[X] My Assistant

I haven't investigated the changes yet but still think that the small mobs were useful and added variety to the game.

If stamina was the source of complaints, why not just rebalance the stamina system instead so that it drains per monster instead of per round?

I haven't investigated the changes yet but still think that the small mobs were useful and added variety to the game.

If stamina was the source of complaints, why not just rebalance the stamina system instead so that it drains per monster instead of per round?

We already have the equipment wearing that is based on rounds. Why we need a new factor that is related to rounds?

Based on some feedback from various people, I made some additional minor tweaks to arena scaling:

- Tweaked the arena monster scaling to effectively skip the first 25% of arena rounds

(I also did another quick pass on the number of rounds per arena.)

Let me know if you notice any weirdness introduced by this change.

Okay, I tested some of the new arenas and I still think the curve is a little weird - see this table (particularly the exp/stam):

CODE

+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Name                  | Lv  | Rounds | Exp            | Exp/Round    | Stam Cost (>60) | Exp/Stam      | Efficiency Rank |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Eternal Darkness      | 250 |     85 |  80,917,880.00 |   951,975.06 |             5.1 | 15,866,250.98 |               6 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| End of Days           | 225 |     80 |  95,188,012.00 | 1,189,850.15 |             4.8 | 19,830,835.83 |               4 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| The Trio and the Tree | 200 |     75 | 100,256,702.00 | 1,336,756.03 |             4.5 | 22,279,267.11 |               2 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Eve of Death          | 180 |     70 |  90,841,635.00 | 1,297,737.64 |             4.2 | 21,628,960.71 |               3 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| To Kill a God         | 165 |     65 |  92,275,774.00 | 1,419,627.29 |             3.9 | 23,660,454.87 |               1 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Exile                 | 130 |     50 |  51,358,964.00 | 1,027,179.28 |               3 | 17,119,654.67 |               5 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Growing Storm         |  70 |     20 |       13937916 |   696,895.80 |             1.2 | 11,614,930.00 |               7 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+

As you can see, the first two schoolgirl arenas have much lower efficiency for exp per stamina than others around them (DWD didn't have this issue, it was the most efficient pre-patch). I don't know if this is intended - I guess this way there's a choice between trophies for FoS, and exp efficiency - but it might be worth another look.

Besides tweaking the monsters, I guess there's always the arena exp mods to play with. Also, schoolgirls themselves give low exp compared to normal monsters if I recall, though that wouldn't fix Eternal Darkness by itself.

I haven't investigated the changes yet but still think that the small mobs were useful and added variety to the game.

If stamina was the source of complaints, why not just rebalance the stamina system instead so that it drains per monster instead of per round?

It's not like they're gone entirely; it's mostly high-level arenas that were affected by the change. (And it's kind of weird that high-level ones always start off really easy, sometimes easier the higher level they are, and waste your stamina with a ton of low-density rounds...)

Also for what it's worth: I also like the stamina drain per monster rather than per round, but it would definitely make it harder to predict stamina consumption without further UI changes (like arenas showing a total monster count as well as rounds), and it requires some more in-depth work than we're likely to get in a minor tweak.

This post has been edited by Nezu: Jul 8 2021, 12:57

Splendid.

A minor question about future Persistent changes regarding the removal of low-level arenas for high-level players:

What about Tokens?

The bonus tokens from daily arena clears are the top source of Chaos Token income for steadily growing the monster lab. Can level 500 players simply expect a lower token income from now on, when most of the arenas are done away with?

Turns out I was in the middle of The Trio and the Tree when the change happened so I got a unique corrupted experience. Exposes a bit of the internals.

CODE

Mon Count    Start    End     Span
Corrupted The Trio and the Tree
4             1       56      56  Same as Persistent
5            57       68      12  Same as Persistent
6            69       81      13  Same as Persistent
7            82       91      10  2 less probably when the change happened
8            92       99       8  2 more

To Kill a God
5             1       31      31
6            32       40       9
7            41       50      10
8            51       60      10
9            61       64       4

Eternal Darkness
2             1        9       9
3            10       42      33
4            43       47       5
5            48       70      23
6            71       84      14

A minor question about future Persistent changes regarding the removal of low-level arenas for high-level players:

What about Tokens?

The bonus tokens from daily arena clears are the top source of Chaos Token income for steadily growing the monster lab. Can level 500 players simply expect a lower token income from now on, when most of the arenas are done away with?

The missing arenas gave around 2 tokens, I believe slightly less. I expect the two new arenas to have a 100% Token Bonus. So hopeful the tokens for all arenas should be very slightly increased.

- The double stamina regeneration was removed from the "Early Bird" bonus period (the 8-9 days between the solstice/start of season and the end of the month). Instead, the bonus equipment droprate during this period was changed from 2x to 5x.

Instead of an "Early Bird" period, any bonuses should apply during the first X stamina points used in Isekai so people who can't drop everything & play during that time window don't miss out. Unlike "Last Spurt", it doesn't need to be coordinated with the other players.

The missing arenas gave around 2 tokens, I believe slightly less. I expect the two new arenas to have a 100% Token Bonus. So hopeful the tokens for all arenas should be very slightly increased.

But how much longer is it going to take to do the 400 & 500 round arenas compared to doing 12 through 45?

But how much longer is it going to take to do the 400 & 500 round arenas compared to doing 12 through 45?

depends on your gear. That's a great incentive to get amazing gear, and really optimize your play style

Potential bug, I just hit level 21 in Isekai, I think it said I gained a mastery point, but there's still 0 unspent on the abilities screen. Will keep an eye out when I hit level 30 & 31.

depends on your gear. That's a great incentive to get amazing gear, and really optimize your play style

And move to the Netherlands so I can get 3 t/s instead of 1.7? Legendary arenas are too slow largely because of that, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Edit: Now level 30, and I have one unspent Mastery Point, but didn't get a message about it when levelling. So we get the point 1 level early, but the message at the usual level?

This post has been edited by Necromusume: Jul 8 2021, 19:33

Based on some feedback from various people, I made some additional minor tweaks to arena scaling:

- Tweaked the arena monster scaling to effectively skip the first 25% of arena rounds

(I also did another quick pass on the number of rounds per arena.)

Let me know if you notice any weirdness introduced by this change.

So that's what happened. I was around level 97 of Trio+Tree when I got a "Defeated" message out of nowhere. Must have been the changeover.

Initializing Item World (Round 5 / 20) ...
You gain one Mastery Point!
You have reached Level 31!

Now level 33 after the IW, and 0 unspent mastery points.
So it's a minor bug, we get them at levels evenly divisible by 10, but get the message one level later like in Persistent.

[edit]
Just hit level 61 and no mastery point message; fixed already?

This post has been edited by Necromusume: Jul 8 2021, 20:52

So it's a minor bug, we get them at levels evenly divisible by 10, but get the message one level later like in Persistent.

Oh. Should be fixed now on Isekai, let me know if it's not.

Based on some feedback from various people, I made some additional minor tweaks to arena scaling:

- Tweaked the arena monster scaling to effectively skip the first 25% of arena rounds

(I also did another quick pass on the number of rounds per arena.)

Let me know if you notice any weirdness introduced by this change.

Neat.

A suggestion for SG arenas:
- they all should start with max number of monsters, and just have SGs number change with round increase.

Does this will change, I think this is too difficult, it will spend too much time in this difficulty

I spend 30 min to clean X20 Eternal Darkness before before this fix.
I think "A Dance With Dragons" will spend more than 30 min to clean

Welcome to melee.

Splendid.

Subarashii indeed.

I'm glad we now have the +20% XP bonus incentive to enter the tower daily, however, I don't really like the 1 daily clear limit.

It's cool that we can eventually get upwards of 1000% XP bonus, as leveling past 300 last season felt super sluggish, but earning a dripfeed of +20% XP bonus per day doesn't feel right, as we'd easily be able to clear 2 extra floors in the previous season with the extra 2 attempts.

I've started this season late yet again, but am getting close to lvl200, yet I'm still stuck at floor 5, soon 6 later on today, when it could've been 15, and 18 by today's New Dawn, which would've put me a lot closer to fighting monsters at my level range, instead of everything being 1KO for days on end, and earned me a much better XP bonus while at it by now.

As for other feedback, the amount of soul fragments we get is still very limited, just like last season, but I guess that's intentional so we don't carry over too much stuff to persistent when the season is over, but it simply makes the ability to soulfuse equipment 100 levels higher in isekai pointless.

My previous suggestion of getting 10 fragments x floor cleared still stands, so we'd get 100 SF for clearing floor 10, 500 for clearing floor 50, and so on.

Considering how we are also limited on stamina this season, I believe soulfusing gear to have an easier time getting potency exp in Item Worlds will be essential, but having to buy fragments in order to do that is just demotivating.,

Initializing Grindfest (Round 86 / 1000) ...
You gain one Mastery Point!
You have reached Level 70!
You gain 4631 EXP!

Yes, it's fixed.

[edit]
Just got whacked in Grindfest, and my club is still at 94%. Was defeat durability loss reduced or eliminated?

[edit 2]
It's not in the the wiki or the patch notes for either version, but it looks like defeat durability loss is reduced from 10% to ~2%.

After deliberately throwing an IW on the first round,
Club 79% -> 77%
Rapier 100% -> 97%
Helmet 52% -> 50%
Breastplate 83% -> 81%

This post has been edited by Necromusume: Jul 8 2021, 21:49

Initializing Grindfest (Round 86 / 1000) ...
You gain one Mastery Point!
You have reached Level 70!
You gain 4631 EXP!

Yes, it's fixed.

[edit]
Just got whacked in Grindfest, and my club is still at 94%. Was defeat durability loss reduced or eliminated?

[edit 2]
It's not in the the wiki or the patch notes for either version, but it looks like defeat durability loss is reduced from 10% to ~2%.

After deliberately throwing an IW on the first round,
Club 79% -> 77%
Rapier 100% -> 97%
Helmet 52% -> 50%
Breastplate 83% -> 81%

It's because you're below level 100. See https://ehwiki.org/wiki/The_Forge#Repair

Tweaked the arena monster scaling to effectively skip the first 25% of arena rounds

I also did another quick pass on the number of rounds per arena

I still think the curve is a little weird - see this table (particularly the exp/stam):

CODE

+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Name                  | Lv  | Rounds | Exp            | Exp/Round    | Stam Cost (>60) | Exp/Stam      | Efficiency Rank |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Eternal Darkness      | 250 |     85 |  80,917,880.00 |   951,975.06 |             5.1 | 15,866,250.98 |               6 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| End of Days           | 225 |     80 |  95,188,012.00 | 1,189,850.15 |             4.8 | 19,830,835.83 |               4 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| The Trio and the Tree | 200 |     75 | 100,256,702.00 | 1,336,756.03 |             4.5 | 22,279,267.11 |               2 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Eve of Death          | 180 |     70 |  90,841,635.00 | 1,297,737.64 |             4.2 | 21,628,960.71 |               3 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| To Kill a God         | 165 |     65 |  92,275,774.00 | 1,419,627.29 |             3.9 | 23,660,454.87 |               1 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Exile                 | 130 |     50 |  51,358,964.00 | 1,027,179.28 |               3 | 17,119,654.67 |               5 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Growing Storm         |  70 |     20 |       13937916 |   696,895.80 |             1.2 | 11,614,930.00 |               7 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+

Besides tweaking the monsters, I guess there's always the arena exp mods to play with. Also, schoolgirls themselves give low exp compared to normal monsters

It's not like they're gone entirely; it's mostly high-level arenas that were affected by the change.

Tried a few arenas today; the changes are as described.

All arenas were affected by the change, not just high-level arenas. I do miss the easy rounds. Certainly we as players can adjust to either way, but this does rebalance the game and different fighting styles slightly. Mage and 1H may be slightly better than before due to bigger mobs; is that what we want?

I don't think we should be so focused on exp/stamina. That is an isekai issue but this change will affect persistent as well. Monsters/stamina or drops/stamina may be a more reasonable way to look at things. As mentioned, the arena exp mods and schoolgirls giving less exp than normal monsters complicate the exp/stamina performance.

With shrunken arenas and lost access to old arenas, this is now a double whammy of less monsters/credits/exp available per day than before.

Okay, I tested some of the new arenas and I still think the curve is a little weird - see this table (particularly the exp/stam):

CODE

+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Name                  | Lv  | Rounds | Exp            | Exp/Round    | Stam Cost (>60) | Exp/Stam      | Efficiency Rank |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Eternal Darkness      | 250 |     85 |  80,917,880.00 |   951,975.06 |             5.1 | 15,866,250.98 |               6 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| End of Days           | 225 |     80 |  95,188,012.00 | 1,189,850.15 |             4.8 | 19,830,835.83 |               4 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| The Trio and the Tree | 200 |     75 | 100,256,702.00 | 1,336,756.03 |             4.5 | 22,279,267.11 |               2 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Eve of Death          | 180 |     70 |  90,841,635.00 | 1,297,737.64 |             4.2 | 21,628,960.71 |               3 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| To Kill a God         | 165 |     65 |  92,275,774.00 | 1,419,627.29 |             3.9 | 23,660,454.87 |               1 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Exile                 | 130 |     50 |  51,358,964.00 | 1,027,179.28 |               3 | 17,119,654.67 |               5 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+
| Growing Storm         |  70 |     20 |       13937916 |   696,895.80 |             1.2 | 11,614,930.00 |               7 |
+-----------------------+-----+--------+----------------+--------------+-----------------+---------------+-----------------+

As you can see, the first two schoolgirl arenas have much lower efficiency for exp per stamina than others around them (DWD didn't have this issue, it was the most efficient pre-patch). I don't know if this is intended - I guess this way there's a choice between trophies for FoS, and exp efficiency - but it might be worth another look.

Nezu, I did the same thing as you, but for the low stamina condition (<60). The result was similar.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/vjG4Ux8.jpg)

And for comparison, I did the same thing with the Persistent numbers that I had written down in March of this year.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/IuT9Rmz.jpg)

As you can see, the ranks are very similar (within a certain margin of error).

I hope I haven't made any mistakes. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Agreed.
Tower should be unlimited.
Floor above 40-50 are hard stops already, no need to gate players from the first easy floors.
Especially because, well, they do cost stamina so there's still a limit you have to keep in mind.

That said, I hope we will see the tower added to persistent as a non competitive endless arena mode (copied without any ranking system other than display only aka it tells you how many people are at a higher floor than you and that's it). I really want to challenge my persistent self with the tower and go as far as I can...
I changed my user title to that too.

I don't think we should be so focused on exp/stamina.

No. We should. Otherwise higher arenas having an exp multiplier would be quite pointless.
What's the point of having an artificial higher multiplier if the exp received is still smaller than the previous arena's?


edit: also, it seems like that with the last change to arenas, now round numbers finally scale up to 100 in the correct way and not just cap at TT&TT already, nice to see a suggestion of mine was implemented... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by Juggernaut Santa: Jul 9 2021, 04:48

I just wish the 2.5x arena had 1 more monster per round, but overall these changes to round numbers seem fine.

I just hope we'll be able to do low level arenas in persistent. Why delete an entire page of arenas? Just invert the order and display the higher arenas first, lol.