[X] My Assistant

awesome work, lestion!

research

You are useful and smart (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

-snip-

(IMG:[i.imgur.com] https://i.imgur.com/9Z9342a.jpg)

This will be 10MC. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

This post has been edited by decondelite: Sep 1 2020, 20:22

I bow to all you, for doing such in depth research. Thank you, everyone of you, for your dedication and generosity sharing it all.

There is a wealth of knowledge embedded here, but I am not certain I can follow it all, even reading iit all (and I've only skimmed the last few pages.

I don't suppose that there is a summary or list of important implications? If not, could I offer someone some credits to write one up? I'm sure it's not sufficient to truly reward any of you for the effort and thought that has gone into this, but I would offer 100K for a clear and detailed write up of the implications, particularly for 1H style power.

Or is that insultingly low? I hope not.

I don't need to understand the research, so much as what the implications are. Maybe something that was structured into a list of short topics?

• The benefits ascribed to this common advice (x) is actually not supported by the research. The implication is this...
• The research tells us that x,y,z while counter-intuitive, is actually true. The implications are these...
• Haste changes the outcomes a,b,c ways in x,y,z circumstances/play styles/battle modes. The trade offs are these...
• Imperil and infusions have these effect, in these circumstances, for this percentage additional cost.
• Modify your play style these ways, on these days of the week, for this percentage extra cost/time/whatever, results in these increases/decreases in x,y,x.
• These are the most common things for which players optimize (speed of leveling, increased income/lowered cost, ease of play, other categories I haven't thought of, but that you may consider foundational knowledge) and the implications of all this in depth research for each is...
• Optimizing for a,b,c, follow these best practices, but these are the trade offs...
• The research tells us that the highest returns (on a, b, c) are gained by these optimizations, while these others have measurable, but lower benefits, and are only worth while under these circumstances.
• Never do x, except for these exceptions.

Or whatever the implications are, to be clear.

I respect you all, tremendously, and hope that asking like this (and my paltry 100K offer) does not offend. If 100K isn't a worthwhile offer for the effort to summarize, I completely understand.

Perhaps what I really want is to pay one of you dedicated researchers/experts, who understand all the details and implications, for a consultation, helping me optimize my play style.

But the offer stands if someone were willing/able to boil all this down into just the important implications. I wish I were rich, and could reward all the wonderful research.

Thank you!

I decided to take another stab at coming up with the formula to calculate PXP0 and the bazaar price of equipments using their individual stats. This has been tried before by various players and more clues are revealed each time.

Can people who own any of these weapons please check their bazaar sell prices?

Peerless Ethereal Rapier of Slaughter
Peerless Non-Ethereal Rapier of Slaughter
Peerless Ethereal Shortsword of Slaughter
Peerless Non-Ethereal Shortsword of Slaughter

All of those should have 377 PXP0. I want to know the bazaar sell prices for all four cases.

I would also be interested to know the bazaar sell prices for any of those with the Balance suffix instead. Note all of those should have 378 PXP0.

Minor test. I equipped a 1H wakizashi with Overpower 5 (+20% counter-parry) and tried playing through the first six arenas carefully, checking turn-by-turn if I ever got parried with 3~4 stacks of Overwhelming Strikes. I did get parried once with 3 stacks, but never with 4 stacks.

I played in such a way as to maximize the time I have 4 stacks (deathblow enemies to prevent reaching 5 stacks, and resetting with defend as soon as I did) and not hitting stunned enemies with 4 stacks. Although not absolutely definitive with this number of trials, the result suggests counter-parry stacks additively in all instances. So Overpower 5 plus Overwhelming Strikes 4 is probably indeed 100% counter-parry (as I have been assuming in the past).

Someone who writes custom scripts could probably verify this in grindfest or something.

Has anyone investigated the distribution of low/mid/high-grade materials?
I tried to calculate the distribution based on the assumptions:
1 Chance of Low-Grade is 100% at zero level, and linearly falls to 0% at 750 level.
2 Chance of High-Grade is 0% at level 500, and increases linearly to level 1500.
3 Chance of Mid-Grade = 100% - Chance of Low-Grade - Chance of High-Grade.

I have 76 monsters in the lab mostly 531 levels, according to calculations distribution should be approximately 29,2/67,7/3,1 Low/Mid/High.
According to my log it comes out 24,9/71,6/3,5
It seems to be about the same, even taking into account that I have several monsters above level 531.

Can I upload Excel files here? Uploaded to mega.
[mega.nz] https://mega.nz/file/EzAnlSaD#iAaRzh_Nco5JA...varsrQjhLm11cWw

I decided to take another stab at coming up with the formula to calculate PXP0 and the bazaar price of equipments using their individual stats. This has been tried before by various players and more clues are revealed each time.

Can people who own any of these weapons please check their bazaar sell prices?

Peerless Ethereal Rapier of Slaughter
Peerless Non-Ethereal Rapier of Slaughter
Peerless Ethereal Shortsword of Slaughter
Peerless Non-Ethereal Shortsword of Slaughter

All of those should have 377 PXP0. I want to know the bazaar sell prices for all four cases.

I would also be interested to know the bazaar sell prices for any of those with the Balance suffix instead. Note all of those should have 378 PXP0.

The bazaar sell price for the exactly same item varies also with his condition. To be comparables, you should specify that you want the bazaar price of a fully repaired item (i.e., condition 100%).

For instance, my Peerless Arctic Shortsword of Slaughter has a bazaar sell price of 4161 c @ 77% condition.

It would have a bit more if I repaired it, and a bit less if I let it go down to 50%.

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Nov 17 2020, 14:34

I knew about that, just didn't mention it. I think the bazaar price simply goes up linearly with the current condition (don't think if it's linear with maximum condition though).

How much exact condition does your shortsword have right now? Is it 290/377 or 291/377?

My guess is that after you repair it, the bazaar sell price will be around 5404 credits (don't know which way rounding will go) but we'll see I hope. :)

By the way, I forgot that soulfused/lottery equipment can't be sold to the bazaar (not sure) so I guess we can't check the sell prices using those.

This post has been edited by BlueWaterSplash: Nov 18 2020, 07:38

I should have posted these results before, but the laziness was stronger. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

As I did a lot of tests, I will divide it into three parts.

Part 1: Comparison between different "1H heavy sets".

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/XgDwtAZ.jpg)

Arena chosen: 150 rounds
Equipment forge: Rapier Slaughter, Shield and Slaughter Set (full forge); Balance, Protection, Warding and Shielding Sets (forge level 25)
Hath Perk: Dæmon Duality V (no other "game perk" more)
Supportive Spells in continuous use: Regen, Protection, Spirit Shield, Spark of Life, Heartseeker
Deprecating Spell in continuous use: Imperil
Shock Spike Shield
Use of Voidseeker Shard in the Shielding set, to increase the hit chance above 200%.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/mvBNVtM.jpg)

Although the statistics of the sets are not exactly from the same time I performed the tests, the numbers have not changed significantly.

The test dates, for the same set, are not continuous because in some cases I had to retake the test due to connection problems or inconsistent results (very different from the others).

Links of my equipment can be found in my signature.

[ 1 ] Balance Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/Ig7YOSa.jpg)

[ 2 ] Protection Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/hLyM0Cu.jpg)

[ 3 ] Warding Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/rpLQqZM.jpg)

[ 4 ] Slaughter Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/bYNc8kd.jpg)

[ 5 ] Shielding Set

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/AS5pObX.jpg)

Here, as you can see, I was too lazy to spend a whole week with this set. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) It's too slow. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/faint.gif) But even so, you can already have a good idea of how this set behaves. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

Simple conclusions:

The results of the Balance, Protection and Warding sets were very similar. And even considering that the Protection set is composed of 5 Peerless, and therefore presents the maximum numbers, the Balance set manages to be a little better due to the higher crit chance value, and the Warding set, as it consists of 5 Savage-type equipment (high crit damage), manages to get very close to the Protection set even with lower statistics.

In offensive terms, it is a little difficult to compare the Slaughter set with the others, due to the difference in the upgrade level (which is equivalent to something around 1300 ADB more if my set was forge level 25). But you can still see that the amount of ADB makes a lot of difference in the results (high damage/turn).

In defensive terms, of course nothing beats the Shielding set (a real walking fortress (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) ). But unfortunately it is too slow. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) The Balance and Slaughter sets have less defenses, but in the case of Slaughter this is compensated by the greater attack power (that is, you kill the enemy faster and thus suffer less attacks). But regardless, as my overall numbers are high, in none of the tests did I need to use Cure or Health Potions. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

If someone is having defensive problems, I suggest mixing equipment types (Power only), and substituting for Slaughter as your defenses improve. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In short, in terms of performance we have: Savage Slaughter > Slaughter >>> Savage Balance > Balance ≈ Savage Protection/Warding > Protection/Warding >>>>>> Shielding.

Tomorrow I'll post part 2 (if laziness not dominate me again (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) ).

This post has been edited by Basara Nekki: Nov 21 2020, 01:52

I knew about that, just didn't mention it. I think the bazaar price simply goes up linearly with the current condition (don't think if it's linear with maximum condition though).

I suppose so, but never bothered to check. If you want it's easy to check anyway.

How much exact condition does your shortsword have right now? Is it 290/377 or 291/377?

You're mixing up things. The condition is the number on the left in the weapon popup box, expressing how much it's damged and needs repairing; for my sword now is 611/800 (77%). I.e., the same number expressed in two formats, absolute and percentage. It will become 800/800 (100%) when repaired.

The xxx/377 you say is on the right, it is the Potency (PXP), and starts at 0 for unforged and un-IWed items ( 0/377 regardless of condition ). Each forging action or IW run will add some PXP points to it.

I know you know all this, but your post is a bit confused, speaking of condition but using numbers from Potency, which are unrelated.

My guess is that after you repair it, the bazaar sell price will be around 5404 credits (don't know which way rounding will go) but we'll see I hope. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, I've rrepaired it now to check it (I would have done it anyway later) and it is 5420.

By the way, I forgot that soulfused/lottery equipment can't be sold to the bazaar (not sure) so I guess we can't check the sell prices using those.

Wrong, all item can be sold to bazaar, doesn't matter if they are soulbound or untradeable. They just cannot be sold to other player.

I should have posted these results before, but the laziness was stronger. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

As I did a lot of tests, I will divide it into three parts.

Part 1: Comparison between different "1H heavy sets".

-- skip --

Interesting, but ... for some reason, the imgur links don't work in my browser and I cannot see the images (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Anyway, the conclusions are not a great revolution; it is more or less what we could expect I'd say.

I'm waiting eagerly for part 2, with an humble prayer; may you use another site to link the images please ? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Nov 18 2020, 03:34

Interesting, but ... for some reason, the imgur links don't work in my browser and I cannot see the images (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Anyway, the conclusions are not a great revolution; it is more or less what we could expect I'd say.

I'm waiting eagerly for part 2, with an humble prayer; may you use another site to link the images please ? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Weird. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) For me Imgur has always worked. I already had problems with other image sites.

Which browser do you use? I use Iron, and I also have Firefox. The images appear correctly on both. Did you try opening the links directly in another browser tab?

Regarding the conclusions, they were purposely obvious. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) In fact, I wanted to see in numbers if there would be any significant differences between the sets. In addition, the numbers show that there is not much difference between a Protection and a Warding, when it comes to the defensive part. And yet, over time, most players have always preferred to buy Protection (most valued) over Warding (cheaper). Well, that could serve as a reference for new players, who are still putting together their sets.

I'm guessing Balance would do quite a bit better in DwD without Imperil, and even more so if using Vital Strike because it will let you Vital Strike sooner. It's no surprise that Balance would be unimpressive if anything other than non-imperil rapier is used for comparisons.

my sword now is 611/800 (77%)

Well, I've repaired it now to check it (I would have done it anyway later) and it is 5420.

Oops yeah I got mixed up there, thanks for correcting me. Strange that 611/800 = 76.375% rounds up to 77% but I guess that is how it goes. Actually there are multiple other weirdness regarding condition as well. I think fractional condition exists, unseen and rounded, because some of my equipment always drops 1 condition sooner than others.

Anyway 4161 * 800/611 = 5448.12 which is hmm, still not quite close enough to 5420 for me...

Let's try 4161 * 800/612 = 5439.22 yes I am disturbed haha. Hopefully I can figure this out.

Let's try 4160 * 800/612 = 5437.91 this is still no good, normal rounding can't perfectly explain this.

Whereas 4161 * 100/77 = 5403.90 isn't exactly right either...need to wait until I think of an idea. Seems roughly linear at least.

I'm guessing Balance would do quite a bit better in DwD without Imperil, and even more so if using Vital Strike because it will let you Vital Strike sooner. It's no surprise that Balance would be unimpressive if anything other than non-imperil rapier is used for comparisons.
Oops yeah I got mixed up there, thanks for correcting me. Strange that 611/800 = 76.375% rounds up to 77% but I guess that is how it goes. Actually there are multiple other weirdness regarding condition as well. I think fractional condition exists, unseen and rounded, because some of my equipment always drops 1 condition sooner than others.

Anyway 4161 * 800/611 = 5448.12 which is hmm, still not quite close enough to 5420 for me...

Let's try 4161 * 800/612 = 5439.22 yes I am disturbed haha. Hopefully I can figure this out.

Let's try 4160 * 800/612 = 5437.91 this is still no good, normal rounding can't perfectly explain this.

Whereas 4161 * 100/77 = 5403.90 isn't exactly right either...need to wait until I think of an idea. Seems roughly linear at least.

The percentage value is to highest integer to make sure it reaches 100% and for display reason (field length), the internal value is fractional for sure since it is calculated from the two values 611/800 like you did.
A completely spent item would have 1 / 800 (1%) values. Zero values are most probably banned to avoid strange exceptions effect in a convoluted informatical environment (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

As for the function, even if the slope is linear, you forget that it's not a zero-crossing function. There is still a residual sell value when the condition is zero (actually, lowest possible condition is 1%).

But I'm not going to make my weapon reach 1% condition to tell you how much that residual value is, sorry (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

EDIT : just for example, and using completely made-up fake numbers to make it simple, suppose that the residual value @ 1% condition is 1460 C.

Then the value increment from 1% to 100% would be (5420 - 1460) = 3960 Now each 1% increment in condition would give (3960 / 99) = 40 C

Under this hyphotesis a 77% condition would give 1460 + (77 * 40) = 4540 C

You can do it in reverse (find the equation parameters from two point it's elementary), but for better accuracy it would be better to use a difference as high as possible between the values, i.e. the value @ 100% condition and the value @ 1% condition for the same item (using as second point the value @ 77% condition would give higher errors in the parameters estimation).

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Nov 18 2020, 15:19

Awesome analysis! Thus in addition to various rounding issues, we now have additional possibilities to look for to make the numbers match exactly. There might be a non-zero sell value as you said.

Also I was thinking and many of the "linear" relationships in this game are actually slightly curved (for example the effect of PABs on stats, the effect of burden, the effect of forging, you name it). The "linear" relationship between condition and bazaar sell cost could also be slightly curved.

So the best way now is to actually fight a weapon down to 1% and test it. I'll do it someday when I have a lot of free time. I guess it won't be too painful as long as your other equipment is good. I feel bad to use my soulfused rapier for it, so I'll have to use a junky legendary rapier. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Legendary Tempestuous Rapier of Slaughter

Found this in my inventory, I suspect I must have bought it at auction. Legendaries wear down faster. While wearing it down I might as well take data points at each condition value to check if truly perfectly linear.

There might be a non-zero sell value as you said.

It's no "might be". I'm sure there is, because I actually saw a couple of items @ 1% condition a couple of years ago.

I just don't know how much it is with respect to the full value. Nor I know if it's something like the same percentage for all items, or there are differences and what kind of.

Continuing...

Part 2: Comparison between Rapier and Shortsword.

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/eaMDi9u.jpg)

Arenas chosen: 80 and 150 rounds
Equipment forge: Rapier Slaughter, Shortsword Slaughter, Shield and Slaughter Set (full forge)
Hath Perk: Dæmon Duality V (no other "game perk" more)
Supportive Spells in continuous use: Regen, Protection, Spirit Shield, Spark of Life, Heartseeker
Deprecating Spell in continuous use: Imperil
Shock Spike Shield
Same IW: Butcher Lv.5 Fatality Lv.4

Although the statistics of the sets are not exactly from the same time I performed the tests, the numbers have not changed significantly.

The test dates are not continuous because in some cases I had to retake the test due to connection problems or inconsistent results (very different from the others).

Links of my equipment can be found in my signature.

[ 1 ] Arena 80 rounds: Legendary Hallowed Rapier of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/ARGQj4r.jpg)

[ 2 ] Arena 80 rounds: Peerless Shocking Shortsword of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/8YQaCfM.jpg)

[ 3 ] Arena 150 rounds: Legendary Hallowed Rapier of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/NLX1sfh.jpg)

[ 4 ] Arena 150 rounds: Peerless Shocking Shortsword of Slaughter

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/KDrT5Cw.jpg)

Simple conclusions:

From the results obtained, I think I can declare a technical draw. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) On average, the difference was minimal in both number of turns and time. Even though my Rapier is not a Peerless, I still consider him a "near-Peerless". So, I think I can consider that both Rapier and Shortsword are of almost the same level of quality. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

Thinking about the theory, which says that the Bleeding Wound is more efficient the greater the attack power, so I can simplistically deduce that, if I acquire more levels of Dæmon Duality, Shortsword would have some advantage over the Rapier. Well, if I ever get DD9 I will repeat these tests. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

However, it is worth remembering that a Shortsword is only effective if used with Imperil. So, just like for mages, I think using Shortsword is only feasible from level 310, when you get the last level of the Faster Imperil ability. In addition, it is necessary to have a high level of deprecating proficiency, or else to acquire the hath perk Evil Enchantress (and also use Aether Shard). Otherwise, if the application of Imperil is not at all efficient, I suggest using a Rapier. Oh, and if you’re too lazy to use Imperil every round, then your only option is a Rapier. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

The main advantage of a Shortsword is its low cost compared to a Rapier of the same level of quality (I only paid 700k on my Peerless Shortsword (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif) ; a Peerless Rapier would cost many millions (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) ). However, this difference in value has been decreasing over time (lots of supply and low demand; after all, most players switch to the mage style from a certain point).

My opinion: I do not recommend the use of Shortsword for low level players, who in general have little attack power and low deprecating proficiency. For this type of player a Rapier is more efficient because the Penetrated Armor can compensate for the lack of power and the inefficiency in the application of Imperil. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I will post part 3 tomorrow or later.

This post has been edited by Basara Nekki: Nov 21 2020, 01:54

It's no "might be". I'm sure there is, because I actually saw a couple of items @ 1% condition a couple of years ago.

I just don't know how much it is with respect to the full value. Nor I know if it's something like the same percentage for all items, or there are differences and what kind of.

I have an awesome axe at 1% condition. It would bazaar for 102 credits.

-- skip --

My opinion: I do not recommend the use of Shortsword for low level players, who in general have little attack power and low deprecating proficiency. For this type of player a Rapier is more efficient because the Penetrated Armor can compensate for the lack of power and the inefficiency in the application of Imperil. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I will post part 3 tomorrow or later.

I wish to add my opinion : for low level players (say < 200 to 250) Rapier cannot be very efficient, because they generally lack high-block shields. Without a significant block, and the rapier already low damage combined with the low level (medium to low item quality and low scale gain in everything from PABS to prof) ... probably DW + Leather with the highest damage/parry combo you can get (possibly with Slaughter Club to get the stun proc and Nimble off hand) is arguably easier and cheaper to get for them, and more efficient then 1H too. IMHO (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I have an awesome axe at 1% condition. It would bazaar for 102 credits.

You could sell it to BWS for his test, I'm sure he's willing to pay you 250 C for it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by mundomuñeca: Nov 19 2020, 16:32

Thanks for showing me the axe. I don't need to have it, just see it. Its condition should not be changed, as that would require equipping it and waste its level unassigned status.

The most important thing to know is that it is condition 1/203 (1%) and sells for 102 credits. For sure its full crude price is nowhere near 10200 ~ 20400 credits. There is definitely a base value, and someday I'd like to be able to calculate where that 102 came from.

As a wild guess, perhaps the base cost of every equipment is 100 (nice number) and that axe was worth 2 credits in that state? Well, I'll have more data when I get around to whittling down my own equipment.

-------

As for the rapier vs shortsword debate, looks like Basara's test is much more favoring of shortsword than before. His old tests favored rapier, now its equal. With higher deprecating proficiency and DD levels, he would probably reach (or even surpass) decondelite's tests which cautiously suggested that shortsword is better (rather he said they were the same if the adb is the same, roughly).