[X] My Assistant

Just finished sacrificing 40 Precursor Artifacts and the Stat Bonus I get is:
STR +2
DEX +2
AGI +1
END +4
INT +4 (fokk, I am not a Mage (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif))
WIS +2
So in total it's 15 out of 40 tries, not bad I guess (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by Adhinferno Bloodmoon: Dec 28 2021, 05:55

The difference in ADB between light and heavy kinda negates any fighting style advantage DW, 2H or Niten could have, especially since 1H can perma-stance, those others cannot.

You can check out the Battle Records thread for a little reference - heavy DW only comes out very slightly ahead of 1H against schoolgirls. I haven't recorded DW IW/fest yet this way because it's just... a lot more dangerous, and a little slower so far. Light would be significantly slower and leave 1H clearly dominant.

Niten can get away with heavy in arenas, too (although I'm not sure how well it'll fare in SPL). 2H isn't really so lucky, and that is a significant impediment. lololo16 told me before that niten plays fastest in the non-SG arenas, while DW is fastest against SGs.

It's also worth noting that I don't think my DW clears would have been faster than 1H without Manehattan Project. In that case, 1H would have beaten it quite cleanly. Vital Strike is really, really good, combined with perma-stance, and while Frenzied Blows is also fantastic, it's not quite as strong a precision tool, so it's much more RNG-dependent in terms of SG positioning.

I started off as a DW player on persistent and played that up til level 450, and then returned to it at level 500. In season 1 of isekai, I played dual wield using light armors up til floor 90, where I switched to 1H light. It's better than people think, and it can go faster than you'd expect too, but it does take some effort. It's not even remotely close to 1H light in terms of survival, and 1H heavy is still comfortably ahead, but it's still a strong competitor and certainly the closest to it.

I played 2H light on isekai season 2 up til floor 50 in the Tower, which should be roughly comparable to part way through a pfest. It's not pleasant at all, and much weaker than I expected - and I already expected it to be weak. On persistent, you can leverage FRD with a longsword for a little more damage and safety than you can get with just a mace on its own. The lack of avoidance is a killer.

2H, DW and Niten all take significantly more attention than 1H if you want even remotely comparable results. They're not often comfortable and they're certainly not lazy.

Shade definitely have a LOT less adb, that's for sure. Power of slaughter has about twice. Doesn't help that 2h's prof based attack bonus is lower, and that domino is capped at 90%.
I'd still love for it to work, though. But it may really be more wishful thinking than anything else. This is where it'd be actually kinda neat if you could mix armor types. But alas.

As for the Vital Strike thing: It may just be my luck, but I have too many runs where Vital Strike refuses to bleed (and as such also crit). There's a huge random variance with that ability.

As for the Vital Strike thing: It may just be my luck, but I have too many runs where Vital Strike refuses to bleed (and as such also crit). There's a huge random variance with that ability.

If I remember right, it's about 50/50 on the bleed, and obviously crit depends on your crit rate, but spirit Vital Strikes are still provably extremely effective both for high level players and low level players - Greshnik posted an excellent example of lower level 1H play.

If I remember right, it's about 50/50 on the bleed, and obviously crit depends on your crit rate, but spirit Vital Strikes are still provably extremely effective both for high level players and low level players - Greshnik posted an excellent example of lower level 1H play.

Speaking of lower level. I just switched from 1h heavy to 1h light in Isekai, and the difference is actually quite significant. I feel like leather > plate is likely a thing, especially on lower level.

-No burden above 70, so full crit-rate + light crit. When your crit-rate isn't that great yet, the difference can be massive. Also more accuracy when it still matters.
-Resistance against heavy hitting spells

From struggling on Hell (1h heavy) to relatively straight forward Nintendo (1h light). Level 240 in this case. Below level 250 you don't have the actual useful Weaken yet, nor a reliable spirit shield. Feels good, to say the least.
Iwbth is stressful, but doable once the full weaken is there. Until then too many enemies are a problem, though a scroll could help. This is largely because of the difficulty difference at level 240 is pl ~1500 at Nintendo to maxed pl past that. All of the good old enemy names I see on persistent start to appear there.


As for dwd speed and the respective link there, it's hard for me to compare. I use a cold Rapier, no imperil, no Infusion, but Haste. I generally just hover over a school girl until she has double pen. armor, and vital strike. (right click of mouse -> impulse Vital Strike) So when Vital Strike doesn't bleed it usually means I need to continue with the hover for quite some time.
Last 30 rounds I do the same if cannon is on cooldown, otherwise proc pen. armor on each girl and shoot.

That run in question uses a holy Shortsword, Imperil with Aether Shard, an Infusion, no Haste and absolutely no cannon. It couldn't be more different. The time seems really high, but that might be because of connection or mobile or something. That said, some of the other posts about DW make me feel like my 1h days are probably not going to be over anytime soon.

If I remember right, it's about 50/50 on the bleed, and obviously crit depends on your crit rate, but spirit Vital Strikes are still provably extremely effective both for high level players and low level players - Greshnik posted an excellent example of lower level 1H play.

Althought I don't have much 1H play experience and data, but the bleed chance should be higher, yesterday there were 70 bleeds in 118 Vital Strike of my Eternal Darkness play, and actually the chance could be higher, because some of the target directly killed before bleed could happen. Also it may only my guess, the bleed could probobly connected to Stun status of the monsters, I haven't saw monster bleed without stun. So depend on your attack damage and monster status the bleed chance of Vital Strike may be big different.
For the crit chance, it should be correct that connected to your attack crit chance. In my DW play experience the overall Frenzied Blows crit chance is little lower than the attack crit chance, and I guess it because the crit Frenzied Blow overkill monsters that make it less blows. But that should not affect the crit chance of Vital Strike

Speaking of lower level. I just switched from 1h heavy to 1h light in Isekai, and the difference is actually quite significant. I feel like leather > plate is likely a thing, especially on lower level.

Funny, I've actually had the opposite experience last season, where plate was clearly better than leather at very low level, and then it evens out somewhere around level 200. But this is very anecdotal so not really research.

From struggling on Hell (1h heavy) to relatively straight forward Nintendo (1h light). Level 240 in this case. Below level 250 you don't have the actual useful Weaken yet, nor a reliable spirit shield. Feels good, to say the least.
Iwbth is stressful, but doable once the full weaken is there. Until then too many enemies are a problem, though a scroll could help. This is largely because of the difficulty difference at level 240 is pl ~1500 at Nintendo to maxed pl past that. All of the good old enemy names I see on persistent start to appear there.

I dunno, man, I'm running 1H heavy this season and I've been comfortably doing PFUDOR since before that level, without using Weaken or Spirit Shield at all. I think you might just be either mismanaging your gear, or at the very least, very very unlucky with your drops to not have any useful exquisites yet.

Althought I don't have much 1H play experience and data, but the bleed chance should be higher, yesterday there were 70 bleeds in 118 Vital Strike of my Eternal Darkness play, and actually the chance could be higher, because some of the target directly killed before bleed could happen. Also it may only my guess, the bleed could probobly connected to Stun status of the monsters, I haven't saw monster bleed without stun. So depend on your attack damage and monster status the bleed chance of Vital Strike may be big different.

What weapon were you using, out of interest? I wonder if the bleed chance from a weapon proc is included in the calculation for some reason. (As far as I know it doesn't trigger other procs, but I can't say I've looked that closely.)

But yeah, it could very well be higher than 50/50, that's just my experience with it.

And yes, Vital Strike only causes the bleed against stunned enemies, although it's not guaranteed.

For the crit chance, it should be correct that connected to your attack crit chance. In my DW play experience the overall Frenzied Blows crit chance is little lower than the attack crit chance, and I guess it because the crit Frenzied Blow overkill monsters that make it less blows. But that should not affect the crit chance of Vital Strike

All damage crits as normal unless otherwise stated (the only cases I can think of being counter-attacks, and merciful blow against <20% HP targets, since critting them would be redundant).

What weapon were you using, out of interest? I wonder if the bleed chance from a weapon proc is included in the calculation for some reason. (As far as I know it doesn't trigger other procs, but I can't say I've looked that closely.)

Rapier, the bleed should only come from Vital Strike

I've been comfortably doing PFUDOR since before that level, without using Weaken or Spirit Shield at all. I think you might just be either mismanaging your gear, or at the very least, very very unlucky with your drops to not have any useful exquisites yet.

I didn't get very good drops. Quite a bit is from the bazaar. My first noodles went to a shield. Ended up a mag kite shield, which is better than nothing, but yeah. The plate armor was bad, and the power armor even worse.
Isekai is really just about getting by with whatever the bazaar and drops give you.

But yeah, it could very well be higher than 50/50, that's just my experience with it.

It's probably higher, because of crit = bleed, like with normal weapon procs. It's hard to say what the actual non crit bleed rate is. 50/50 might very well be true. It's 50% bleed damage.. so maybe.
Let's just say I don't think I've ever seen a crit Vital Strike that didn't bleed, so there's at least that.


edit: I just tested 2h @pfudor, the 25 round arena.

A random check of 1h: 474turns
2h mace without upgrades: 702turns

So first of all: Doable. However unfortunately you get forced into needing to use cure too often. Probably because monster lab offers both accuracy AND evade ignore for monsters, and evasion isn't as good as block.

Comparison of stats:
1h vs 2h
8426 abd vs 5828 abd
191.8% hit vs 179.8% hit
42.8% crit vs 42.2% crit
2% speed vs 32% speed
28245 health vs 21105 health
1745magic vs 1802 magic
1404spirit vs 1296 spirit
77.2% phys mit vs 69.4 phys mit
71% magic mit vs 62.7 magic mit
39.7% crush vs 25.1% crush
49.6% slash vs 24.8% slash
48.8% pierce vs 0% pierce
3.2% evade vs 52.8% evade (+shadow veil so.. 64.6% evade effectively)
64.4% block vs 0% block
57.7% parry vs 37.9% parry
17.4% resist vs 68.8% resist

If we look at those stats, 2h is obviously taking more physical damage, and has more trouble ignoring it, too. In exchange it should be very rare for magic to fully hit. Although depending on the type, even a single resist trigger could not be enough to mitigate enough to keep up with 1h's superior mitigation. (are there "physical" spells? I never actually paid attention if "spells" could be crush, slash or piercing damage for monsters)
Attack damage of 1h is 44.5% more, all the while 2h needed 48% more turns.

And with that the experiment ends. It basically said what people figured out already. When you just start out in Isekai, low level, 2h performs really well. But much later in the game, you have way too tanky enemies. Not even 2h's Shatter Strike can keep up with that. I used a little bit of imperil as well, but with its miss-rate, you have to spend a lot of turns, as even just missing one enemy takes quite a long time. Or rather, that's where 2h sucks at anyway, single enemies being beefy.
Being adamant with Imperil can probably shave off a few turns, but I seriously doubt that it'd be enough to make 2h worthwhile. Doubly so because I COULD do that with 1h as well after all. (and it'd help reduce turns, but probably cost more actual time)

I don't think even gear upgrades can mitigate this. It'd help, yes. Especially getting hitrate to a better value, getting some more evasion (though most evasion comes from stats) and obviously attack. But given that the idea was that 2h ideally performs better than 1h against relatively big amounts of normal enemies, that feels unlikely, even with heavily upgraded and good gear. The market price difference for upgrades of shade vs. power isn't limiting power armor enough to make a big enough difference. To be fair, you also get shade much cheaper in auctions, so that'd be a "free" 30-50 or so levels of ADB raising, compared to a power of slaughter piece.
But in the end, even fully upgrading ADB of all gear I have right now would not make 2h better. The turn difference and time difference is too big.

2h really needs love. It's definitely "playable", with a good set of gear assembled, but 1h is playable way earlier, can handle school girl arenas without issues and it feels like there's literally no disadvantage compared to 2h in any way. 2h could still have a weird niche in low difficulty play. I'm trying that in Isekai. Unfortunately I only have a Katana. For that you'd ideally want an Estoc.. I think. Especially before level 310.

This post has been edited by killi890: Jan 1 2022, 10:29

Wrong stuff was here once.

This post has been edited by killi890: Jan 19 2022, 11:39

Noni edit: this thread is for research: calculations & experiments with sufficient scale. Please use other threads for (casual) theory crafting etc

This post has been edited by Noni: Feb 2 2022, 08:44

I've tracked for interval of new riddlemaster

first : 2~5, 21~101 round
next : +20~100 round

the distribution of rounds for two riddlemaster is seems to uniform, as like as old riddlemaster.

We know about arcane score for comparing mage builds. Even better is looking at the mitigation 75% score vs maximum monster resist (for fests) or the appropriate row vs schoolgirl (for sg arenas), since that takes into account prof factor and counter-resist. However, in fests dealing consistent damage is also important. I propose another metric I call min9 score for comparing mage builds for festing, based on the expected amount of damage dealt to the least damaged monster out of nine monsters after one spell. The assumption here is that speed of clearing a round is primarily based on the result of one T3 spell.

(Math warning)

My inspiration came from [math.stackexchange.com] this page about expected maximum dice roll when rolling multiple dice. In HV, there are eight possible outcomes for damage: 2 for crit (crit or no crit) multiplied by 4 for resist (resist 0, 50, 75, or 90), and with current crit chance ranges they always follow the same order of damage dealt:

no crit resist 90 < crit resist 90 < no crit resist 75 < crit resist 75 < no crit resist 50 < crit resist 50 < no crit resist 0 < crit resist 0.

(It's straightforward enough to calculate the probability and damage for each outcome.) Number these outcomes 1-8 in order of damage, and let d1, d2,..., d8 be the additional damage dealt over the next lowest outcome. Like with the dice example, let Xmin be the minimum outcome among 9 rolls, and let Xi for i=1,2,...8 be the random variable whose value is 1 if Xmin≥Xi and 0 otherwise. Here, Xmin equals the sum of Xi*di over i=1,2,...8. By a similar argument to the dice problem, the expected value of Xmin equals the sum of P(Xmin≥i)*di over i=1,2,...8, each of which we can calculate fairly easily.

(End math warning)

So how does this work out in practice? Since we already know willow >>> redwood for imperil fests, I calculated these min9 scores for my (terrible) nonimperil cold mage with willow and redwood. Since nonimperil cold is bad, I only used equipment I already have forged to some degree, namely prof shoes and pants, charged phase hat and radiant phase robe and gloves. To make up for the bad equipment, I lowered the difficulty (I did account for reduced monster resist chance) and played on cold day. Here are my results:



The redwood has higher average damage, but the willow had similar min9, suggesting it might perform as well if I had enough damage or lowered the difficulty sufficiently. It turns out I didn't have enough damage for one T3 spell to primarily determine the speed of the round, but the performance gap did decrease as I reduced difficulty. Maybe some of you with more damage can help me test.

I also calculated min9 scores for some endgame builds to make some predictions. (I assume 600 prof and 100% rolls except where otherwise specified.) First off, mystic gear suffers badly by this metric due to inconsistent damage. Mystic is a good budget option vs SGs, but should perform poorly in fests. Considering the ludicrous prices for holy radiants, here's a comparison of radiants, 0% edb radiants, and mystics with a HOH:



This suggests that even terrible radiants may perfom better than mystics in fests. Now what about holy staff options? HOH is known to be the best, but let's compare a HOH with 0% roll on EDB and MDB vs other staff options:



This suggests that while a holy katalox staff might be great vs SGs, even a terrible HOH may still be better for festing. Even lowering the difficulty (and maximum monster resist) only narrows the predicted gap.

Finally, let us consider elemental nonimperil builds:



Redwood of the elementalist had been touted as potentially the best elemental nonimperil staff due to highest arcane score and mitigation 75% score, but then tests showed that willow is much faster. Indeed, elec/wind willow has a much higher min9 score than any redwood. Even fire/cold willow may be better. Interestingly, the focus suffix does well with min9 score since more consistent crits means more consistent damage, however the overall damage is still too low to compete.

I hope some more experienced players can share their experiences and let me know if this stuff makes any sense or is remotely helpful.

This post has been edited by mathl33t: Jun 9 2022, 03:57

It's late, but here are my 1H Imperil tests that I did two years ago. They didn't have any surprising results so I forgot about them. Arenas were repeated twice on Wednesday and Thursday with neutral dark rapier plus holy infusion. I did this for a month to compare my performance using varying amounts of Imperil.

I was at level 388 and over the course of the tests my deprecating proficiency rose from 412 to 414. No aether shards were used, no enchantress perk. These results are thus pessimistic but may be considered a reasonable starting point when a medium level rapier user is considering to start using Imperil style, and is wondering what the initial benefit is.

No Imperil usage (baseline)

55 rounds - 849 turns 0:05:37 (2.519 t/s) / 865 turns 0:05:50 (2.471 t/s)
60 rounds - 1,048 turns 0:06:59 (2.501 t/s) / 1,052 turns 0:07:15 (2.418 t/s)
65 rounds - 1,170 turns 0:07:42 (2.532 t/s) / 1,128 turns 0:07:31 (2.501 t/s)
80 rounds - 1,459 turns 0:09:20 (2.605 t/s) / 1,500 turns 0:09:57 (2.513 t/s)
90 rounds - 1,457 turns 0:09:39 (2.516 t/s) / 1,411 turns 0:09:22 (2.511 t/s)

One Imperil per round (Faster Imperil only trained to target 1 enemy for lowest mana cost)

55 rounds - 899 turns 0:07:00 (2.14 t/s) Imperil: 55 / 854 turns 0:06:25 (2.218 t/s) Imperil: 55
60 rounds - 1,093 turns 0:08:16 (2.204 t/s) Imperil: 60 / 1,046 turns 0:07:27 (2.34 t/s) Imperil: 61
65 rounds - 1,140 turns 0:08:21 (2.275 t/s) Imperil: 65 / 1,152 turns 0:08:10 (2.351 t/s) Imperil: 65
80 rounds - 1,452 turns 0:10:27 (2.316 t/s) Imperil: 80 / 1,488 turns 0:10:09 (2.443 t/s) Imperil: 80
90 rounds - 1,421 turns 0:10:32 (2.248 t/s) Imperil: 90 / 1,441 turns 0:10:05 (2.382 t/s) Imperil: 90

One Imperil per round (Faster Imperil trained to target 2 enemies)

55 rounds - 828 turns 0:06:20 (2.179 t/s) Imperil: 55 / 798 turns 0:05:44 (2.32 t/s) Imperil: 54
60 rounds - 1,016 turns 0:07:53 (2.148 t/s) Imperil: 59 / 1,015 turns 0:07:34 (2.236 t/s) Imperil: 59
65 rounds - 1,103 turns 0:08:12 (2.242 t/s) Imperil: 64 / 1,111 turns 0:07:48 (2.374 t/s) Imperil: 65
80 rounds - 1,408 turns 0:09:54 (2.37 t/s) Imperil: 78 / 1,395 turns 0:09:55 (2.345 t/s) Imperil: 78
90 rounds - 1,344 turns 0:09:33 (2.346 t/s) Imperil: 89 / 1,394 turns 0:09:38 (2.412 t/s) Imperil: 90

One Imperil per round (Faster Imperil fully trained to target 3 enemies)

55 rounds - 812 turns 0:05:43 (2.367 t/s) Imperil: 54 / 784 turns 0:05:46 (2.266 t/s) Imperil: 56
60 rounds - 981 turns 0:07:13 (2.266 t/s) Imperil: 60 / 963 turns 0:07:26 (2.159 t/s) Imperil: 60
65 rounds - 1,023 turns 0:07:17 (2.341 t/s) Imperil: 65 / 1,048 turns 0:07:53 (2.216 t/s) Imperil: 65
80 rounds - 1,330 turns 0:09:16 (2.392 t/s) Imperil: 80 / 1,362 turns 0:09:43 (2.336 t/s) Imperil: 80
90 rounds - 1,322 turns 0:09:05 (2.426 t/s) Imperil: 88 / 1,334 turns 0:09:12 (2.417 t/s) Imperil: 89

Multiple Imperils per round (Two Imperils in 5 monster rounds, Three Imperils in 8 monster rounds)

55 rounds - 744 turns 0:05:45 (2.157 t/s) Imperil: 83 / 763 turns 0:06:13 (2.046 t/s) Imperil: 83
60 rounds - 914 turns 0:07:54 (1.928 t/s) Imperil: 131 / 888 turns 0:07:22 (2.009 t/s) Imperil: 130
65 rounds - 981 turns 0:08:12 (1.994 t/s) Imperil: 139 / 972 turns 0:08:11 (1.98 t/s) Imperil: 142
80 rounds - 1,292 turns 0:10:46 (2 t/s) Imperil: 175 / 1,234 turns 0:09:10 (2.244 t/s) Imperil: 167
90 rounds - 1,279 turns 0:10:12 (2.125 t/s) Imperil: 136 / 1,255 turns 0:09:06 (2.299 t/s) Imperil: 131

Conclusion, there was no benefit to Imperil at all. It also didn't hurt me. Imperil gets better as your level rises, so this is just its starting point for skeptics and lazy people. Others may have varying experiences. I have some max forged equipment and DD5, which makes Imperil less helpful.

With only 1 target monster, Imperil did not improve my turns, and I simply got 8~15% slower due to a turns/second drop. I used mouse wheel up to cast Imperil; I recall I had checked and I was about as fast as other mouse-only users. The keyboard will help to play quicker, but there may still be some turns/second drop unless you are okay with flying past round clears and accidentally hitting monsters to open succeeding rounds.

Each additional target monster reduced my turns until at full Faster Imperil training I had the same clear times as no Imperil usage. Casting multiple Imperils per round worsened my clear times because of further turns/second drop, with some Imperils having fewer than 3 valid targets each. With keyboard there should be no further turns/second drop and this would perform much better.

In case there is any interaction, I always used Fire Shield, Haste, and had a lowest tier 1.7% attack speed bonus from Swift Strike.

The wiki says the following
Where does 27.5% come from?
-snap-

two weeks arena datas:
totally 82596 monsters, 24838 items drop, about 30% drop rate
but that's probably not the actually random drop rate, because of the SGs and clear bonus
except the special monsters and trophies:
70949 normal mosters, about 23.3K items drop, minus the clear bonus, should be little higher than 30%
edit: the datas includes some RE result and the last round bonus, and it's difficult to filter them out, so this data is meaningless

not really a serious research, but since I posted some wrong data so just correct them here: the two weeks datas includes some RE and last round bonus so the result is not reliable.
I check some other datas:

CODE

45/50 Scavenger trainings
# | battle        | monsters | drops  | drop rate
-------------------------------------------------------
1 | 374 * TT&T    | 148852   | 41787  | 28.0%
2 | #1-last round | 147356   | 40213  | 27.3%
3 | 354 * IW      | 254849   | 68317  | 26.8%
4 | 1 * 1000GF    | 8316     | 6210   | 36.7%

the #2 & #3 shows maybe the expected maximum 27.5% random drop chance is correct, don't know how it come although. and maybe there's no difference between arena and IW ( and maybe also GF )

This is easy to test. Mobs in grindfest can drop an item and crystals:
Or they can drop crystals twice, or credits and crystals:
Or an equip and crystals:

and since kamio11 have confirm there is another independent crystals drop in GF, I guess the additional crystals drop chance in GF is fixed 10%. guess only, since I don't have enough datas to prove that

This post has been edited by what_is_name: Aug 10 2022, 10:00

The total number of unique monsters seen was 2790.
I fought a total of 167,268 monsters. ('Total appearances'.)
The average power level per appearance was 1821. (Total power level / appearances.)
The average power level per unique monster was 1612. (Total power level / unique monsters.)
178 different players have monsters high level enough to show in max-level PFests.
The number of appearances made by level 2250 monsters was 30,948. This is 18.5% of all appearances.

2 years have passed, and this is how the monsters have changed:

The total number of unique monsters seen was 2951.
I fought a total of 167,517 monsters across 20 PFUDOR grindfests. ('Total appearances'.)
The average power level per appearance was 1901. (Total power level / appearances.)
The average power level per unique monster was 1701. (Total power level / unique monsters.)
The number of appearances made by level 2250 monsters was 37,936. This is 22.6% of all appearances.

Top 100 players, sorted by the number of times I saw their monsters:

CODE

|   Rank | Trainer           |   Monsters |   Counted |   % of Total Apps |   Avg/Count |   Avg/Monster |   Total pLvl |   % of Total Dmg |
|--------|-------------------|------------|-----------|-------------------|-------------|---------------|--------------|------------------|
|      1 | Sushilicious      |        200 |     16867 |            10.069 |        1935 |          1925 |       385012 |            7.132 |
|      2 | Deadbeatvvv       |        196 |     15133 |             9.034 |        2027 |          2015 |       394980 |            9.417 |
|      3 | Nero-Arc          |        200 |     14820 |             8.847 |        1839 |          1839 |       367884 |            8.837 |
|      4 | morineko          |        200 |     14799 |             8.834 |        1752 |          1701 |       340328 |           10.607 |
|      5 | serorin           |        105 |     10649 |             6.357 |        1697 |          1694 |       177927 |            7.311 |
|      6 | sssss2            |        200 |     10380 |             6.196 |        2100 |          1705 |       341054 |            8.055 |
|      7 | gc00018           |        106 |      7968 |             4.757 |        1743 |          1686 |       178748 |            6.021 |
|      8 | Petal_Kiss        |        200 |      6113 |             3.649 |        2002 |          1552 |       310443 |            3.31  |
|      9 | MidNightPass      |        112 |      5906 |             3.526 |        1656 |          1611 |       180476 |            3.262 |
|     10 | NerfThis          |        141 |      4632 |             2.765 |        2203 |          1590 |       224194 |            3.298 |
|     11 | Nezu              |         48 |      4399 |             2.626 |        1853 |          1727 |        82923 |            2.899 |
|     12 | moanim            |         80 |      3504 |             2.092 |        1960 |          1873 |       149859 |            1.853 |
|     13 | Koaen             |          7 |      3045 |             1.818 |        2214 |          2209 |        15469 |            2.237 |
|     14 | danixxx           |         15 |      2009 |             1.199 |        1723 |          1688 |        25331 |            1.177 |
|     15 | .@_@.@_@.         |         31 |      1714 |             1.023 |        1975 |          1805 |        55978 |            0.971 |
|     16 | Noni              |         37 |      1589 |             0.949 |        1725 |          1723 |        63751 |            0.432 |
|     17 | kamio11           |         11 |      1576 |             0.941 |        1909 |          1753 |        19287 |            0.448 |
|     18 | RoadShoe          |        131 |      1531 |             0.914 |        1740 |          1485 |       194602 |            0.341 |
|     19 | Honeycat          |          4 |      1427 |             0.852 |        2242 |          2062 |         8250 |            0.542 |
|     20 | Mantra64          |         14 |      1402 |             0.837 |        1760 |          1645 |        23033 |            0.455 |
|     21 | threekoala        |         23 |      1306 |             0.78  |        1935 |          1585 |        36475 |            0.288 |
|     22 | StonyCat          |          3 |      1288 |             0.769 |        2177 |          2161 |         6483 |            0.747 |
|     23 | 我叫木头           |          5 |      1250 |             0.746 |        2249 |          2197 |        10989 |            0.232 |
|     24 | dnszkdl           |         11 |      1248 |             0.745 |        1670 |          1668 |        18354 |            0.317 |
|     25 | jantch            |         14 |      1092 |             0.652 |        1834 |          1809 |        25326 |            0.25  |
|     26 | 15112006          |         20 |      1048 |             0.626 |        1838 |          1828 |        36561 |            0.182 |
|     27 | ddwiki            |          4 |      1014 |             0.605 |        2021 |          1944 |         7776 |            0.974 |
|     28 | another planet    |          2 |       986 |             0.589 |        2250 |          2250 |         4500 |            0.85  |
|     29 | qdjseh001         |         88 |       979 |             0.584 |        1502 |          1502 |       132186 |            0.378 |
|     30 | Void Domain       |          2 |       957 |             0.571 |        2250 |          2250 |         4500 |            0.739 |
|     31 | warachiasion      |          3 |       795 |             0.475 |        2038 |          1957 |         5872 |            0.746 |
|     32 | EsotericSatire    |          3 |       790 |             0.472 |        2041 |          1898 |         5696 |            0.236 |
|     33 | Thick Meat Maniac |         74 |       762 |             0.455 |        1622 |          1595 |       118080 |            0.138 |
|     34 | Ichy              |          3 |       760 |             0.454 |        2064 |          1877 |         5632 |            0.533 |
|     35 | foobarwtf         |          2 |       683 |             0.408 |        2095 |          2016 |         4033 |            0.535 |
|     36 | KINOSHITAMIKOTO   |          5 |       679 |             0.405 |        2051 |          1731 |         8658 |            0.42  |
|     37 | fihero            |          2 |       664 |             0.396 |        2103 |          1999 |         3999 |            0.297 |
|     38 | Chizuru Ichinose  |        109 |       641 |             0.383 |        1550 |          1532 |       167025 |            0.251 |
|     39 | mouisaac          |         16 |       592 |             0.353 |        1561 |          1561 |        24990 |            0.195 |
|     40 | ashimoto          |          3 |       566 |             0.338 |        1809 |          1796 |         5390 |            0.101 |
|     41 | HTTP/308          |          5 |       512 |             0.306 |        2192 |          1648 |         8240 |            0.443 |
|     42 | SakiRaFubuKi      |          3 |       504 |             0.301 |        2250 |          2250 |         6750 |            0.536 |
|     43 | Dreamophobia      |          1 |       503 |             0.3   |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.43  |
|     44 | Ming28561         |         21 |       497 |             0.297 |        2221 |          1724 |        36210 |            0.376 |
|     45 | arialinnoc        |          6 |       493 |             0.294 |        2053 |          1601 |         9606 |            0.418 |
|     46 | atomicpuppy       |          5 |       486 |             0.29  |        2249 |          2238 |        11190 |            0.4   |
|     47 | tibus1979         |          1 |       483 |             0.288 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.183 |
|     48 | biborobi          |          1 |       470 |             0.281 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.409 |
|     49 | eliudnir          |          1 |       469 |             0.28  |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.279 |
|     50 | Thira             |          1 |       465 |             0.278 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.447 |
|     51 | TheTornPrince     |          1 |       456 |             0.272 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.329 |
|     52 | poi999poi         |         41 |       427 |             0.255 |        1505 |          1505 |        61726 |            0.082 |
|     53 | cylinnia          |         43 |       426 |             0.254 |        1517 |          1519 |        65356 |            0.271 |
|     54 | 东三雪碧           |          4 |       425 |             0.254 |        1786 |          1655 |         6622 |            0.391 |
|     55 | LTF               |          2 |       424 |             0.253 |        2247 |          2001 |         4003 |            0.137 |
|     56 | Ass Spanker       |          3 |       412 |             0.246 |        2246 |          1915 |         5745 |            0.215 |
|     57 | treesloth         |          6 |       405 |             0.242 |        1622 |          1613 |         9683 |            0.286 |
|     58 | Mahiro-kyun       |          2 |       380 |             0.227 |        1923 |          1786 |         3573 |            0.242 |
|     59 | LittleSnowBoy     |          1 |       362 |             0.216 |        2033 |          2033 |         2033 |            0.114 |
|     60 | rjgc              |          1 |       359 |             0.214 |        2013 |          2013 |         2013 |            0.333 |
|     61 | sky15jam          |          1 |       353 |             0.211 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.079 |
|     62 | Hentai Woody      |          1 |       350 |             0.209 |        2003 |          2003 |         2003 |            0.271 |
|     63 | Anemone           |          1 |       337 |             0.201 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.327 |
|     64 | Amiya             |          1 |       322 |             0.192 |        1983 |          1983 |         1983 |            0.121 |
|     65 | J.L.              |          2 |       319 |             0.19  |        1771 |          1722 |         3444 |            0.115 |
|     66 | Hinoka            |          2 |       311 |             0.186 |        2249 |          2197 |         4395 |            0.306 |
|     67 | Maximum_Joe       |          1 |       308 |             0.184 |        1895 |          1895 |         1895 |            0.077 |
|     68 | Nekobenki         |          3 |       306 |             0.183 |        1787 |          1653 |         4961 |            0.309 |
|     69 | sehokila          |          7 |       295 |             0.176 |        1609 |          1605 |        11240 |            0.235 |
|     70 | Alicia Florence   |          2 |       283 |             0.169 |        1728 |          1728 |         3456 |            0.181 |
|     71 | lord of dao       |          2 |       268 |             0.16  |        1848 |          1693 |         3386 |            0.222 |
|     72 | sabregimp         |         12 |       257 |             0.153 |        1539 |          1533 |        18403 |            0.101 |
|     73 | unitready         |          1 |       256 |             0.153 |        1869 |          1869 |         1869 |            0.247 |
|     74 | hayate hisakawa   |          3 |       246 |             0.147 |        1672 |          1627 |         4881 |            0.186 |
|     75 | Bane13            |          1 |       234 |             0.14  |        2028 |          2028 |         2028 |            0.081 |
|     76 | dkdk554           |          1 |       231 |             0.138 |        1839 |          1839 |         1839 |            0.138 |
|     77 | Kira.Yoshikage    |         21 |       206 |             0.123 |        1501 |          1501 |        31531 |            0.069 |
|     78 | ace_amuro         |          2 |       200 |             0.119 |        1659 |          1644 |         3288 |            0.104 |
|     79 | Sapo84            |          2 |       193 |             0.115 |        1629 |          1629 |         3258 |            0.142 |
|     80 | 雨宮 優子          |          2 |       178 |             0.106 |        1671 |          1671 |         3343 |            0.134 |
|     81 | FullestDay        |          1 |       174 |             0.104 |        1773 |          1773 |         1773 |            0.135 |
|     82 | Atypical          |          5 |       173 |             0.103 |        1559 |          1543 |         7718 |            0.062 |
|     83 | e-Stark           |          1 |       170 |             0.101 |        1728 |          1728 |         1728 |            0.159 |
|     84 | mfs5vnut32        |         14 |       155 |             0.093 |        1560 |          1560 |        21840 |            0.059 |
|     85 | hgbdd             |         12 |       150 |             0.09  |        2176 |          1790 |        21489 |            0.061 |
|     86 | Basara Nekki      |          5 |       146 |             0.087 |        1758 |          1758 |         8790 |            0.104 |
|     87 | Ckyc              |          1 |       137 |             0.082 |        1712 |          1712 |         1712 |            0.058 |
|     88 | Juggernaut Santa  |          1 |       135 |             0.081 |        1698 |          1698 |         1698 |            0.039 |
|     89 | jackalo           |          3 |       129 |             0.077 |        1560 |          1560 |         4680 |            0.045 |
|     90 | Holy Bunny        |          2 |       127 |             0.076 |        1617 |          1616 |         3233 |            0.11  |
|     91 | ctaglack          |          3 |       127 |             0.076 |        1643 |          1543 |         4629 |            0.114 |
|     92 | gamagaeru         |          1 |       126 |             0.075 |        1689 |          1689 |         1689 |            0.046 |
|     93 | Sky Arc           |          4 |       126 |             0.075 |        1570 |          1552 |         6210 |            0.058 |
|     94 | 這是蘆葦           |          1 |       125 |             0.075 |        1728 |          1728 |         1728 |            0.104 |
|     95 | pontaqqq          |          5 |       121 |             0.072 |        1567 |          1572 |         7860 |            0.098 |
|     96 | ryuseii           |          4 |       121 |             0.072 |        1963 |          1792 |         7171 |            0.08  |
|     97 | lovegg            |         19 |       121 |             0.072 |        1586 |          1611 |        30612 |            0.044 |
|     98 | Asariborn         |          1 |       117 |             0.07  |        1698 |          1698 |         1698 |            0.019 |
|     99 | ariosty           |          3 |       116 |             0.069 |        1590 |          1590 |         4770 |            0.122 |
|    100 | safmy             |          4 |       111 |             0.066 |        1582 |          1546 |         6187 |            0.05  |

What to think about https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Monster_Lab section "Power Level's Effect On Gifts" ?

• It say "I removed the above section" but the history show only additions.
• The formula is stricken. Why not remove it if it's wrong? Why not removing the strike if it's right?
• It mix the term of "roll" (that could refer either to the final result (Gift Quality Roll) or just to the random number generation result) and PL (that should just be the monster level, but sometimes seems to be an equivalent to the final result (Gift Quality Roll) the way values are compared.
• It look a bit like that part could have been the sum of writings from several people, but all was added by a single person in a single edit, and there's no name or other confirmation of multiple identities involved.

It would be interesting if it was clarified somehow (either just the presentation, or an update based on current actual research, which is why I'm posting here)

2 years have passed, and this is how the monsters have changed:

The main thing that's interesting is how little things have changed in two years. I don't think I've even upgraded any of my most powerful mobs in the last few years and I somehow moved up one place.

The main thing that's interesting is how little things have changed in two years. I don't think I've even upgraded any of my most powerful mobs in the last few years and I somehow moved up one place.

Great summary, and I agree it's interesting and not what I would have expected.

For whatever reasons (could use some thoughts from HV economics experts) I guess monster PL creep somehow slowed down drastically, preventing the game from being ruined (in the eyes of a very few) or making dark/holy melee weapons more sucky (probably the reverse happened when the new SG arenas were introduced).

Still, monster PL creep did affect those things over the (prior) years. Maybe the upcoming HV game versions will have other things to counteract various effects of monster PL creep. Oh yeah, that PL creep also made Overpower way overpowered to the point that it contends for first or second-best 1H potency (which it should not, as Overpower is already by far the best potency for any other melee style) and now potencies will be gone. So yeah.

bump

This was missing in the research thread: data from sssss2, for which I'm very grateful.


Got 23.7 peerless vouchers.

CODE

Shrine Fortune (7/7)

    42.9 % [3] Legendary
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of Warding
    57.1 % [4] Magnificent

Festival Coupon (30/30)

    3.3 % [1] Peerless
    Peerless Zircon Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    6.7 % [2] Legendary
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Surtr
    90.0 % [27] Magnificent

Stocking Stuffers (6/6)

    100.0 % [6] Magnificent

Barrel (1/1)

    100.0 % [1] Magnificent

Annoying Gun (1/1)

    100.0 % [1] Magnificent

Vaccine Certificate (1/1)

    100.0 % [1] Magnificent

Noodly Appendage (1403/1403)

    0.1 % [2] Peerless
    Peerless Ruby Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    Peerless Radiant Phase Pants of Heimdall
    1.6 % [23] Legendary
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Charged Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Demon-fiend
    Legendary Onyx Phase Pants of Heimdall
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of the Demon-fiend
    Legendary Cobalt Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Frugal Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Charged Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Radiant Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Frugal Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    19.1 % [268] Magnificent
    79.1 % [1110] Exquisite

Unicorn Horn => Tier 5 (1322/1322)

    0.1 % [1] Legendary
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    4.6 % [61] Magnificent
    48.1 % [636] Exquisite
    47.2 % [624] Superior

Sapling => Tier 5 (632/632)

    0.2 % [1] Peerless
    Peerless Ruby Phase Pants of Freyr
    5.9 % [37] Magnificent
    49.8 % [315] Exquisite
    44.1 % [279] Superior

Black T-Shirt => Tier 5 (298/298)

    1.0 % [3] Legendary
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    5.4 % [16] Magnificent
    49.3 % [147] Exquisite
    44.3 % [132] Superior

Broken Glasses => Tier 5 (2268/2268)

    0.2 % [5] Legendary
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Demon-fiend
    Legendary Mystic Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    5.1 % [116] Magnificent
    46.6 % [1058] Exquisite
    48.0 % [1089] Superior

Hinamatsuri Doll => Tier 5 (2253/2253)

    0.4 % [10] Legendary
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Amber Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Heimdall
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Cobalt Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    Legendary Amber Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Radiant Phase Pants of Niflheim
    4.9 % [110] Magnificent
    49.0 % [1104] Exquisite
    45.7 % [1029] Superior

Bunny-Girl Costume => Tier 5 (2248/2248)

    0.7 % [15] Legendary
    Legendary Onyx Phase Pants of Surtr
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Amber Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Ruby Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Frugal Phase Pants of Niflheim
    4.5 % [102] Magnificent
    48.7 % [1094] Exquisite
    46.1 % [1037] Superior

Lock of Blue Hair => Tier 5 (530/530)

    0.6 % [3] Legendary
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of Protection
    5.1 % [27] Magnificent
    45.3 % [240] Exquisite
    49.1 % [260] Superior

Dalek Voicebox => Tier 5 (252/252)

    0.4 % [1] Legendary
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    4.4 % [11] Magnificent
    50.4 % [127] Exquisite
    44.8 % [113] Superior

Mithra's Flower => Tier 5 (241/241)

    0.8 % [2] Legendary
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    3.3 % [8] Magnificent
    45.2 % [109] Exquisite
    50.6 % [122] Superior

Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch => Tier 5 (244/244)

    3.7 % [9] Magnificent
    49.6 % [121] Exquisite
    46.7 % [114] Superior

ManBearPig Tail => Tier 5 (252/252)

    0.4 % [1] Legendary
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Warding
    5.6 % [14] Magnificent
    45.6 % [115] Exquisite
    48.4 % [122] Superior