[X] My Assistant

I think it depends on your level of wealth and your current power. Most players can't dream of DD6~9 and max forged Slaughter until way past level 500. With infusions, anyone can afford it in a short term, but if you add up the cost to continually use it, how rich should you have to be for it to be worth the cost?

Are 2920 infusions worth more than 10.5 hours?

I guess that's very roughly 600k credits. I dunno, to me that's a lot of money. For nearly all my life I only made 10k per day in arenas. Nowdays I can make more, I don't know how much, but maybe 60k per hour? DwD takes me over half an hour.

So to play for 10 hours I will only make 600k. It's equal to this 600k infusions cost. So doesn't matter one way or the other. Doesn't it suck to be a slow 1H player? ;)

DD1 is roughly 8 million credits, but it increases damage more so that would be equivalent to 2.7 million credits scaled down. But DD1 lasts forever; if you played for 5 years then infusing would be more expensive than DD1.

People do a lot in this game for a 2-3% increase. Increasing stuff by small increments is pretty much the goal for many since the game has no real ending.
Also you didn't add experience gain in the 10 hours comparison - even if let's say infusions don't give you a credits gain, you'll end up with more experience. Not a large difference but then again, small increments, etc.

And hitting stuff for more damage and with more strikes is just cool. That's enough of a reason tbh.

I guess that's very roughly 600k credits. I dunno, to me that's a lot of money. For nearly all my life I only made 10k per day in arenas. Nowdays I can make more, I don't know how much, but maybe 60k per hour? DwD takes me over half an hour.

So to play for 10 hours I will only make 600k. It's equal to this 600k infusions cost. So doesn't matter one way or the other. Doesn't it suck to be a slow 1H player? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

DD1 is roughly 8 million credits, but it increases damage more so that would be equivalent to 2.7 million credits scaled down. But DD1 lasts forever; if you played for 5 years then infusing would be more expensive than DD1.

600k is too much, flames/cold/lightning are worth no more than 120C/piece so we are talking about 300-350k or 30k/hour.
I also assumed you were testing with 2 infusions, but on hindsight 3% seems too low, if it was 3% for each infusion then you can halve the number of infusions to 1460, for a yearly expense of ~160k.
For DwD you would want a dark or holy infusion which would speed up things well above 3% (dark/holy strike do more damage than void against 3 schoolgirls out of 4) so it would need another test entirely.

All in all unless 1H players have very bad clearing speed (very low level, weak equipments, low t/s) infusions are still worth the cost.

The comparison with DD1 is pretty strange, it's apple vs orange, you can pay infusions as you go and they repay themselves immediately, DD1 requires an upfront cost that you may not have available and needs months/years to pay for itself.

Typical monsters at level 500 have between 70%~75% PMit and reaching 80% with chaos upgrades; we might assume they likewise have a similarly high amount of MMit. So I was wondering, how are non-Imperil holy and dark mages viable? Aren't they supposed to be faster than Imperil holy and dark mages, or Imperil elemental mages?

How do mages get through that humongous MMit without Imperil? Prof factor only affects elemental mitigation right?

1H Comparison: Elemental prefix / Featherweight / Ethereal / Haste and Shadow Veil

Equipment
- Peerless Shocking Rapier of Slaughter (Setup A and B)
- Peerless Ethereal Rapier of Slaughter (Setup C and D)
- Peerless Force Shield and Power Slaughters

Key point
- Setup A vs Setup B: No burden (Ethereal or Featherweight Shard) increases an evade chance. Is this a big penalty for 1H?
- Setup B vs Setup C: Elec Strike on Saturday vs Dark Strike on Monday
- Setup C vs Setup D: Haste and Shadow Veil decrease counter-blocks. How much is the effect?

CODE

==============================================================================
                  |      Setup A |      Setup B |      Setup C |      Setup D
==============================================================================
           Rapier |     Shocking |     Shocking |     Ethereal |     Ethereal
           Burden |         61.6 |         55.3 |         55.3 |         55.3
     Evade Chance |        5.7 % |        8.2 % |        8.2 % |        8.2 %
                  |              |     Feather- |              |    Haste and
                  |              |       weight |              |  Shadow Veil
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Day |     Saturday |     Saturday |       Monday |       Monday
         Strike 1 |  Elec Strike |  Elec Strike |  Dark Strike |  Dark Strike
     Spike Shield |        Flame |        Flame |        Flame |        Flame
         Strike 2 |  Cold Strike |  Cold Strike |  Cold Strike |  Cold Strike
==============================================================================
            Kills |        8,349 |        8,336 |        8,336 |        8,362
            Turns |       17,400 |       17,349 |       17,358 |       18,679
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Attacks |       15,664 |       15,595 |       15,608 |       17,181
  Parried Attacks |          349 |          403 |          369 |          258
              OFC |          318 |          321 |          317 |          329
   Spirit Engaged |          304 |          306 |          303 |          335
  Spirit Disabled |          107 |          121 |          119 |           93
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Cure |           54 |           30 |           40 |           21
        Full-Cure |            4 |            1 |            3 |            -
            Regen |          103 |          101 |          107 |           78
      Heartseeker |           35 |           34 |           31 |           28
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Health Draught |          328 |          328 |          328 |          240
     Mana Draught |           24 |           23 |           28 |           24
   Spirit Draught |           54 |           49 |           50 |           36
    Health Potion |            - |            1 |            - |            -
      Mana Potion |            - |            - |            - |            -
    Spirit Potion |            1 |            1 |            - |            -
       Health Gem |           12 |           14 |           13 |           15
         Mana Gem |           14 |           11 |            9 |            7
       Spirit Gem |           10 |            8 |           22 |           15
       Mystic Gem |           19 |            2 |           11 |           19
==============================================================================
  Counter-attacks |       29,278 |       29,013 |       28,991 |       20,745
==============================================================================
  Monster Attacks |       52,290 |       52,795 |       52,630 |       40,875
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Evade |        2,303 |        3,437 |        3,485 |       10,558
                  |     (4.40 %) |     (6.51 %) |     (6.62 %) |    (25.83 %)
            Block |       29,189 |       29,040 |       28,739 |       18,044
                  |    (55.82 %) |    (55.01 %) |    (54.61 %) |    (44.14 %)
            Parry |       12,760 |       12,499 |       12,442 |        7,556
                  |    (24.40 %) |    (23.67 %) |    (23.64 %) |    (18.49 %)
              Hit |        8,038 |        7,819 |        7,964 |        4,717
                  |    (15.37 %) |    (14.81 %) |    (15.13 %) |    (11.54 %)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Monster Skills |       12,924 |       12,692 |       12,917 |        9,889
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Evade |          548 |          859 |          831 |        2,605
                  |     (4.24 %) |     (6.77 %) |     (6.43 %) |    (26.34 %)
            Block |        7,274 |        6,993 |        7,159 |        4,289
                  |    (56.28 %) |    (55.10 %) |    (55.42 %) |    (43.37 %)
            Parry |        3,169 |        3,044 |        3,062 |        1,822
                  |    (24.52 %) |    (23.98 %) |    (23.71 %) |    (18.42 %)
              Hit |        1,933 |        1,796 |        1,865 |        1,173
                  |    (14.96 %) |    (14.15 %) |    (14.44 %) |    (11.86 %)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Monster Spells |        2,670 |        2,810 |        2,678 |        2,226
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Evade |          105 |          173 |          165 |          562
                  |     (3.93 %) |     (6.16 %) |     (6.16 %) |    (25.25 %)
            Block |        1,471 |        1,578 |        1,502 |          967
                  |    (55.09 %) |    (56.16 %) |    (56.09 %) |    (43.44 %)
            Parry |            - |            - |            - |            -
              Hit |        1,094 |        1,059 |        1,011 |          697
                  |    (40.97 %) |    (37.69 %) |    (37.75 %) |    (31.31 %)
==============================================================================

1. Cold Strike (NOT Arctic) is the best for grindfest, IW and normal Arenas
1-1. It is because Flame spike shield (damage reduction) is the best. Frost (speed reduction) and Storm (miss chance increase) reduce the counter-attacks. Shock (evade and Resist reduction) does nothing.
1-2. Holy and Dark Strikes are the best against School Girls.

2. Elemental prefix (burden 6.3) vs Ethereal (burden 0, or featherweight charm)
2-1. The evasion difference (1100) between Setup A (2300~) and B/C (3400~) is noticeable.
2-2. But the number is small compared to the total number of attacks (52000~), blocks, parries and
2-3. And Counter-attacks (29000~) too. This is because the number of Counter-Attacks is limited to 3 per a turn.
2-4. As a result, there is no difference in the total number of turns.

3. Turn off Haste and Shadow Veil if you are strong enough.

4. Analysis of Strikes
- NOT ENTIRE ATTACKS: Attacks with 3 strikes only
- Strikes don't 'crit' now, so I treated 'strike hits' after 'You crit' as 'strike crits'.
- Focus on the average hit damage.

CODE

- Dark Strike (Monday) and Cold Strike (Flame spike)
=======================================================================================================================
            - |   total |       damage |  average ||    hit |  average ||   crit |  average |  crit rate |  crit bonus
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          You |  12,027 |  315,848,858 |   26,262 ||  5,538 |   19,361 ||  6,489 |   32,151 |    53.95 % |    166.06 %
  Dark Strike |  12,027 |   62,400,600 |    5,188 ||  5,538 |    5,396 ||  6,489 |    5,011 |    53.95 % |     92.86 %
  Cold Strike |  12,027 |   55,748,816 |    4,635 ||  5,538 |    4,817 ||  6,489 |    4,480 |    53.95 % |     93.00 %
  Void Strike |  12,027 |  111,966,181 |    9,310 ||  5,538 |    9,665 ||  6,489 |    9,006 |    53.95 % |     93.18 %
=======================================================================================================================

- Elec Strike (Saturday) and Cold Strike (Flame spike)
=======================================================================================================================
            - |   total |       damage |  average ||    hit |  average ||   crit |  average |  crit rate |  crit bonus
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          You |  11,979 |  315,356,105 |   26,326 ||  5,415 |   19,006 ||  6,564 |   32,364 |    54.80 % |    170.28 %
  Elec Strike |  11,979 |   55,752,039 |    4,654 ||  5,415 |    4,783 ||  6,564 |    4,548 |    54.80 % |     95.10 %
  Cold Strike |  11,979 |   55,113,393 |    4,601 ||  5,415 |    4,701 ||  6,564 |    4,518 |    54.80 % |     96.10 %
  Void Strike |  11,979 |  110,848,085 |    9,254 ||  5,415 |    9,511 ||  6,564 |    9,041 |    54.80 % |     95.06 %
=======================================================================================================================

- Dark Strike and Cold Strike (Wednesday)
=======================================================================================================================
            - |   total |       damage |  average ||    hit |  average ||   crit |  average |  crit rate |  crit bonus
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          You |  12,118 |  321,884,265 |   26,562 ||  5,523 |   19,157 ||  6,595 |   32,764 |    54.42 % |    171.03 %
  Dark Strike |  12,118 |   51,088,053 |    4,216 ||  5,523 |    4,342 ||  6,595 |    4,110 |    54.42 % |     94.67 %
  Cold Strike |  12,118 |   60,016,869 |    4,953 ||  5,523 |    5,097 ||  6,595 |    4,832 |    54.42 % |     94.80 %
  Void Strike |  12,118 |  113,398,205 |    9,358 ||  5,523 |    9,612 ||  6,595 |    9,145 |    54.42 % |     95.13 %
=======================================================================================================================


- Main Attack: 19,006 - 19,361
- Void Strike: almost 50 % (9,511 - 9,665)
- Dark Strike (day bonus): 27.87 % (5,396 / 19,361)
- Cold Strike (day bonus): 26.61 % (5,097 / 19,157)
- Elec Strike (day bonus): 25.17 % (4,783 / 19,006)
- Cold Strike (spike shield): 24.73 % (4,701 / 19,006), 24.88 % (4,817 / 19,361)
- Dark Strike               : 22.67 % (4,342 / 19,157)

This post has been edited by sssss2: Oct 28 2019, 02:07

I think Cold Strike is best against normal enemies but it's not fully proven. I found a mistake in your original Research for 1H elemental comparison. So it needs to be proved again for today's monster population. The answer does not depend on player level but it depends on average encountered monster PL.

At the time of Research for 1H your result was that Cold Strike and Dark Strike are almost exactly equal, after I tried to fix your method. Today, Cold Strike should be better. But if a lot of new players make weak PL monsters, then Dark Strike could become better again.

Since you have new rapiers now, a Shocking and an Ethereal one, you can repeat the old test without the mistake. The mistake is that when your script gathers the average damage of each element, it artificially favors the First Element. So if you gather data with your Shocking rapier, your result is biased and wrong towards Shocking.

If you gather data with your Ethereal rapier and use 2 infusions, the result will be biased towards the element you infuse first. The bias comes from the order in which the strikes hit the enemy in the battle log.

CODE

==============================================================================
                  |      Setup A |      Setup B |      Setup C |      Setup D
==============================================================================
           Rapier |     Shocking |     Shocking |     Ethereal |     Ethereal
           Burden |         61.6 |         55.3 |         55.3 |         55.3
     Evade Chance |        5.7 % |        8.2 % |        8.2 % |        8.2 %
                  |              |     Feather- |              |    Haste and
                  |              |       weight |              |  Shadow Veil
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Day |     Saturday |     Saturday |       Monday |       Monday
         Strike 1 |  Elec Strike |  Elec Strike |  Dark Strike |  Dark Strike
     Spike Shield |        Flame |        Flame |        Flame |        Flame
         Strike 2 |  Cold Strike |  Cold Strike |  Cold Strike |  Cold Strike
==============================================================================
            Kills |        8,349 |        8,336 |        8,336 |        8,362
            Turns |       17,400 |       17,349 |       17,358 |       18,679
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comparing Setup B and C, this suggests that Elec Strike is better than Dark Strike. I predict the Dark Strike grindfest should be 1% faster. I guess it could be very bad luck? Perhaps OFC created randomness.

We can estimate the theoretical loss in turns due to the 25% Evade of Shadow Veil. Using some of your old Research for 1H typical data, the loss is 25%*0.75/(0.75+2.4) ≈ 6%. Another way to calculate it is [2.4+0.75/(100%-25%)]/[2.4+0.75] ≈ 1.08 = 8%. For your test today I believe the 6% number is appropriate.

Your Setup D used Haste and Shadow Veil. The turn difference is 18679 / 17358 = 7.6% this means about 6% comes from Shadow Veil and 1.6% comes from Haste.

You proved that 2.5% Evade is not noticeable to your turns. This is pretty easy to believe. This is 1/10 of Shadow Veil so the difference to turns should be 0.6% you should not notice it.

In general, Haste is much better than Shadow Veil, Wind Shield, or Cold Shield for a 1H player. Turn off Shadow Veil first if you are strong enough. As I tested recently, Haste is very good on 1H. I believe Haste is better than Spirit Shield below level 400.

Typical monsters at level 500 have between 70%~75% PMit and reaching 80% with chaos upgrades; we might assume they likewise have a similarly high amount of MMit. So I was wondering, how are non-Imperil holy and dark mages viable? Aren't they supposed to be faster than Imperil holy and dark mages, or Imperil elemental mages?

How do mages get through that humongous MMit without Imperil? Prof factor only affects elemental mitigation right?

brute force. Holy has 'breached defence' which helps a bit. But dark, it's just not optimal and brute force through all that MMit is all we have. It just saves casting imperil all the time, that's all.

Mind you, in arena's brute force rocks. Only in PFFEST does dark mage suck without imperil. Rich bored players just throw in a couple of gums at the end and that's how it's viable.

I'm thinking that Breached Defense will help way more than one might expect at level 500, because when monsters have 80% MMit (albeit most will have lower) then a 10% Mitigation Reduction actually results in a whopping 1.4x damage improvement.

I'm having a hard time envisioning how brute force can be faster. Wouldn't it only take like 3~6 turns to Imperil all the monsters? And in exchange you can cut their MMit from 80% to 40% which is basically doing 3x damage. The numbers are a bit simplified and exaggerated but that's how I'm currently calculating it.

I guess it won't matter if Holy mage just blows everyone away in a few turns but I have no idea what maging looks like yet. The damage of the Holy and Dark spells seem roughly the same as elemental spells. I think the holy and dark staffs happen to be better, though I'm not sure by how much.

If most monsters really have 70% MMit (no chaos) then the MMit halving from Imperil only results in 2x damage. Brute forcing seems more viable under this comparison. Still, this analysis might suggest that if Tenboro increased the maximum player level, or increased the stats of monsters, that elemental mages could become better than Holy and Dark.

This post has been edited by BlueWaterSplash: Oct 22 2019, 12:38

I'm thinking that Breached Defense will help way more than one might expect at level 500, because when monsters have 80% MMit (albeit most will have lower) then a 10% Mitigation Reduction actually results in a whopping 1.4x damage improvement.

I'm having a hard time envisioning how brute force can be faster. Wouldn't it only take like 3~6 turns to Imperil all the monsters? And in exchange you can cut their MMit from 80% to 40% which is basically doing 3x damage. The numbers are a bit simplified and exaggerated but that's how I'm currently calculating it.

I guess it won't matter if Holy mage just blows everyone away in a few turns but I have no idea what maging looks like yet. The damage of the Holy and Dark spells seem roughly the same as elemental spells. I think the holy and dark staffs happen to be better, though I'm not sure by how much.

If most monsters really have 70% MMit (no chaos) then the MMit halving from Imperil only results in 2x damage. Brute forcing seems more viable under this comparison. Still, this analysis might suggest that if Tenboro increased the maximum player level, or increased the stats of monsters, that elemental mages could become better than Holy and Dark.

So part of the reason non-imperil can work compared is that mages have lots and lots of damage. Imperiled monsters are 1shot by the T3 in almost all cases - possibly excluding max-level giants, and when they get a 50% resist. This means that beyond the threshold required to reach that sort of damage - relatively low! - there are few turn savings from things like peerless-level EDB, radiant phases, DD levels, etc. You do still gain a few turns here and there against pesky giants (see sssss2's numbers - for comparison, as a lower geared but still fully forged elec mage with a very nice redwood staff - I do a similar number of T3s, but more T2s and T1s - maybe 200 of each more).

Non-imperil, however, can make the full use of that raw damage on every round. But it may also be faster in real-time because it avoids the tedium of casting imperil (though it's also more dangerous and will require more healing, because of spell time modifiers).

Elemental is about as good as dark, if not marginally better, for non-imperil. The dark debuff is not that good. Some of the problems faced by dark players include not being able to reach 1.0 prof factor as 4+1 unless you're using a Katalox staff rather than Willow, and slower natural spell cast speeds on their damaging spells making them take more attacks.

In contrast, elemental mages do the same amount of damage, but with arguably better debuffs (elec for raw damage, cold and wind both have excellent survival increases) and can reach 1.0 using more common elemental redwoods (staff distribution is equal across types, but elemental prefixes are 15% each rather than holy/dark's 10%, and while Katalox has 1 fewer suffix it has even distribution across them, while Redwood is weighted towards Destruction). Elemental mages also use less mana! for what little that matters (both as a dark mage and elec mage I have been comfortable grinding fests without using mana elixirs at all, nor ever using coalesced mana).

I cannot comment on how holy actually plays in non-imperil, because I have neither experience nor data. But likely it is still slightly faster than optimal imperil setups, while also requiring less input to actually play.

This post has been edited by lestion: Oct 22 2019, 13:06

Thanks for that detailed reply. Despite never seeing maging, I think am getting a decent idea of what it might be like. Everything you say makes sense, and what scares me is that by now I think I can almost understand everything you say haha.

Maging is still very far off for me but I'm starting to think about it and keep an eye on interesting items that might appear. Sometimes the mechanics of maging and melee can be slightly related; for example lately people have debated the merits of Imperil in melee and this brings up similar ideas in maging. I'm not decided on what element I would use, but I've also considered nearly all the ideas you brought up. Maybe I would use whatever I found on the ground from monsters.

Or if monsters gave me nothing but 500m credits fell out of the sky into my pocket that would be great, too. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Thanks for that detailed reply. Despite never seeing maging, I think am getting a decent idea of what it might be like. Everything you say makes sense, and what scares me is that by now I think I can almost understand everything you say haha.

Maging is still very far off for me but I'm starting to think about it and keep an eye on interesting items that might appear. Sometimes the mechanics of maging and melee can be slightly related; for example lately people have debated the merits of Imperil in melee and this brings up similar ideas in maging. I'm not decided on what element I would use, but I've also considered nearly all the ideas you brought up. Maybe I would use whatever I found on the ground from monsters.

Or if monsters gave me nothing but 500m credits fell out of the sky into my pocket that would be great, too. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

I agree with Lestion - however don't underestimate the sheer power of dark. It does a lot of damage. That means that in arena's they all die in the same time it would take me to imperil the lot. So non-imperil is a lot faster in arena's. And, bear in mind that we do play imperil against SG's. All mages. There is no non-imperil play against SG.

So basically, with my 0.958 prof factor 4+1 set, I can breeze through 500 rounds of PFFEST, and then it gets dangerous. But proficiency is still not at max, and it will improve further. We'll see how 'bad' non-imperil dark is when I'm at 600 base prof, and at DD VII.

By the way - elemental spell damage is not the same as dark. T1 and T2 are a tiny bit less powerful.
https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spell_Damage

Tiny bits are important in HV

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Oct 22 2019, 14:57

By the way - elemental spell damage is not the same as dark. T1 and T2 are a tiny bit less powerful.
https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spell_Damage

Tiny bits are important in HV

Dark Willow of Destruction is also significantly more powerful than any *element* Redwood of Destruction.
0 MDB difference
+ 4.82 EDB - 2.14 prof (they even each other out)
+0.9 WIS - 1.50 INT (minor difference, well below 0.5% damage in favor of Redwood)
+13.59 CR (at least 3% damage in PFUDOR)

(Katalox is crap, lower EDB and no CR, prof alone can't compensate that)

Dark also has DoT in the form of Ripened Soul, which adds a low but still visible amount of damage.

Dark Willow of Destruction is also significantly more powerful than any *element* Redwood of Destruction.
0 MDB difference
+ 4.82 EDB - 2.14 prof (they even each other out)
+0.9 WIS - 1.50 INT (minor difference, well below 0.5% damage in favor of Redwood)
+13.59 CR (at least 3% damage in PFUDOR)

(Katalox is crap, lower EDB and no CR, prof alone can't compensate that)

Dark also has DoT in the form of Ripened Soul, which adds a low but still visible amount of damage.

Redwood and Katalox are essentially analogous: the EDB rolls are the same, the MDB rolls are the same, and the lack of CR is obviously the same. Even disregarding the prof difference (though it does make a difference), Redwood/Katalox should beat out Willow for non-imperil, and I will show you the numbers for this in a subsequent post. (Note: actually it's not! See the tables for proof.)

The DoT is basically negligible in all my time playing dark (it added up to something like 0.06% damage) but that is for imperil play. For non-imperil play, it may be slightly more significant (though whether this actually adds up to a turn saved in real play, I strongly doubt).

If any of my numbers are wrong regarding the differences between Katalox and Redwood, please do tell me. I do not have conclusive game evidence of this - only wiki formulas and peerless redwoods to compare against.

This post has been edited by lestion: Nov 1 2019, 00:36

Edit! This post has been superceded by my newer post about staff comparisons for non-imperil here.

This post has been edited by lestion: Nov 13 2019, 03:34

Dark DOT through ripened soul: 3.7% of all damage inflicted. That is better than upgrading DD2 to DD3!

I worries me that your conclusion seems to be that katalox would be better for non-imperil dark play. That has been tested many times in the past, and that never seemed to be the case?

Dark DOT through ripened soul: 3.7% of all damage inflicted. That is better than upgrading DD2 to DD3!

I worries me that your conclusion seems to be that katalox would be better for non-imperil dark play. That has been tested many times in the past, and that never seemed to be the case?

I'm willing to own up to a mistake and accept that non-imperil dark may benefit significantly from the DoT after all. (It is quite hard to simulate, though...)

Also: my previous post now reflects more correct results, which are in favour of Willow definitively.

This post has been edited by lestion: Oct 23 2019, 01:07

Higher cast speed build (29% vs 19.3%), less DOT (3.4%)

Not much data, but still plausible that it works similar to bleeding wound.

-snip-

I added more detailed data about the strike damage.

For non-imperil play, it may be slightly more significant (though whether this actually adds up to a turn saved in real play, I strongly doubt).

From what I remember slotting the ability was saving me ~100-150 turn out of 4000-5000.
Not insignificant in any way.
Obviously if you're using imperil most monsters die after the T3 so the DoT doesn't really add much.

If any of my numbers are wrong regarding the differences between Katalox and Redwood, please do tell me. I do not have conclusive game evidence of this - only wiki formulas and peerless redwoods to compare against.

You're way off with the resist you calculated on the monsters.
The monster resist is calculated as such:

Thats cus resist is multiplied. In 3 parts.

1. One of 3 which is lower:
a. 10
b. WIS/ 100
c. (WIS - Level) / 75
2. monster ability * 0.5%
3. Difficulty (another 10%).

So full formula is:
1 - (1 - min(10 , (WIS/ 100) , (WIS - Level) / 75) / 100) * (1 - ability * 0.5%)*(1-0,1 in case of pf)
And thats why max is 1 - (0,9)*(0,9)*(0,9) which is 27,1% instead of 30%.

So tough monster @ PFUDOR will pretty much always have >20 resist.
More than 2 years ago I calculated the resist at 22.7%, now it's probably higher (24 or 25%) but I don't really want to do the test again, the methodology is this post.
With the unrealistic 12% your cutting the CR efficiency in half.

I also don't think you can calculate the Cr from sssss2's result since he could have still attacked even if a few monsters have resisted the imperil, you really need to get the resist data yourself to get any meaningful result.

You're also comparing apple to oranges if you're extending redwood vs willow for elec to katalox vs willow for dark.
Willow has higher dark EDB than elec EDB (8.1 base value difference).

This post has been edited by Sapo84: Oct 22 2019, 22:38

From what I remember slotting the ability was saving me ~100-150 turn out of 4000-5000.
Not insignificant in any way.
Obviously if you're using imperil most monsters die after the T3 so the DoT doesn't really add much.
You're way off with the resist you calculated on the monsters.
The monster resist is calculated as such:
So tough monster @ PFUDOR will pretty much always have >20 resist.
More than 2 years ago I calculated the resist at 22.7%, now it's probably higher (24 or 25%) but I don't really want to do the test again, the methodology is this post.
With the unrealistic 12% your cutting the CR efficiency in half.

I also don't think you can calculate the Cr from sssss2's result since he could have still attacked even if a few monsters have resisted the imperil, you really need to get the resist data yourself to get any meaningful result.

You're also comparing apple to oranges if you're extending redwood vs willow for elec to katalox vs willow for dark.
Willow has higher dark EDB than elec EDB (8.1 base value difference).

Oops... good call on both counts. I forgot to add the PF resist bonus (and I also didn't notice the willow dark EDB being higher). I'll now fix those things and update my findings accordingly... apologies for some very misleading results, in that case!

That said - I'm guessing sssss2's method involved simply imperiling until all monsters were affected, partly because the numbers I extrapolated from it agreed with my own personal data, too.