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 HV Research Thread, Let's find out how stuff really works |
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Feb 8 2020, 21:31
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sssss2
Group: Gold Star Club
Posts: 3,955
Joined: 11-April 14
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QUOTE(sssss2 @ Oct 25 2019, 02:28)  Monsters Statistics- 2,513 monsters / 167,318 times for 20 x PFUDOR grindfest CODE
==================================================================
PL | Count | Average | Encounter | Ratio | Accumulated
------------------------------------------------------------------
2250 | 46 | 479 | 22,049 | 13.18 % | 13.18 %
2150 | 2 | 479 | 957 | 0.57 % | 13.75 %
2100 | 3 | 459 | 1,378 | 0.82 % | 14.57 %
2050 | 1 | 410 | 410 | 0.25 % | 14.82 %
2000 | 2 | 401 | 802 | 0.48 % | 15.30 %
1950 | 5 | 361 | 1,806 | 1.08 % | 16.38 %
1900 | 1 | 309 | 309 | 0.18 % | 16.56 %
1850 | 4 | 302 | 1,209 | 0.72 % | 17.28 %
1800 | 89 | 232 | 20,685 | 12.36 % | 29.65 %
1750 | 5 | 261 | 1,304 | 0.78 % | 30.43 %
1700 | 29 | 162 | 4,699 | 2.81 % | 33.23 %
1650 | 221 | 129 | 28,558 | 17.07 % | 50.30 %
1600 | 156 | 100 | 15,675 | 9.37 % | 59.67 %
1550 | 323 | 70 | 22,611 | 13.51 % | 73.19 %
1500 | 564 | 50 | 28,480 | 17.02 % | 90.21 %
1450 | 327 | 24 | 8,010 | 4.79 % | 94.99 %
1400 | 301 | 16 | 4,939 | 2.95 % | 97.95 %
1350 | 117 | 11 | 1,329 | 0.79 % | 98.74 %
1300 | 291 | 4 | 1,152 | 0.69 % | 99.43 %
1250 | 6 | 1 | 6 | 0.00 % | 99.43 %
------------------------------------------------------------------
1200 | 5 | 59 | 295 | 0.18 % | 99.61 % # MONSTER DATA IS OUT OF DATE
1150 | 1 | 14 | 14 | 0.01 % | 99.62 % # MONSTER DATA IS OUT OF DATE
1100 | 1 | 112 | 112 | 0.07 % | 99.68 % # MONSTER DATA IS OUT OF DATE
1050 | 2 | 33 | 65 | 0.04 % | 99.72 % # MONSTER DATA IS OUT OF DATE
1000 | 2 | 61 | 121 | 0.07 % | 99.80 % # MONSTER DATA IS OUT OF DATE
950 | 1 | 100 | 100 | 0.06 % | 99.85 % # MONSTER DATA IS OUT OF DATE
900 | 4 | 52 | 209 | 0.12 % | 99.98 % # MONSTER DATA IS OUT OF DATE
------------------------------------------------------------------
0 | 4 | 9 | 34 | 0.02 % | 100.00 % # BOSS
==================================================================
================================================
Rank | Trainer | Count | Encounter
------------------------------------------------
1 | Nero-Arc | 200 | 16,332
2 | serorin | 127 | 14,135
3 | morineko | 182 | 13,296
4 | sssss2 | 200 | 12,230
5 | gc00018 | 97 | 11,336
6 | FreeloaderV | 101 | 9,213
7 | MidNightPass | 78 | 8,951
8 | RoadShoe | 200 | 6,409
9 | NerfThis | 200 | 6,384
10 | Koaen | 7 | 3,298
11 | danixxx | 17 | 2,953
12 | qdjseh001 | 66 | 2,874
13 | Mantra64 | 27 | 2,250
14 | Sushilicious | 116 | 1,980
15 | Hina Amano | 175 | 1,969
16 | DJNoni | 33 | 1,943
17 | Godde?? | 32 | 1,901
18 | Petal_Kiss | 7 | 1,744
19 | .@_@.@_@. | 49 | 1,663
20 | cylinnia | 28 | 1,490
21 | tempasdf | 14 | 1,428
22 | StonyCat | 4 | 1,423
23 | Honeycat | 5 | 1,345
24 | ddwiki | 4 | 1,255
25 | Kira.Yoshikage | 22 | 1,180
26 | lestion | 10 | 1,133
27 | Void Domain | 6 | 1,030
28 | sabregimp | 12 | 1,025
================================================
100 days after... - 2,672 monsters / 167,241 spawned for 20 x PFUDOR grindfest CODE
==================================================================
PL | Count | Average | Encounter | Ratio | Accumulated
------------------------------------------------------------------
2250 | 54 | 472 | 25,485 | 15.24 % | 15.24 %
2150 | 3 | 438 | 1,315 | 0.79 % | 16.02 %
2100 | 8 | 434 | 3,470 | 2.07 % | 18.10 %
2050 | 1 | 369 | 369 | 0.22 % | 18.32 %
2000 | 3 | 390 | 1,171 | 0.70 % | 19.02 %
1950 | 6 | 343 | 2,059 | 1.23 % | 20.25 %
1900 | 1 | 283 | 283 | 0.17 % | 20.42 %
1850 | 11 | 290 | 3,192 | 1.91 % | 22.33 %
1800 | 90 | 208 | 18,704 | 11.18 % | 33.51 %
1750 | 25 | 209 | 5,225 | 3.12 % | 36.64 %
1700 | 31 | 152 | 4,726 | 2.83 % | 39.46 %
1650 | 226 | 118 | 26,604 | 15.91 % | 55.37 %
1600 | 220 | 85 | 18,798 | 11.24 % | 66.61 %
1550 | 488 | 58 | 28,503 | 17.04 % | 83.65 %
1500 | 825 | 28 | 22,882 | 13.68 % | 97.34 %
1450 | 371 | 8 | 2,869 | 1.72 % | 99.05 %
1400 | 205 | 4 | 766 | 0.46 % | 99.51 %
1350 | 33 | 5 | 158 | 0.09 % | 99.60 %
1300 | 56 | 8 | 421 | 0.25 % | 99.86 %
1250 | 4 | 15 | 61 | 0.04 % | 99.89 %
1200 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 0.00 % | 99.89 %
1150 | 1 | 24 | 24 | 0.01 % | 99.91 %
1100 | 1 | 39 | 39 | 0.02 % | 99.93 %
1000 | 1 | 16 | 16 | 0.01 % | 99.94 %
900 | 1 | 67 | 67 | 0.04 % | 99.98 %
0 | 4 | 8 | 30 | 0.02 % | 100.00 %
==================================================================
- The number of pl 2250 monsters increased from 46 to 54. - The average pl of monsters increased from 1712 to 1753. CODE
================================================||======================================================
Rank | Trainer | Count | Encounter || Rank | | Trainer | Count | Encounter
------------------------------------------------||------------------------------------------------------
1 | Nero-Arc | 200 | 16,332 || 1 | - | Nero-Arc | 200 | 15,111
2 | serorin | 127 | 14,135 || 2 | ▲ 1 | morineko | 200 | 13,372
3 | morineko | 182 | 13,296 || 3 | ▽ 1 | serorin | 113 | 12,802
4 | sssss2 | 200 | 12,230 || 4 | ▲10 | Sushilicious | 153 | 11,147
5 | gc00018 | 97 | 11,336 || 5 | - | gc00018 | 96 | 10,059
6 | FreeloaderV | 101 | 9,213 || 6 | ▽ 2 | sssss2 | 200 | 9,659
7 | MidNightPass | 78 | 8,951 || 7 | - | MidNightPass | 87 | 7,871
8 | RoadShoe | 200 | 6,409 || 8 | ▲10 | Petal_Kiss | 200 | 7,853
9 | NerfThis | 200 | 6,384 || 9 | ▽ 3 | FreeloaderV | 101 | 7,759
10 | Koaen | 7 | 3,298 || 10 | ▽ 1 | NerfThis | 198 | 5,474
11 | danixxx | 17 | 2,953 || 11 | ▲10 | tempasdf | 20 | 4,096
12 | qdjseh001 | 66 | 2,874 || 12 | ▽ 4 | RoadShoe | 197 | 3,576
13 | Mantra64 | 27 | 2,250 || 13 | ▽ 3 | Koaen | 7 | 3,099
14 | Sushilicious | 116 | 1,980 || 14 | ▽ 3 | danixxx | 17 | 2,489
15 | Hina Amano | 175 | 1,969 || 15 | ▽ 3 | qdjseh001 | 67 | 2,094
16 | DJNoni | 33 | 1,943 || 16 | ▲10 | lestion | 18 | 2,037
17 | Godde?? | 32 | 1,901 || 17 | ▽ 4 | Mantra64 | 17 | 1,851
18 | Petal_Kiss | 7 | 1,744 || 18 | ▲24 | moanim | 27 | 1,839
19 | .@_@.@_@. | 49 | 1,663 || 19 | ▽ 3 | DJNoni | 34 | 1,592
20 | cylinnia | 28 | 1,490 || 20 | ▽ 1 | .@_@.@_@. | 19 | 1,518
21 | tempasdf | 14 | 1,428 || 21 | ▽ 4 | Godde?? | 45 | 1,444
22 | StonyCat | 4 | 1,423 || 22 | ▲ 1 | Honeycat | 5 | 1,342
23 | Honeycat | 5 | 1,345 || 23 | ▽ 1 | StonyCat | 4 | 1,322
24 | ddwiki | 4 | 1,255 || 24 | - | ddwiki | 4 | 1,141
25 | Kira.Yoshikage | 22 | 1,180 || 25 | ? | ???? | 7 | 1,069
26 | lestion | 10 | 1,133 || 26 | ▲ 1 | Void Domain | 4 | 1,018
27 | Void Domain | 6 | 1,030 || 27 | ▲ 6 | in memory | 30 | 1,016
28 | sabregimp | 12 | 1,025 || 28 | ▲ 1 | another planet | 2 | 1,006
================================================||======================================================
- Some players are training their monsters. - It is harder to meet my monsters than before. |
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Feb 10 2020, 21:21
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Noni
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 13,135
Joined: 19-February 16
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Does Godslayer give magic damage boost? Conclusion (preliminary): No, looks like it doesn'tHow this was tested - test at low difficulty, to see less effect of the 3% evade that godslayer brings - Hell 2 runs IW - Nintendo 3 runs IW - Comparing damage per turn, corrected for number of cures at Nintendo CODE
Hell - 81 round IW (avg 2 run s)
Godslayer Dohavin delta %
turns damage/turn turns damage/turn
335,5 327129 348,5 314586 + 4% for godslayer
Nintendo - 81 round IW (avg 3 runs)
Godslayer Dohavin delta %
turns damage damage/turn* turns damage damage/turn*
401 129362867 338349 385 128600593 348543 -3%, godslayer does less damage
*corrected for number of cures and health potions
This post has been edited by DJNoni: Feb 10 2020, 21:24 |
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Feb 26 2020, 18:19
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Ming28561
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 1,262
Joined: 7-July 17
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[attachmentid=138869] Grindefest within 5989t, 13 horses, as charged cold mage with DDXI on cold attribute day, no flower vase and bubble gem. (IMG:[ invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) I tied to full imperil on all monster, by using both down wheel and keyboadrs. I splitted my T3 from cast to better use it. I didn't use gem, draught, mp and later sp. I used hp, he before full cure and cure. My basic prof was 552.6, and it took me 3529 turns to get monster full imperilled. I think less than 30 turns could be optimized through my action and strategy. Under ideal conditions(full prof), a charged cold mage could possiblel reach 56XXt or even less. At the worst imp case I used 8 times to full imperil on 8 monster, 7 times on 7 monster. The full imp strategy had led to 138 full cures and 26 cures. --- I think I should full imperil all monster, I have tried to ingore some monster with poor(i.e 21, 28) cold migitation. But I finally found these monster might have too much magic migitate, involved by their tokens of chaos. ( I wonder know if imp could influence monster's CR ) I could recalled over 10 times 90% resists after I casted my Tier 3. (In old vesion of mb, it might be normal that your T3's icon showed prepared after use items, which results in 6 attacks form my data,) I was very close to fail this time as previous sereval tries. Only one health at a moment where both of my LE, HE ,HP, FC and cure were in cd. The only thing I could try is to cast my T3 on 9 imperilled monsters. Luckly, I was alive by evade 3 monsters attack. |
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Feb 26 2020, 21:26
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Nezu
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 3,931
Joined: 29-January 12
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QUOTE(Ming28561 @ Feb 26 2020, 16:19)
...
Did you mean to post the screenshot of your stats, or was it meant to be the end of battle monsterbation readout?? Impressive numbers. I was not expecting fests to be able to go that low. |
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Feb 29 2020, 01:25
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BlueWaterSplash
Group: Members
Posts: 3,307
Joined: 15-March 11
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Returning to the question we asked a month ago, I repeated my method of beating down School Girls, this time comparing the damages with Penetrated Armor 2 versus Imperil directly. CODE 1H level 383
overwhelming strikes and spirit stance
8569 attack, Friday
12074~17738 main attack 21538~32306 crit
6112~8944 void strike 6261~8198 crit
6019~8803 dark strike 6095~9029 crit
Penetrated Armor 2
21537~31137 main attack 38899~55771 crit
10898~15569 void strike 10379~14791 crit
10478~15717 dark strike 10609~15717 crit
Imperil
21278~30359 main attack 37692~53428 crit
10380~15569 void strike 10509~15439 crit
11133~15455 dark strike 10478~15717 crit A few more trials would make this data perfectly match but it's enough for our purposes. I believe this proves that Penetrated Armor 2 and Imperil reduce PMit by the exact same amount, consistent with my earlier damage tests. |
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Feb 29 2020, 01:48
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KitsuneAbby
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 7,571
Joined: 12-July 14
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Congratulations. You have managed to prove that 50% is equal to 50%. (IMG:[ invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) More importantly. I thought that Imperil was additive, and given the stats of a SG, that doesn't appear to be the case. How many attacks have you recorded? This post has been edited by decondelite: Feb 29 2020, 01:57 |
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Feb 29 2020, 03:52
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BlueWaterSplash
Group: Members
Posts: 3,307
Joined: 15-March 11
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I do these by going through one of the SG arenas manually, without hover. Depending on what data I'm going for, one arena would be enough. I did Arena 110 for this test and it wasn't quite enough to get perfect data. Most of the data has to be thrown out, because I only want to accept data with the correct amount of PA or Imperil. Each SG gets poked a few times then she gets too messed up and I kill her with Vital Strike.
However you don't need many hits if you study damages in this way, because the randomness is highly discrete: there are only 10~20 possible different random damage values. Luck eventually reveals the exact endpoints.
The proper way to do this is to reduce stamina first, because otherwise damages creep up due to proficiency increasing within the same arena. This is noticeable because it eventually increases the damages by 1, not the discretized amount. I don't actually do this though because my tests don't need to be ultra perfect in most cases.
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Feb 29 2020, 04:22
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Nezu
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 3,931
Joined: 29-January 12
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QUOTE(BlueWaterSplash @ Feb 29 2020, 01:52)
I do these by going through one of the SG arenas manually, without hover. Depending on what data I'm going for, one arena would be enough. I did Arena 110 for this test and it wasn't quite enough to get perfect data. Most of the data has to be thrown out, because I only want to accept data with the correct amount of PA or Imperil. Each SG gets poked a few times then she gets too messed up and I kill her with Vital Strike.
However you don't need many hits if you study damages in this way, because the randomness is highly discrete: there are only 10~20 possible different random damage values. Luck eventually reveals the exact endpoints.
The proper way to do this is to reduce stamina first, because otherwise damages creep up due to proficiency increasing within the same arena. This is noticeable because it eventually increases the damages by 1, not the discretized amount. I don't actually do this though because my tests don't need to be ultra perfect in most cases.
Did you remember to exclude Konata from these tests (she has different stats to the others)? Did you make sure you only took values from turns after applying PA2 (as the damage occurs before the debuff, on the turn it is applied on)? Why are there such significant differences in the top-end comparing PA to imperil? Not that I think any of these things are large enough to challenge the conclusion (that imperil is multiplicative, rather than additive) but I would like to ensure the test is as thorough as possible before making any edits to the wiki. (I think this was probably known at some point in the past and has just been misinterpreted when working on page updates!) This is notably odd in one fashion, though: imperil is observably additive for specific mitigations (as can be seen with simple scanning before and after). I wonder why pmit (and presumably mmit) are applied differently, despite the same wording in the spell description? This post has been edited by lestion: Feb 29 2020, 04:24 |
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Feb 29 2020, 04:53
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BlueWaterSplash
Group: Members
Posts: 3,307
Joined: 15-March 11
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I excluded Konata. I took values after applying PA2. I've been doing this style of test for the last couple years so I have the method decently refined. Those differences are just due to randomness; I didn't do quite enough samples to ensure luck rolled each endpoint.
Note that you can actually fuse the crit and non-crit data for void strike and dark strike; the damage ranges do become perfect that way, as there are enough samples.
I had remarked on those oddities of Imperil in the past as well, but that's how it is.
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Mar 6 2020, 12:36
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Noni
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 13,135
Joined: 19-February 16
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copied from sssss2: research on effect of DD on holy mage (also, nice insights into the effect of infusionn and of gum+vase ___________________________________________________________________________________________ DD's effect on PFUDORfest- Setup: holy mage (LHOH, 3 Radiant Phases, 2 Cottons) - Type A: Day Bonus (holy mitigation -10% on sunday) + Infusion + Bubble-Gum + Flower Vase - Type B: Day Bonus + Infusion - Type C: no Day Bonus + no Infusion CODE
Dæmon Duality || VII (+40%) || VIII (+45%) || IX (+50%) |
prof_factor || 0.946 | 0.996 ~ 0.998 || 1.0 || 1.0 |
Type || A | B | C || A | B | C || A | B | C |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn || 2370 | 5924 | 6166 || 2337 | 5736 | 6013 || 2333 | 5634 | 5896 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infusion of Divinity || 25 | 52 | || 24 | 50 | || 24 | 49 | |
Bubble-Gum || 25 | | || 24 | | || 24 | | |
Flower Vase || 25 | | || 24 | | || 24 | | |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paradise Lost || 431 | 1024 | 1075 || 426 | 993 | 1049 || 424 | 978 | 1030 |
Banishment || 647 | 1484 | 1558 || 636 | 1440 | 1520 || 634 | 1414 | 1488 |
Smite || 1054 | 1984 | 2057 || 1036 | 1946 | 2019 || 1032 | 1922 | 1989 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cure || 31 | 677 | 733 || 33 | 637 | 706 || 31 | 622 | 687 |
Full-Cure || | 116 | 128 || 1 | 108 | 122 || 2 | 101 | 117 |
Regen || 6 | 13 | 13 || 6 | 12 | 13 || 6 | 12 | 13 |
Arcane Focus || 2 | 5 | 5 || 2 | 5 | 5 || 2 | 4 | 5 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Draught || 25 | 36 | 36 || 24 | 36 | 36 || 24 | 35 | 35 |
Health Potion || | 48 | 52 || | 43 | 49 || | 42 | 48 |
Health Elixir || | 17 | 19 || | 15 | 17 || | 15 | 17 |
Mana Draught || 25 | 51 | 53 || 24 | 49 | 52 || 24 | 49 | 51 |
Mana Potion || 51 | 84 | 87 || 50 | 79 | 84 || 49 | 79 | 82 |
Mana Elixir || | | || | | || | | |
Spirit Draught || 7 | 34 | 38 || 7 | 35 | 38 || 8 | 34 | 37 |
Spirit Potion || | 37 | 41 || | 34 | 38 || | 33 | 36 |
Spirit Elixir || | 4 | 6 || | 4 | 5 || | 3 | 5 |
Last Elixir || | 1 | 2 || | 1 | 1 || | 1 | 2 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Gem || 1 | 51 | 52 || 1 | 51 | 52 || 1 | 49 | 51 |
Mana Gem || 1 | 49 | 53 || 1 | 51 | 53 || 2 | 48 | 53 |
Spirit Gem || | 54 | 51 || | 48 | 53 || 5 | 46 | 51 |
Mystic Gem || | 51 | 53 || 2 | 50 | 51 || 2 | 50 | 51 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scroll of Life || | 27 | 28 || | 25 | 27 || | 22 | 26 |
Scroll of the Avatar || 7 | 13 | 13 || 7 | 13 | 12 || 6 | 13 | 12 |
Scroll of the Gods || 7 | 13 | 13 || 7 | 13 | 12 || 6 | 13 | 12 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The worst equip now I am using is a radiant pants. If I use Peerless Radiant instead... CODE
| price | damage | detail
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PRPPH | (at least) 100m | +1.764% magic score | 32651/32085
DD8 | (40k Hath) 164m | +3.571% effective damage | 1.45x/1.4x
DD9 | (50k Hath) 205m | +3.448% effective damage | 1.5x/1.45x
DD8 and DD9 seems to be expensive, but it is better than Peerless Radiants as there is no bidwar. So, you guys should buy Hath, unlock DD series and let me buy Peerless Radiant Phase x of Heimdall cheap (IMG:[ invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Mar 6 2020, 13:13
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Nezu
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 3,931
Joined: 29-January 12
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would've liked to have seen one with no day bonus & infusion, or day bonus & no infusion - 50 turns spent on infusions looks like it could be barely a turn gain there, depending on how strong day bonus is by itself
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Mar 7 2020, 19:14
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Ming28561
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 1,262
Joined: 7-July 17
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QUOTE(DJNoni @ Mar 6 2020, 12:36) copied from sssss2: research on effect of DD on holy mage (also, nice insights into the effect of infusionn and of gum+vase ___________________________________________________________________________________________ DD's effect on PFUDORfest- Setup: holy mage (LHOH, 3 Radiant Phases, 2 Cottons) - Type A: Day Bonus (holy mitigation -10% on sunday) + Infusion + Bubble-Gum + Flower Vase CODE
Dæmon Duality || VII (+40%) || VIII (+45%) || IX (+50%) |
prof_factor || 0.946 | 0.996 ~ 0.998 || 1.0 || 1.0 |
Type || A | B | C || A | B | C || A | B | C |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn || 2370 | 5924 | 6166 || 2337 | 5736 | 6013 || 2333 | 5634 | 5896 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for sssss2's research. (There should not be cure in Type A test, which would occupy half set of Bubble-Gum + Flower Vase.) I think for elemential mage, the improve of DD would be more effective in Type A test but less obvious among Type B and C tests. This research coincide with my unserstand of elemential mage and holy mage. Holy mages would be more competitive among type B and C while less competitive in Type A tests. (My best Type A test record was 1966T as a lv453 40 forged Mystic cold mage with DD V. It happened on a Friday --- 5% bouns day 10 months ago, ) The data for Type B is awesome, I think sssss2 could easily finish Type B PFUDORfest within 5000 turns if he will. (The limit of cold mage might be around 5500 turns?) |
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Apr 8 2020, 11:32
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KitsuneAbby
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 7,571
Joined: 12-July 14
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I have benchmarked Dark spells to check their base "multiplicator": https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spell_DamageNow we do have solid (and wiki-tracked) proof that... dark just utterly sucks. Basically, the spells have a higher MP cost, for the same damage output than elemental. Except we also need more prof to reduce to 0% dark mitigation, which then implies we have less EDB available to deal the actual damage. The Excel sheet also includes further data that shows that Godslayer doesn't have any effect on magic damage, and that Imperil is a multiplicative layer, not additive. Long story short: why the fuck is dark still more expensive than elements? Only possible answer: because it's cool nonetheless. This post has been edited by decondelite: Apr 8 2020, 11:32 |
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Apr 8 2020, 17:51
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Noni
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 13,135
Joined: 19-February 16
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QUOTE(decondelite @ Apr 8 2020, 11:32) I have benchmarked Dark spells to check their base "multiplicator": https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spell_DamageNow we do have solid (and wiki-tracked) proof that... dark just utterly sucks. Basically, the spells have a higher MP cost, for the same damage output than elemental. Except we also need more prof to reduce to 0% dark mitigation, which then implies we have less EDB available to deal the actual damage. The Excel sheet also includes further data that shows that Godslayer doesn't have any effect on magic damage, and that Imperil is a multiplicative layer, not additive. Long story short: why the fuck is dark still more expensive than elements? Only possible answer: because it's cool nonetheless. so now those 'in memory of dark mages' monsters make sense, at least |
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Apr 8 2020, 22:11
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BlueWaterSplash
Group: Members
Posts: 3,307
Joined: 15-March 11
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I thought about this a little after reading what was said: I guess the amount of prof factor needed is sort of fuzzy. According to wiki advice, elemental mage needs between 0.7 ~ 0.79 (optimum to reach 0 elemental mitigation across all species) while dark does well at 0.8 (the optimum is still 1.0 to reach 0 elemental mitigation with imperil but there aren't nearly as many species that require it). If we can fuzzily take 0.79 and 0.8 to be the same, then I guess there is not much prof requirement difference. The magical spells themselves do equal or negligibly different damage as pointed out, especially considering the higher mana cost for dark/holy. I had sort of asked about this earlier here, but DJNoni explained that dark still does more raw damage than elements. I think(?) the "best staffs" for dark/holy are a bit better than the "best staffs" for elements: that can be the only source for it. I don't follow mage gear so I didn't know or expect that dark is higher priced than electric, wind, etc. If it is, I suppose the reason could be that it's still considered slightly higher damage with imperil, with the possibility to play non-imperil style. Even then, the higher mana cost might make it less attractive. If players could fight each other in 1v1 battles, probably dark mages would be the weakest, and holy mages the second weakest, all losing to elemental mages after a battle of mana attrition. Though all mages would be horribly decimated by melee warriors of any type. If players could fight each other in group battles, mages or certain types of area-of-effect melee (dual wield's frenzied blows, etc) could be useful though. |
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Apr 9 2020, 08:44
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Nezu
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 3,931
Joined: 29-January 12
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QUOTE(BlueWaterSplash @ Apr 8 2020, 21:11) I thought about this a little after reading what was said: I guess the amount of prof factor needed is sort of fuzzy. According to wiki advice, elemental mage needs between 0.7 ~ 0.79 (optimum to reach 0 elemental mitigation across all species) while dark does well at 0.8 (the optimum is still 1.0 to reach 0 elemental mitigation with imperil but there aren't nearly as many species that require it). If we can fuzzily take 0.79 and 0.8 to be the same, then I guess there is not much prof requirement difference. The magical spells themselves do equal or negligibly different damage as pointed out, especially considering the higher mana cost for dark/holy. I had sort of asked about this earlier here, but DJNoni explained that dark still does more raw damage than elements. I think(?) the "best staffs" for dark/holy are a bit better than the "best staffs" for elements: that can be the only source for it. I don't follow mage gear so I didn't know or expect that dark is higher priced than electric, wind, etc. If it is, I suppose the reason could be that it's still considered slightly higher damage with imperil, with the possibility to play non-imperil style. Even then, the higher mana cost might make it less attractive. If players could fight each other in 1v1 battles, probably dark mages would be the weakest, and holy mages the second weakest, all losing to elemental mages after a battle of mana attrition. Though all mages would be horribly decimated by melee warriors of any type. So 'need' is questionable but certainly counter-mitigation makes a huge difference. In fact 3+2 holy/dark are significantly better than 4+1 for average damage all the way up until somewhere around 590 base prof with peerless robe & staff rolls, where there's only 2-3 counter-mitigation difference between the two, despite the EDB gap. For mages, you must always consider that the speed is dictated by the single hardest monster in the round, and basically nothing else matters, because of the way mage damage is delivered in large areas of effect. This means it's usually worth expecting the worst case scenario - maxed out mitigation and full chaos tokens - almost reliably once per round. Dark and holy have slightly stronger T2 and T1 spells, while T3 is equal. Decon has correctly noted (on Discord) that 3+2 dark loses more damage to the EDB difference than is gained from these modifiers, however, 4+1 dark does actually end up doing slightly more damage than elemental builds. It just requires absurd proficiency and equipment to do so. Part of the reason for this is, as you noted, Demonic Willow of Destruction being exceptionally good & having very high base dark damage, roughly equivalent to a prefix. Comparing all peerlesses together, dark users gain about 6 EDB over elec/wind despite using robe instead of shoes as the prof slot, because of this. (Holy is harder to demonstrate because of the different suffix, but their average damage with HOH is actually higher than any other staff in the game even disregarding the holy debuff, albeit not by much.) However, if we're comparing imperil to imperil, fire and cold should still be using willow staffs for grindfest/IW (works out slightly better on turn counts due to reduced imperil resists). In this case, 3+2 dark is actually roughly comparable to fire/cold 4+1 (both ~386% EDB), except it has marginally higher dark counter-resist than they get with their respective elements due to the prof factor (for what little it's worth - counter-resist does not actually make a huge difference to average damage, at least compared to the community perception of it). Cold debuff IS very, very good though, and may add up to slightly more turns saved in a fest. You might be surprised about mage mana costs. They are not as high as you might think. |
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Apr 9 2020, 21:44
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BlueWaterSplash
Group: Members
Posts: 3,307
Joined: 15-March 11
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(IMG:[ i.imgur.com] http://i.imgur.com/tmLMFV5.png) I put this off for a while but I want to continue the elemental comparisons using my spreadsheet. I haven't changed it and this first table is just a repost because it turns out to be quite useful. (IMG:[ i.imgur.com] http://i.imgur.com/Tnh2f6x.png) You can alter the monster population as shown. Here I match sssss2 data, however it should be noted that monster population changes with time, and this was taken at a different time from Research for 1H, as well as his most recent elemental comparison. It turns out that despite a wildly unbalanced population, overall elemental performance needn't change much due to the complexity of the base table. Cold and Dark didn't change at all! Fire weakened by 2%, Electric improved by 3%, Wind and Holy improved by 1%. This matches sssss2 performance data at that time. In later time periods it appears that Cold improved by 5% but by now it could have reverted back. Although the species population could alter the elemental comparisons to be anything, my guess is that it's unlikely they will create alterations much greater than this. (IMG:[ i.imgur.com] http://i.imgur.com/SosM0hE.png) Here is the elemental comparison with spike shield using this altered monster population. But since the species population may not matter much, it's also okay to use the default equal population in my original post. (IMG:[ i.imgur.com] http://i.imgur.com/sZQVqUC.png) The most important change with time is monster PL; as it increases the four elements get increasingly worse than holy/dark, but with spike shields the four elements instead get increasingly better than holy/dark. Since the game artificially balances out PL when picking monsters I'd thought the average monster PL might be constant, or at least stop increasing at some point. But according to lestion it is still increasing significantly. Here I match the monster PL to be close to what we have today. |
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Apr 10 2020, 00:02
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Nezu
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 3,931
Joined: 29-January 12
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QUOTE(BlueWaterSplash @ Apr 9 2020, 20:44) ...
Noteworthy: dark/holy imperil are weaker than elemental imperils, devaluing those two types against regular monsters. This is important: modern melee players should be using imperil, at least by the mid-late 300s. It is an absolutely clear increase in speed. And if you're refusing to use it, why are you bothering to optimize at all? (IMG:[ invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) This post has been edited by lestion: Apr 10 2020, 00:02 |
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Apr 10 2020, 02:58
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BlueWaterSplash
Group: Members
Posts: 3,307
Joined: 15-March 11
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Furthermore, if Imperil styles are the best then consequently Hallowed/Demonic weapons are actually the worst, if you use such style. I plan to revisit this topic soon. Regarding absolute clear speed though, I don't think we've proved yet that Paradise style Holy/Dark/Cold 1H melee or Half-Imp 1H rapier isn't superior to full Imperil 1H melee. If Paradise style is fastest then Demonic is the best 1H weapon (Arctic might be equally good) whereas if Half-Imp 1H performs about the same as full Imperil then Arctic is probably the best 1H weapon (and I'm not sure how Demonic/Hallowed would compare to Fire/Electric/Wind). There are other debates to be had: sssss2 had the idea that school girls take the majority of a 1H player's time thus Hallowed/Demonic remain the best. I can't agree confidently with that assessment. If a 1H player uses a lot of Vital Strike or OFC, and/or Imperil then Holy/Dark don't improve school girls as much. This is even more true in other melee styles such as DW. There is a question of whether or not speed is of absolute importance. I'm still not convinced that using infusions is even worth it. I discussed the cost analysis with Sapo84 earlier. It further depends on a player's goal: if he just wants to clear all (or certain) arenas every day then it's arguably not worth it to use infusions despite the 3%~5% improvement to clear time. Because he will finish either way, the money saved may be worth it even if it was somewhat less valuable than the lost time (which is also debatable). A similar analysis could apply to using Imperil style if you have a rapier; mana draughts are cheap but the speed improvement is small as well. I don't know which way the cost analysis swings, and no matter which way it still may not be worth it using the above philosophy. Setting cost aside some players simply don't like the annoyance of Imperil style for a small increase in speed. However to such players I would recommend we look at Paradise and Half-Imp style more closely, because in my opinion the annoyance excuse isn't valid on those styles. Because you only need to cast Paradise Lost or Imperil once: it's really easy. Furthermore it does not matter if Imperil fails to stick, under the Half-Imp method's philosophy. This post has been edited by BlueWaterSplash: Apr 10 2020, 03:00 |
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Apr 13 2020, 00:29
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Nezu
Group: Catgirl Camarilla
Posts: 3,931
Joined: 29-January 12
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Following up on both my previous post and sssss2's monster data analysis, I have gathered new numbers. Again, 20 fests were recorded (to be consistent with sssss2's results). This is a historical analysis: CODE
24/10/19 - 2,513 unique monsters, 167,318 total appearances, 1712 avg plvl (sssss2 data)
23/12/19 - 2,631 unique monsters, 175,606 total appearances, 1739 avg plvl (my data)
08/02/20 - 2,672 unique monsters, 167,241 total appearances, 1753 avg plvl (sssss2 data)
12/04/20 - 2,686 unique monsters, 167,225 total appearances, 1781 avg plvl (this post)
The fluctuation in total appearances in my last data looks like I probably recorded an extra fest, which would only have affected a few total absolute numbers, as the rankings would still be proportionate. Anyway, here are some numbers. If the power level averages aren't clear, don't worry about it. The total number of unique monsters seen was 2686. I fought a total of 167,225 monsters. (This is "total appearances".) The average power level per appearance was 1781. (Total power level / appearances) The average power level per monster was 1581. (Total power level / unique monsters). 169 different players have monsters high level enough to show in max-level PFests. 4 monsters were unscanned (with less than 10 appearances total between them - these are not included in the data). There are a few outliers in the data when organised by different rankings (for example, rank 38 Hina Amano has a very high total power level of 202,830, which still ranks lower than rank 37 foobarwtf with a total power level of 4033). This table is organised by whose monsters you see most in a max-level PFest. CODE | Rank | Trainer | Monsters | Counted | Avg/Count | Avg/Monster | Total pLvl |
|--------|----------------------|------------|-----------|-------------|---------------|--------------|
| 1 | Nero-Arc | 200 | 14698 | 1663 | 1646 | 329374 |
| 2 | morineko | 200 | 13336 | 1705 | 1620 | 324118 |
| 3 | Sushilicious | 152 | 13165 | 1693 | 1665 | 253126 |
| 4 | serorin | 107 | 11975 | 1697 | 1687 | 180597 |
| 5 | FreeloaderV | 108 | 11805 | 1811 | 1725 | 186311 |
| 6 | sssss2 | 200 | 10214 | 1937 | 1556 | 311250 |
| 7 | gc00018 | 96 | 9178 | 1725 | 1667 | 160102 |
| 8 | Petal_Kiss | 200 | 7534 | 1827 | 1541 | 308379 |
| 9 | MidNightPass | 90 | 6883 | 1650 | 1612 | 145131 |
| 10 | NerfThis | 185 | 4844 | 1928 | 1491 | 275970 |
| 11 | tempasdf | 20 | 4363 | 1808 | 1796 | 35929 |
| 12 | Koaen | 7 | 3093 | 2215 | 2209 | 15469 |
| 13 | lestion | 25 | 2732 | 1868 | 1662 | 41556 |
| 14 | RoadShoe | 184 | 2506 | 1643 | 1473 | 271048 |
| 15 | moanim | 46 | 2303 | 1560 | 1560 | 71790 |
| 16 | danixxx | 16 | 2290 | 1722 | 1672 | 26762 |
| 17 | DJNoni | 34 | 1694 | 1546 | 1544 | 52516 |
| 18 | Mantra64 | 14 | 1613 | 1743 | 1645 | 23033 |
| 19 | .@_@.@_@. | 16 | 1567 | 1787 | 1601 | 25625 |
| 20 | qdjseh001 | 78 | 1537 | 1492 | 1490 | 116285 |
| 21 | StonyCat | 3 | 1305 | 2180 | 2161 | 6483 |
| 22 | Honeycat | 5 | 1264 | 2157 | 1862 | 9311 |
| 23 | Godde?? | 59 | 1164 | 1516 | 1508 | 89000 |
| 24 | ???? | 7 | 1126 | 1954 | 1716 | 12017 |
| 25 | ddwiki | 4 | 1078 | 1989 | 1872 | 7490 |
| 26 | threekoala | 24 | 1073 | 1701 | 1555 | 37328 |
| 27 | another planet | 2 | 980 | 2250 | 2250 | 4500 |
| 28 | in memory | 43 | 978 | 1508 | 1507 | 64842 |
| 29 | Void Domain | 4 | 933 | 2248 | 1804 | 7218 |
| 30 | 15112006 | 12 | 887 | 1580 | 1570 | 18843 |
| 31 | kzh125 | 5 | 886 | 1947 | 1680 | 8400 |
| 32 | kamio11 | 6 | 859 | 1948 | 1613 | 9681 |
| 33 | warachiasion | 3 | 845 | 1950 | 1899 | 5697 |
| 34 | KINOSHITAMIKOTO | 5 | 838 | 2009 | 1731 | 8658 |
| 35 | Ichy | 3 | 809 | 2039 | 1877 | 5632 |
| 36 | cylinnia | 38 | 701 | 1496 | 1491 | 56665 |
| 37 | foobarwtf | 2 | 698 | 2101 | 2016 | 4033 |
| 38 | Hina Amano | 140 | 675 | 1469 | 1448 | 202830 |
| 39 | jantch | 8 | 669 | 1664 | 1585 | 12684 |
| 40 | EsotericSatire | 2 | 654 | 2094 | 2014 | 4028 |
| 41 | HTTP/308 | 5 | 584 | 2161 | 1648 | 8240 |
| 42 | ashimoto | 4 | 578 | 1780 | 1680 | 6722 |
| 43 | arialinnoc | 6 | 545 | 2020 | 1601 | 9606 |
| 44 | treesloth | 6 | 541 | 1619 | 1611 | 9670 |
| 45 | tibus1979 | 1 | 521 | 2250 | 2250 | 2250 |
| 46 | atomicpuppy | 1 | 504 | 2250 | 2250 | 2250 |
| 47 | Ming28561 | 1 | 486 | 2250 | 2250 | 2250 |
| 48 | Dreamophobia | 1 | 484 | 2250 | 2250 | 2250 |
| 49 | SakiRaFubuKi | 1 | 482 | 2250 | 2250 | 2250 |
| 50 | mouisaac | 9 | 480 | 1555 | 1551 | 13965 | This post has been edited by lestion: Aug 5 2020, 23:43 |
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