand it" on IRC after the fact is:

<Noni> Personally I think this is a good thing. It was a real problem for regular players that some people could seemingly spend 24 hours per day on HV

<nezu> it was inevitable that -something- would need to become untradeable at some point
<nezu> i assumed the reason you hadn't done something like this sooner was just because people will multiaccount at a higher rate?

Could I have made both precursor artifacts and energy drinks completely untradeable instead? I suppose, but I don't think people would have bitched any less, since it would basically mean PAs would be worth the average value of their items instead of that + whatever premium you get from the attribute boost, and EDs would be worth, well, 10 stamina, which would be nothing for people who already don't spend their natural regen.

I'd have written you off as a troll a long time ago if it wasn't for the fact that you are a 10+ year donating member with maxed level, so obviously you actually care about it, and I get that you're angry about something, but I'm not sure what you want me to explain to you. Energy Drinks being farmable was a problem and because of that they are no longer farmable. That's the long and short of it.

I'll want to see it settle out for a couple of days, but plugging the current numbers, artifacts are currently averaging 10,101c since they started trading again which puts the market value of a chaos token at 64,760c. I remember Ichy saying "I would gladly pay 50k for a chaos token" years ago; that's actually pretty close.

Bumping up the crystals to a 40% chance of a full pack would bump the artifact value to 17,632c. Would that sort of change be acceptable? I expect there to be less crystal supply now anyway.

This post has been edited by Necromusume: Mar 27 2023, 20:32

Bumping up the crystals to a 40% chance of a full pack would bump the artifact value to 17,632c. Would that sort of change be acceptable? I expect there to be less crystal supply now anyway.

By pack you mean 1000 of each, yeah? It would still give just one type of crystals, but I could probably bump up the count a bit without upsetting the market, seeing as it's true that fewer EDs means fewer crystals gained from battle. I'll mull it over for a bit, but uh, don't sell them too cheap in the meantime.

The only actual questions I can pick out is why the catgirls didn't get more free EDs, and why HV development is so slow.

Actually, there is one more question there, and a quite unambiguous one at that. I’m being bold to repeat it here, for if we players got something out of it, I’d be among minor profiteers only:

Is it possible to get partial refunds for Archaeologist trainings as well as for artifacts hoarded before the update? If yes, what would be a reasonable level?

As far as I can see, the people asking for this are not in a hurry, they just wish to see a rectification at some point. (However, at least Scremaz has pointed out that the sooner it happens the easier it will be technically for the developer.)

Is it possible to get partial refunds for Archaeologist trainings as well as for artifacts hoarded before the update? If yes, what would be a reasonable level?

I can't see the person I replied to asking that? I answered half of it already, but:

When it comes to the training, the training system doesn't support refunding/reverting trainings, and as far I can remember it has never been done manually in the lifetime of the system. Which means I would have to write a script specifically for doing it and then people would have to individually ask me to do it for them. Both of which would be a bunch of work. Pretty sure that's not going to happen.

When it comes to "refunding" artifacts hoarded before the update, I already answered that.

There is a huge difference between the system creating credits every time someone hands in an item, and another player trading you for it. And I'm not going to create a precedence of "items that drop in value due to an update get bailed out".

Could we have the option to toggle on or off great stamina as the additional stamina drain from great makes it harder for normal players as we lose over 40 stamina before we get below great status.

Also could the amount of stamina that we can bank be increased to more than 99, as casual players that would benefit them as they would be able to grind for longer when we do feel like playing without having any real affect on botters as stamina recovery is the same.

(At Tenboro:)

I see. I did read all of your relevant answers above, but misunderstood a couple of points (most notably my English failed me at what the exact meaning of bail out might be in this context). Thank you for taking the time to make yourself clear.

This post has been edited by Katajanmarja: Mar 27 2023, 23:12

What an interesting discussion.

So according to Tenboro, over the next few days/weeks we should see how the farming bot population and activity slowly decreases due to the restriction of EDs.

With the decreased activity of bot farmers, crystal prices will go up and probably monster food too.
EDs will go up in price, bot farmers will keep buying them as long as it is profitable and compete with each other, until supply and demand stabilizes. Their margings will thin out and there should be less of them.
Gold star members that sell their ED will eat most of the bot farmers income and get a few millions of credits every month.

Honestly, as a casual user, I fear that the amount of credits I need to keep up my monsters fed and happy will grow too much, making the monster lab even less appealing than it is now. I already stopped making more monster beacuse those gluttons eat crystals by the thousands and barely bring in anything useful.

On the other hand, I don't know how many active gold users are out there, but if there are too many I can see the prices of useful equipment and other items increasing further out of my reach. This is a minor worry, though.

To sum it up, poorer poor players as the crystal and food prices increase while the PA decreases in value. Less bot users as the price of ED increase. Richer gold star players as the ED price soars to the sky.

Edit: Oh, tomorrow it will be ten years since I joined this site!

This post has been edited by Alexander44: Mar 28 2023, 02:05