[X] My Assistant

This thread is for all research, experiments, and hypotheses testing on how HV really works.

if you want specific posts moved to this thread, please provide the link to that post and I will do my magic.

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Oct 3 2019, 20:04

Please find below a copy of sssss2's research on 1h, from a couple of years ago

Several months ago, I did some researches about 1H.
I don't play 1H anymore, so now reveal them.


1. Calculating strike damage

[Spec]
* Level 468

* Weapon: Legendary Arctic Rapier of Slaughter (Butcher Lv.5 Fatality Lv.4)

* Physical Attack
10842 attack base damage
212.2% hit chance
48.2% crit chance * Heartseeker 10% = 53.38%
+68% crit damage + Heartseeker 15% = +83%
2.4% attack speed bonus

* Defense
82.5% physical mitigation
76.5% magical mitigation
4.7% evade chance
66.7% block chance
65.4% parry chance
23.7% resist chance

CODE

Level 468
grindfest @ PFUDOR
(Arctic Rapier + Infusion of Darkness + Flame Spike Shield)

===============================================================================================
           | overall                       | hit             | crit            | crit  | crit
           |     _damage | _count |   _avg | _count |   _avg | _count |   _avg | _rate |  _mod
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You        | 491,269,981 | 21,595 | 22,749 | 10,208 | 15,828 | 11,387 | 28,954 | 0.527 | 1.829
Cold Strike|  75,304,621 | 18,846 |  3,996 |  9,274 |  4,091 |  9,572 |  3,903 | 0.508 | 0.954
Dark Strike|  69,281,453 | 18,344 |  3,777 |  9,020 |  3,857 |  9,324 |  3,699 | 0.508 | 0.959
Void Strike| 127,588,552 | 17,864 |  7,142 |  8,808 |  7,289 |  9,056 |  6,999 | 0.507 | 0.960
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
counter    | 304,948,491 |                 | 26,516 | 11,501 |

- An average damage of normal hits is 15,828
- A sum of 3 strikes is 15,237 : it is slightly lower than normal hits' avg, but I'll consider they are almost same.
- Searing Skin, which is caused by Flame Spike Shield, reduces a monster's cold resistance by 25%.
- High pl monsters have high mitigations against elemental strikes
- A counter-attack's damage is 75% of normal attack ( http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Fighting_Styles#One-Handed )



2. Butcher vs Fatality

* In my case, Butcher Lv.5 increases the attack damage by 2.312%.
My current equip set for 1H is consist of 2x Power Protection and 3x Power Slaughter.
It means that Butcher's efficiency will be reduced if I wear 5x Power Slaughter.


[Butcher Lv.0 + Fatality Lv.0] (estimated)
$ad 10597
crit_chance 53.38% : 48.2% * Heartseeker 10%
crit_bonus +75% : +60% + Heartseeker 15%

skill
= $ad * (1 + 0.5338 * 0.75)
= $ad * 1.4

normal attack + strikes damage
= $ad * (1 + 0.5338 * 0.75) + $ad
= $ad * 2.4

counter attack
= $ad * 0.75


[Butcher Lv.5]
10842 : $ad * 1.02312
crit_chance 53.38%
crit_bonus +75%

skill
= $ad * 1.4 * 1.02312
= $ad * 1.432368

normal attack + strikes damage
= $ad * 2.4 * 1.02312
= $ad * 2.455488

counter attack
= $ad * 0.75 * 1.02312
= $ad * 0.76734


[Fatality Lv.5]
10597 : $ad
crit_chance 53.38%
crit_bonus +85% : Fatality +10%

skill
= $ad * (1 + 0.5338 * 0.85)
= $ad * 1.45373

normal attack + strikes damage
= $ad * (1 + 0.5338 * 0.85) + $ad
= $ad * 2.45373

counter attack
= $ad * 0.75

CODE

Summary

==========================================================
              | Normal Attack | Counter Attack | Skill    
----------------------------------------------------------
None          | 2.4           | 0.75           | 1.4      
Butcher Lv.5  | 2.455488      | 0.76734        | 1.432368
Fatality Lv.5 | 2.45373       | 0.75           | 1.45373  

3. Overpower

CODE

Level 456
Butcher Lv.3 Fatality Lv.2 (Potency Tier 5)

======================================================================
        | hit   | crit  | parried | sum    | parried_rate | hit_rate  
----------------------------------------------------------------------
normal  | 3,382 | 3,641 |     716 |  7,739 |      9.2518% |  90.7486%
stunned | 6,098 | 6,327 |       0 | 12,425 |      0%      | 100.0%    
----------------------------------------------------------------------
overall | 9,480 | 9,968 |     716 | 20,164 |      3.5509% |  96.4491%

CODE

Level 456
Overpower Lv.5 (Potency Tier 5)

=======================================================================
        | hit   | crit   | parried | sum    | parried_rate | hit_rate  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
normal  | 3,329 |  3,683 |     452 |  7,464 |      6.0557% |  93.9443%
stunned | 5,946 |  6,330 |       0 | 12,276 |      0%      | 100.0%    
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
overall | 9,275 | 10,013 |     452 | 19,740 |      2.2898% |  97.7102%

- Overpower applies only to normal attacks.
- In this case, it increases the real hit rate by 1.3075%. (97.7102 / 96.4491 = 1.013075)
- A counter-attack stuns monsters, which can't parry. For this reason, Overpower is less efficient than Butcher and Fatality. (to one-handed style)



4. Spike Shield

- Cold/Elec/Wind Strike with proper Spike Shields are better than Holy/Dark Strike. (except for SG arena)
- This is the reason why I had not changed my Arctic Rapier for Hallowed/Demonic one.

CODE

Level 424

========================================
Flame Spike | overall | hit    | crit  
----------------------------------------
You         | 15,740  | 11,533 | 20,422
Cold Strike |  2,990  |  3,052 |  2,916
Dark Strike |  2,927  |  2,984 |  2,859
Void Strike |  5,280  |  5,368 |  5,174

========================================
Flame Spike | overall | hit    | crit  
----------------------------------------
You         | 15,707  | 11,522 | 20,381
Cold Strike |  2,998  |  3,053 |  2,934
Holy Strike |  2,908  |  2,961 |  2,844
Void Strike |  5,258  |  5,350 |  5,147

========================================
Flame Spike | overall | hit    | crit  
----------------------------------------
You         | 15,762  | 11,525 | 20,571
Cold Strike |  2,979  |  3,031 |  2,915
Wind Strike |  2,698  |  2,722 |  2,669
Void Strike |  5,289  |  5,360 |  5,202

========================================
Flame Spike | overall | hit    | crit  
----------------------------------------
You         | 15,786  | 11,510 | 20,544
Cold Strike |  3,020  |  3,062 |  2,970
Elec Strike |  2,710  |  2,748 |  2,664
Void Strike |  5,286  |  5,367 |  5,189

========================================
Flame Spike | overall | hit    | crit  
----------------------------------------
You         | 15,763  | 11,532 | 20,539
Cold Strike |  3,004  |  3,049 |  2,948
Fire Strike |  2,438  |  2,471 |  2,399
Void Strike |  5,293  |  5,371 |  5,198

========================================
Shock Spike | overall | hit    | crit  
----------------------------------------
You         | 15,741  | 11,583 | 20,480
Cold Strike |  2,701  |  2,752 |  2,638
Fire Strike |  2,823  |  2,868 |  2,767
Void Strike |  5,301  |  5,386 |  5,197

CODE

Summary

======================================
            | overall |
--------------------------------------
You         | 100.0%  |
Void Strike |  33.55% |
Cold Strike |  19.03% | * Flame Spike
Dark Strike |  18.60% |
Holy Strike |  18.51% |
Fire Strike |  17.93% | * Shock Spike
Elec Strike |  17.17% |
Cold Strike |  17.16% |
Wind Strike |  17.12% |
Fire Strike |  15.47% |

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Oct 3 2019, 19:33

Please find below the experiments on 1h done by Basara Nekki

I did a simple test to compare performance between a Rapier and a Shortsword.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/mFSY0V3.jpg)

- Both have the same IW and the same amount of upgrades.
- I used Imperil in every round.
- Hallowed Rapier + Infusion of Lightning
- Shocking Shortsword + Infusion of Divinity
- Test done on Friday (day of all elements).

I measured the total time it takes to make all Arenas, plus 6 RE's and the Ring of Blood Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Results:
- With Rapier: 3h 04min
- With Shortsword: 3h 11min

As it can be noticed, even with a difference of more than 500 ADB, the Penetrated Armor makes a good difference in the final result. But the difference is not as great as I thought. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

The only big advantage of a shortsword is that you can buy a Peerless for a price much lower than a "top" rapier, and the performance is not that bad. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Someday I'll do the same test with a Peerless Axe of Slaughter (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (if I have one, of course (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) ).

It's good enough that rapier with imperil is still a tiny bit faster than shortsword with imperil. Rapier without imperil is probably more notably better than shortsword without imperil.

Shortsword with imperil compared to rapier without imperil might be an interesting test.

Given the requests I took the test. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Result:
- Rapier without Imperil: 3h 22min

Compared with the previous result, it is 18 minutes more! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Ah, and regardless of this matter of losing t/s or having to pay more attention in the game, Imperil's constant use always has a gain ... the deprecating proficiency gain. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Oct 3 2019, 19:38

Please find below some of the work done by decondelite on imperil 1h style / shortsword imperil

Who, apart from decon, thinks shortswords are great and why (i'm not getting "because they fit" answer)? I considered them to be the worst 1h weapon, behind axe and waki (but at least waki has its uses thanks to high parry also niten). If you need more survivability and can't find good rapier why not just opt for a lower quality one? If you need more damage and can't find good rapier why not just go for club or, again, for a lower quality rapier?

Shortswords have the same parry than rapiers and a higher ADB. If anything, enough reasons to make them just as viable as rapiers at lower levels, without even using Imperil since players won't even meet the tankiest monsters.

At higher levels (Lvl 310 and above to have 3 targets Imperil), it's a bit more complicated. Shortswords fit if you do can sustain your mana pool to cast Imperil 3 times a round. If you can't, it mostly means that you're having a bit too rough of a time due to excessive healing. For my case using a simple mana draught every once in a while is enough. Monsters will remain at worst at 15-20% PMit, which is fairly acceptable, especially with the higher ADB. At best they will be left at 0%PMit and Bleeding Wound will further increase your damage output.

Another major reason why Imperil shortsword is very, very good, is that while the monsters are imperiled, you deal devastating damage with your counterattacks. Players who just use a rapier mindlessly forget that their precious Penetrated Armor lasts only 7 turns, which makes it practially impossible to have more than 2-3 monsters afflicted by it at once while distributing the damage over the monsters. And out of the lot, most will have only 1-2 stacks of PA on them, mind you. While with iperil shortsword, you really don't care the duration: 30 turns is way enough, and you can even afford staying on the same non-imperiled monster (which is still very common) to slash it do death with stacks of BW, as the rest of the party will remain inflicted with Imperil and crash themselves with their reduced PMit. That way you can even afford diminishing the amount of monsters to help you survive if you're having a hard time.

The last reason why it's excellent: SG arenas. At best, with no-imperil rapier, you can reduce the SG's PMit to 0% and that's about it. if you do imperil the SG while playing rapier, well it doesn' change anything for the PMit (still 0%), it will only reduce her elemental mitigations aswell (down to 35% instead of 75%), which will only result in more elemental strike damage. But with Imperil shortsword, you reduce her PMit to ~15% at level 500 (IIRC the results of my work to determine their exact stats, I don't have time to check right now), which is fairly acceptable, but you also inflict her with 5 stacks of BW that will have a noticeable effect, which in the end compensates the 15%PMit by far and also provides a bonus.

All the while having higher ADB than a rapier, mind you.

It's been months I wanted to make a video of that playstyle, but I have never had the time to do it yet. It'd be a great way to show what it really gives. If I got time to do it this weekend, I'll do it. Because numbers talk by themselves: as of today, I can still clear PFUDOR DwD within 25 minutes and 4400-4500 turns, while having only 7800 attack base damage and barely any forging.

That style does have drawbacks though:

• You need to have a very good Depr proficiency to land Imperil fairly better, but if you got it behind you it's still decent and that playstyle will skyrocket it just like playing mage (I'm at 410 right now)
• You need to OMG press 3 keys in the beginning of every round to cast Imperil 2, Imperil 5, Imperil 8, it's unacceptable. /sarcasm

In the case of axes, one could expect that they are better than shortswords when it comes to play that way, but no, they aren't. The issue with axes is that while they do have way higher ADB than a shortsword, they have absolutely no parry to perform counterattacks. Axes are only ever acceptable as a main hand for DW, and that's about it.

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Oct 3 2019, 20:00

CODE

===============================================================================================
           |      damage |  count |    avg |   hits |    avg |  crits |    avg |  rate |  mult
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You        | 491,269,981 | 21,595 | 22,749 | 10,208 | 15,828 | 11,387 | 28,954 | 0.527 | 1.829
Cold Strike|  75,304,621 | 18,846 |  3,996 |  9,274 |  4,091 |  9,572 |  3,903 | 0.508 | 0.954
Dark Strike|  69,281,453 | 18,344 |  3,777 |  9,020 |  3,857 |  9,324 |  3,699 | 0.508 | 0.959
Void Strike| 127,588,552 | 17,864 |  7,142 |  8,808 |  7,289 |  9,056 |  6,999 | 0.507 | 0.960
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
counter    | 304,948,491 |                 | 26,516 | 11,501 |

I had some new thoughts on the data from the Research for 1H thread. Why do crits occur slightly less often (0.508 versus 0.527) with the elemental strikes than the main attack? This explanation is easy, it's because when the main hit kills the elemental strikes don't occur, and the main hit is more likely to kill when it is a crit.

Let's probe deeper. Why does Void Strike do notably less than half (7289/15828 = 46.05%) of the main hit? That's an 8.5% loss (50/46.05 = 1.08575) in expected damage! Some testing I just did with other methods confirm it should be exactly half damage; applicable roundings I encountered were four orders of magnitude lower.

I believe the reason is due to Penetrated Armor. Not counting crits, you can see that the main hit occurred 10208 times while Void Strike only had a chance to be performed 8808 times. That's quite a loss. And losing those 1400 hits means that Void Strike didn't get as many chances to hit while PA was active, thus losing damage potential when this method of data gathering is used.

We should properly think of Void Strike as doing 50% damage, therefore the elemental comparison subsequently performed was biased toward Cold! We can try to roughly fix that by extrapolating the amount of bias that Void Strike received. Cold Strike hit 9274 - 9020 = 254 more times than Dark Strike, which might suggest that Dark Strike lost 254/1400 * 8.575% = 1.556% due to bias.

CODE

Cold Strike |  18.74% | * Flame Spike
Dark Strike |  18.60% |
Holy Strike |  18.51% |
Fire Strike |  17.93% | * Shock Spike
Elec Strike |  17.17% |
Wind Strike |  17.12% |
Cold Strike |  16.90% |
Fire Strike |  15.47% |

This is the adjusted table in Research for 1H, with my 1.556% crude multiplier penalizing both entries for Cold Strike. We can't be sure Cold Strike is best anymore. The random statistical uncertainty in each of these values is 0.23% since Cold Strike measured in the 18.90% to 19.13% range. It could be insightful to repeat this test with a non-Arctic rapier.

I have no explanation for why elemental strikes only did 96% of normal damage when they crit in this data, that's why I ignored them. I just confirmed with other methods that they should be exactly the same at present. In older versions of the game the elemental strikes used to say they crit (whenever the main attack did) however the damage was normal. It could have been 96% back then, I don't know.

Please find below mage research by SapoLONG MAGE DISCUSSION

But it's a problem to estimate the new imperil cast turns. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

If I had to guess I would say -100 turns or something like that (since the resist would be reduced by less than 3% it's around that value).
Probably not enough to justify the huge damage loss, which is worth more than that.


Anyway, I created a persona with huge amount of divine prof, little damage and no CR on staff.
Tested on IWBTH and PFUDOR.
The result are:
IWBTH

CODE

1680 no resist
385 single resist
34 double resist

6297 total rolls
453 resisted
7,19 % avg resist
14.38% monster average resist (CR 50%)

PFUDOR

CODE

1645 no resist
618 single resist
76 double resist
4 triple resist

7029 total rolls
782 resisted
11.1% avg resist
22.2% monster average resist (CR 50%)

First consideration:
14.38% + 10% != 22.2%
Even if we take in account variation it seems too much.

Possible solution: 14.18% + (1-0.1418) * 10 = 22.72%
Much better.

Second consideration: results seems higher than morineko's.
Let's check another result.

CODE

Total rolls: 6141
Resisted rolls: 313
avg resist: 5.1% (75.59%CR)
monster average resist: 21%

If I remember correctly long arenas/grindfest have lower average PL, so this could explain the different results.

Since I only have pen3 on my staff I also tried to calculate how much would the damage change between pen5 and pen3 @PFUDOR.
I assumed monster average resist as 19.8% (from my tests it's probably more but when I did the math I only had morineko's imperil results)

CODE

75.58% CR
4.83516% avg resist (19.8 * 1-CR)

chance of 1 resist
resist * (1- resist) * (1-resist) * 3
4.3788885659194332096 * 3 =
13.137%
chance of 2 resist
(1-resist) * resist * resist X 3
0.675%
chance of 3 resist
* resist * resist * resist
0.011%

total damage =
(100*86.178 + 50* 13.137 + 25*0.675 + 10*0.011) / 100
92.916% of damage

83,58% CR
3.25116% avg resist

chance of 1 resist
3.0431956626501160896 * 3 =
9.13%
chance of 2 resist
0.307%
chance of 3 resist
0.003%

total damage =
(100*90.56 + 50*9.13 + 25*0.307 + 10*0.003) / 100
95.202% of damage

Damage difference = (95.202 - 92.916)% = 2.286% damage

Conclusion: I fucked up the IW.

This post has been edited by DJNoni: Oct 14 2019, 18:21

Let's consider what typical monster HP ranges are between species. Arthropod, Giant, Dragon, and Undead have around 100 base Endurance. At PL 2250 this increases to 100 + 10 * 25 = 350 Endurance. At level 500 this scales to 0.01 * base_stat * monster_level + (monster_level ^ 1.076675) * 0.3325 = 5 * 350 + 267 = 2017 Endurance.

At level 500 such monsters have (100 + monster_level * 10 + End * 5) * 8 = (5100 + 10085) * 8 ~ 15185 HP. I dropped the multiplier of 8 because I don't care about the difficulty/level part of the formula here, just the relative difference between monster species.

Avion, Celestial, Daimon, Elemental, Sprite, and Human have 50 base Endurance or less. At PL 2250 this increases to 50 + 6*25 = 200 Endurance. At level 500 this scales to 5 * 200 + 267 = 1267 Endurance and 5100 + 6335 = 11435 HP. While monster HP does vary significantly at high levels, it is nowhere near as much as low levels.

Next let's consider approximate PMit between species. It's based on End + Agi/2 so in the top class we have Arthropod, Giant, and Undead. Arthropod has 70 base Agility, or 70 + 7 * 25 = 245 Agility at PL 2250 then 5 * 245 + 267 = 1492 Agility at level 500. PMit = 1 - (900 / (900 + End + Agi/2) = 1 - 900 / (900 + 2017 + 1492/2) = 75.4%

Undead has only 40 base Agility but catches up at PL 2250 with 40 + 6 * 25 = 190 Agility which becomes 1217 Agility at level 500 and finally PMit = 74.5%

Giant has only 30 base Agility but catches up at PL 2250 with 30 + 6 * 25 = 180 Agility which scales to 1167 Agility. Giant has 120 base Endurance though that's only 120 + 10 * 25 = 370 Endurance at PL 2250 and finally 2117 Endurance and PMit = 75.0%

In the middle class we have Avion, Celestial, Mechanoid, Reptilian, Sprite, and Human with base End + Agi/2 ≈ 100. Recycling previous calculations Celestial has 1267 Endurance and 2017 Agility which translates to PMit = 71.7%. Avion has 1217 Endurance and 2217 Agility which translates to PMit = 72.1%. Mechanoid has 1492 Endurance and 1217 Agility which translates to PMit = 70%. Sprite has 1117 Endurance and 2117 Agility which translates to PMit = 70.7%. Human has 1267 Endurance and 1667 Agility which translates to PMit = 70%. Reptilian has 1667 Endurance and 1317 Agility which translates to PMit = 72.1%.

Beast has 1492 Endurance and 1842 Agility which translates to PMit = 72.8%. Dragon has 1842 Endurance and 1167 Agility which translates to PMit = 72.9%.

The weakest ones, Daimon has 1217 Endurance and 1667 Agility which translates to PMit = 69.5%. Elemental has 1217 Endurance and 1317 Agility which translates to PMit = 67.6%.

The general variation is 75% ~ 70% PMit which means physical attacks naturally do 25% ~ 30% damage before inflicting ailments. The HP variation among species is a bit more significant. I'll use these calculations for future reference on other subjects.

sssss2 is going to complete his Peerless of Slaughter 1H set this week. Would he perhaps be interested in updating his Research for 1H tests in the current version of the game in celebration?

The day of week now has a moderate effect on elemental damage, where attacks and magic of a given element will do increased damage on specific days. (This is implemented as a reduction in effective elemental resistance for both players and monsters on the day in question.)

Monster health scaling was changed. Above level 100 it will shift more from difficulty to monster level, scaling up from 1x at level 100 to 4x at level 500. Max difficulty modifier was reduced from 8x to a 2x. Base health from endurance was reduced from 6 per point to 5 per point.

HP between different monster species varies less than when Research for 1H was performed. This will alter the elemental comparison table slightly. Monster PL are higher these days; this may only shift the comparisons a little because elemental mitigations increase in a varied way such as to keep the relationships partially constant. I expect Fire/Cold/Elec/Wind to worsen compared to Holy/Dark but improve when combined with Spike Shields.

New tests must be mindful of the day of the week. People are commonly testing on void day but I think elemental comparison tests should be done on nothing/mismatched days.

But vs Fat is unaffected by the game version, aside from sssss2 changing his stats. Others pointed out before that Overpower will be improved if more monsters have chaos upgrades.

sssss2 is going to complete his Peerless of Slaughter 1H set this week. Would he perhaps be interested in updating his Research for 1H tests in the current version of the game in celebration?

consider that's an extreme 1H set. one may want to know the performances of an average 1H set, which is what commoners may put their hands on. and at that point, a neutral shield.

and also, saying, a shade set, while we're at it...

is what commoners may put their hands on

Damn, sssss2 is some kind of royalty? Never spoke to him, but will make sure to bow my head if I ever do.


More seriously though, I don't think knowing the min or max is a bad thing, if it was in the ask the experts thread I'd agree that what your typical player would be able to equip themselves would be better, but I'd have thought in a research thread then it isn't completely useless information.

This post has been edited by Ubershank: Oct 5 2019, 09:26

Damn, sssss2 is some kind of royalty? Never spoke to him, but will make sure to bow my head if I ever do.
More seriously though, I don't think knowing the min or max is a bad thing, if it was in the ask the experts thread I'd agree that what your typical player would be able to equip themselves would be better, but I'd have thought in a research thread then it isn't completely useless information.

yeah for proper research, extremes and corner points can be very valuable

More seriously though, I don't think knowing the min or max is a bad thing, if it was in the ask the experts thread I'd agree that what your typical player would be able to equip themselves would be better, but I'd have thought in a research thread then it isn't completely useless information.

hey, i just said one may want to know also what's the average, and surely - how much it differs from the uber-hyper-duper max, in terms of turns, time and cost .-.

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Oct 5 2019, 11:58

hey, i just said one may want to know also what's the average, and surely - how much it differs from the uber-hyper-duper max, in terms of turns, time and cost .-.

Point taken.
I wasn't saying that data from average equipment isn't also useful, I was just pointing out that it's not worth discounting it because it's max roll equipment, since it can still be used, especially for working out more accurate numbers without worrying about random equipment rolls affecting them. The less random elements the better, surely? I am saying this as someone who has no business in this thread as I ain't good at statistics, or numbers in general though lol, just want to point that out so I don't get quoted as if I know what I'm talking about. I'm mostly here just because it's interesting to read, even if I don't understand 100% of it.

We should be reminded that monster PMit continues to increase with player level. At level 300 an Arthropod would have 3 * 350 + 154 = 1204 Endurance and 3 * 245 + 154 = 889 Agility, resulting in PMit = 1 - 900 / (900 + 1204 + 889/2) = 64.7% while a Giant has 1264 Endurance, 694 Agility, and PMit = 64.2% and a Human has 754 Endurance, 994 Agility, and PMit = 58.2%

At my current level 378, SchoolGirls with PA3 suffer about 2.1 times normal damage, this corresponds to a PMit ≈ 60% which is slightly below the weakest regular monster Elemental which at my level has PMit ≈ 61%

Lately we debated whether Rapier or Shortsword is better with 1H Imperil style. I don't know which is better but at high levels approaching 500 the Rapier with Imperil will benefit more as monster PMit increases. At level 300 a Shortsword will have an easier time grinding down the occasional monster that didn't get Imperiled. I can't say whether non-Imp Rapier or Imp Shortsword improves more near level 500.

Shortswords have the same parry than rapiers and a higher ADB. If anything, enough reasons to make them just as viable as rapiers at lower levels, without even using Imperil since players won't even meet the tankiest monsters.

At higher levels (Lvl 310 and above to have 3 targets Imperil), it's a bit more complicated. Shortswords fit if you do can sustain your mana pool to cast Imperil 3 times a round. Monsters will remain at worst at 15-20% 34~38% PMit (for Imperiled level 500 monsters), which is fairly acceptable, especially with the higher ADB. At best they will be left at 0% 26~30% PMit (for Imperiled level 300 monsters) and Bleeding Wound will further increase your damage output.

Another major reason why Imperil shortsword is very, very good, is that while the monsters are imperiled, you deal devastating damage with your counterattacks. Players who just use a rapier mindlessly forget that their precious Penetrated Armor lasts only 7 turns, which makes it practically impossible to have more than 2-3 monsters afflicted by it at once while distributing the damage over the monsters. And out of the lot, most will have only 1-2 stacks of PA on them, mind you. While with imperil shortsword, you really don't care the duration: 30 turns is way enough, and you can even afford staying on the same non-imperiled monster (which is still very common) to slash it do death with stacks of BW, as the rest of the party will remain inflicted with Imperil and crash themselves with their reduced PMit. That way you can even afford diminishing the amount of monsters to help you survive if you're having a hard time.

The last reason why it's excellent: SG arenas. At best, with no-imperil rapier, you can reduce the SG's PMit to 0% 60% * (1 - 75%) = 15% and that's about it. if you do imperil the SG while playing rapier, well it doesn't change anything for the PMit (still 0% 7.5% from multiplicative stacking), it will only reduce her elemental mitigations as well (down to 35% instead of 75%), which will only result in more elemental strike damage (no change if dark/holy rapier). But with Imperil shortsword, you reduce her PMit to ~15% 30% at level 500 380, which is fairly acceptable, but you also inflict her with 5 stacks of BW that will have a noticeable effect, which in the end compensates the PMit by far and also provides a bonus.

We've studied Imperil mechanics more carefully since then so I'm updating the numbers. It doesn't invalidate any of the points made.

The idea to focus on the non-Imperiled monster with Shortsword should work just as well with Imperil 1H Rapier, if not better. Near level 500 with Shortsword it might be a better idea to just try to Imperil the monster again, considering your improved mana supply and higher monster PMit.

I'm not sure exactly how decondelite chooses targets these days, but I know he used to use Overpower 5 and that helps in being able to hit the non-Imperiled monster right away. Now I think this method could be improved upon. Because Overwhelming Strikes may be lost while casting Imperil x3 it might be better to spread or hit random stunned monsters for the first few turns. After Overwhelming Strikes is gotten back, the non-Imperiled monster has probably stunned itself by then. Switch to beating it down, then go back to the spread. If you use that method I don't think you need any Overpower, so you can instead get But5+Fat4 and do more damage.

why not picking the same build, similar weapons with similar IW and going against, saying, FSM and/or other wild beasts like IPU? doing it 3-4 times and taking an average should give us a clear hint of the efficiency of each style against a very tanky mob

I think it's more useful to test in regular arenas. Basara has provided the best comparisons to date. There aren't many players with excellent deprecating proficiency and similar weapons for both styles. Even with those, the results can change significantly depending on your player level, your choice of armors, and your targeting styles.

By the time someone has acquired the resources to test properly they will likely be level 430+ so we might never see a solid comparison in the level 300~400 range which could very well end up with Shortsword winning. I'd prefer to see comparisons using full Slaughter armor (high quality not necessary). Rapier would probably win with Balance armor (maybe even without Imperil) and Shortsword would probably win with a Protection/Warding set.

If we want to see a nice low level comparison we may need to groom someone on the techniques involved and help gather some of the necessary equipment. Right now I'm more interested in revisiting other previous topics: new (?) targeting styles and Haste, which I hope to elaborate on soon.

Because Overwhelming Strikes may be lost while casting Imperil x3 it might be better to spread or hit random stunned monsters for the first few turns. After Overwhelming Strikes is gotten back, the non-Imperiled monster has probably stunned itself by then. Switch to beating it down, then go back to the spread. If you use that method I don't think you need any Overpower, so you can instead get But5+Fat4 and do more damage.

That won't work. The only thing it'd result in is a loss of time. You're overestimating the probability of a monster being stunned or parrying an attack.
And I don't exactly use Overpower 5 to make sure I hit my targets, but because the gain of Fatality is barely any more useful and I want to be able to use my weapon for DW if I feel like to. Otherwise I'd be using B5F4 like everyone else.

As a very low level 1H player I used to target monsters individually but have been using the spread for a long time now so it's time for me to take another look at various targeting styles. I'll start by rehashing old knowledge then try to add new considerations. There are different types of spread targeting patterns and players may not be fully conscious of which ones they use.

Kill Monsters One at a Time: Best for low level players because it immediately reduces opponent numbers and lowers the damage you take. Less counter attacks are performed, which don't benefit from Penetrated Armor, becoming nearly useless if not using Imperil style. Very high level players should consider this method again because monsters have more PMit and spread styles allow PA to wear off.

Kill Stunned Monsters: Choose which monsters to kill by selecting the stunned ones. Haste and Swift Strike improve this by allowing more hits on stunned monsters, while Overpower becomes useless. Imperil also helps by allowing the first monster to get stunned. If you react well this benefit is free and can't be achieved with spread styles.

Leave Hurt Monsters to Die: Focus on stunned monsters individually but stop short of killing them, leaving them to die from future PA enhanced counters. With skilled reactions and estimation ability this can be the best method. Counter performance may compare to spread styles. Turns/second will likely drop a little.

Spread - Windshield Wiper: Hit monsters once each going up and down the screen. A variant of this deliberately hits monsters at the edges twice. Maximizes the number of counters, which can benefit from PA, but it may wear off. Mobs of 5+ make corner monsters lose PA. Mobs of 8+ cause the middle monster to always lose PA, and those in other positions may only build to PA2 at most.

Spread - Cycle Pattern: Hit monsters once each always moving in one direction. Distributes hits more uniformly than the wiper style. Mobs of 7 or less allow PA to possibly accumulate on everyone. Mobs of 8+ create a disaster. Could waste a tiny bit of time after each cycle if you don't move the mouse cursor fast enough.

Spread - Wiper Speed x2: Wipe at double speed, alternately skipping monsters. The ideal targeting pattern hits monsters 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 8, 6, 4, 2. This effectively replicates the Cycle Pattern without wasting any mouse cursor time. Difficult to perform and messing up could either lead to a disaster, or unintentionally become another targeting style.

Spread - Chaotic Balance: Use any of the previous spread styles while hitting enemies with higher remaining health more often. Keep all enemies alive as long as possible to truly maximize the number of counters. Beware PA will wear off more easily due to the uneven and inconsistent targeting.

Kill then Spread: Kill some monsters individually until the remaining mob is the desired size for optimum spread performance. Depending on player level, equipment, Daemon Duality, and the usage of Imperil or Haste the full spread options may not be the best, in which case this is likely a better method.

The Half Spread: Against large mobs, spread and kill only some of the monsters first, then spread and kill the remaining ones. Probably an improved version of the Kill then Spread method unless you want to kill specific monsters, or during tough challenges such as Grindfest and Item World. The first group can be left to die instead of wiped out.

Perfect Micromanagement: Minimize the number of turns by picking the perfect targets for every situation. You can benefit by hitting only Stunned enemies and never letting Penetrated Armor wear off even while fully spreading your attacks. Wastes way more time than it is worth but nice in theory.

I've always used Haste yet recently realized I have still been underestimating it. Despite many 1H players disliking Haste for the reason that it reduces the number of counter attacks by a third, it also extends the duration of your ailments by 50% which uniquely benefits the 1H style.

Penetrated Armor improves to 10 turns which makes the spread more effective. Overwhelming Strikes goes from 4 to 6 turns, becoming almost permanent in non-Imperil Rapier style. It still wears off occasionally thus I estimate I have Overwhelm x3 on average, for 60% counter-parry. It only inflicts 30% of the time so keeping it up is harder than Penetrated Armor which inflicts over 66% of the time on high level players, and more with Balance parts.

At worst Haste lowers your overall damage by 12% due to drop in counters. In practice some found a negligible drop in damage, and even an improvement in clear times. I previously attributed this to tests being done in Grindfest where ease of play together with the extended duration of Heartseeker and other buffs offset the damage loss.

If the true reason was improved Penetrated Armor, Overwhelming Strikes, and Stun duration then these benefits apply to arenas as well. Although most arenas don't have large mobs until the end so improved PA while spreading won't help as much.

In theory Swift Strike should be just as good as Haste but past tests suggested to me that maybe Swift Strike would never increase the duration of Penetrated Armor and Overwhelming Strikes because the amount is not enough to reach the difference threshold. Today I again tested Swift Strike (presumably, since I have 1.7% action speed bonus) without Haste to make things easier.

Swift Strike does seem to occasionally increase the duration of all ailments. When the duration of my inflicted ailments randomly increased at the start of rounds, they typically increase together. I've seen PA, Overwhelm, Stun, and Burn all simultaneously inflict with +1 duration. However if inflicted again later in the same round the duration would not be increased again. It appears there is some sort of timing jitter algorithm that is not described on the Action Speed section of the wiki, in order to keep speed bonuses fully functional at low amounts. Monsters were known to jitter, but not the player.

Swift Strike may be even better than Haste because the durations increased much more often than I would expect from the math, so there may be quirks in the jitter algorithm that favor low amounts of speed bonus. I also think I noticed that Overwhelming Strikes may get +1 duration, or perhaps a random fraction of a turn, each time a round ends (I am guessing this has nothing to do with Swift Strike).

Just for reference, the normal durations of ailments are below. I tested all these things with script turned off so I could count and analyze each turn carefully.

Penetrated Armor - 7 turns. You get to hit the enemy 7 times after inflicting PA. The "turns remaining" counter goes from 6 to 0, and you get to hit them again at 0.
Overwhelming Strikes - 4 turns. The "turns remaining" counter goes from 3 to 0. If Swift Strike gives an additional turn the counter will display 4 to 0.
Stun - 3 turns. The true duration is 4 turns just like DW club but in 1H it's inflicted when the monster hits you. The desync causes a turn to be lost in nearly all cases.
Burn - 3 turns. Same as above, the true duration is 4 turns but losing a fraction of a turn usually loses a whole turn. The counter typically displays 2 to 0.

I was surprised at how poorly my Overwhelming Strikes performed without Haste. I felt like it was inflicted only half the time, so I don't even get the +15% attack damage bonus! And on average I would only have 10% counter-parry from Overwhelming x1, this is pathetic compared to its power with Haste. All the other 1H players who don't use Haste should probably tell me I'm wrong: I only did the first two arenas today without Haste.

Though I won't claim I proved anything, right now all evidence suggests that Haste and Swift Strike are extremely beneficial for 1H style. They might be just as good as in Dual Wield or any other style!

We failed to appreciate before just how much better Overwhelming Strikes, Stun, and spread out Penetrated Armor get with Haste. If my crude estimations are accurate, using Haste gives us a 5~7% raw damage bonus just from Overwhelming Strikes being active way more often! That's already making up half the damage lost to counters in big arenas (in small arenas it fully makes up the counter damage).

Plus we get around 50% more counter-parry, roughly the equivalent of Overpower 12. Extrapolating the results from Research for 1H thread that's worth 1.3075% * 2.5 = 3.27% more hits. So altogether Haste unconditionally improves 1H by 8~9% from Overwhelming Strikes alone before considering the other factors like PA or difficulty.

If this is true then we've been doing so many things wrong. 1H can use the same stats as DW with nearly balanced Agility. SDA shields are as good as SDE shields, and we should be aiming for low burden armor. All 1H players should be using Haste in Grindfest, IW, and all arenas, except for perhaps Imperil styles (Penetrated Armor duration doesn't matter and Overwhelming Strikes is more likely to wear off anyway).

Though I won't claim I proved anything, right now all evidence suggests that Haste and Swift Strike are extremely beneficial for 1H style. They might be just as good as in Dual Wield or any other style!

Particularly in regards to this comparison: how does the increased attack speed affect your OC generation? Are you still capable of keeping up Spirit Stance infinitely, and is there an excess enough to use weapon skills in addition to this?