[X] My Assistant

You've got it slightly wrong.

It's more like whether it's a rapier or a shortsword, playing without Imperil will deal shit damage anyway, and it'll be even worse when it's a shortsword instead of a rapier in that case. Stated that way, it doesn't sound exactly the same, isn't it?
But then, when using Imperil, the shortsword is way better than the rapier in SG arenas, both being rather equal on regular monsters, with a slight advantage for the shortsword for those who leave very little monsters not Imperil'ed.

Hence why I said that in the end, it all depends on your playstyle: do you want to play one-hand (with the other on the dong) and be very slow, do you want to slaughter SGs very fast, or do you want to just be fast in your regular gameplay with the help of Imperil?

... makes me wonder how much a peerless ethereal shortsword costs

... makes me wonder how much a peerless ethereal shortsword costs

The last times we've seen one in the auctions, one went in the hands of morineko for 40MC and another one in the hands of ssss2 for 21MC:
https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showtopic=225645
https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showtopic=232143

Though seriously, Ethereal is perfectly useless for a shortsword, aside from being able to choose the two elements at will with an IW9.

Formula to calculate the base power of bleeding wound:
Character's Attack Base Damage * Equipment DOT % * 0,44 * damage multipliers

Small correction to make... I was wrong about changing the modifier from 0.4 to 0.44 - the original 0.4 was correct.

... I just forgot about one more modifier we both had, on top of DD, Overwhelming Strikes and Heartseeker - the 10% from Godslayer. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Returned the wiki to normal on that count.

Some wiki additions today based on research. Some of these things were probably already known, but they were not noted anyway, so I'm recording my changes here for posterity and to discuss questions about how they were discovered.

- Unlike the other two debuffs, stuns cannot be refreshed or overwritten in any way. Even with a crit.
-- Easily observed - just try to hit a stunned monster with a club. Crits always apply weapon effects, but you will notice there is no line in the combat log to say the monster has been stunned, and the remaining duration is unaffected. You can also try using Shield Bash against stunned targets, the same will happen.
Credit: mega-wifeacc

- Penetrated Armor is applied after the damage is, for the turn on which it was applied.
-- First, I recorded a string of hits against a schoolgirl, recording the damage and the turns on which PA was applied (as well as any buff changes).
-- Then, I took the median of all hits at 3 stacks, and checked they fell within the 0.8x-1.2x random roll for damage. (This got me a pretty good confirmation that the random roll range is the same for physical damage - it was previously only noted for spells).
-- I calculated from my ADB what my average, minimum, and maximum damage values should be. The average was very close to my recorded median, backing up my data a little more and confirming I was using the right calculation for expected damage values.
--- The damage calculation also includes scaling the monster's pmit, which is why I used a schoolgirl (since their PAB values are known), by the way.
-- From this, I was able to calculate the minimum and maximum for how much damage a hit (or crit) should do against the schoolgirl, at each level of PA.
-- The first hit on which PA was applied fell within the range of the damage for 0 PA stacks, but outside the damage range for 1 PA stack. (The same applied to the turns on which stacks 2 and 3 were applied).

I was prepared to do a lot more data recording for that, but it turned out to be completely unnecessary, and confirmed the damage formula is still accurate. (I was scratching my head for a while though, til I remembered Godslayer's 10% - which is why I noticed my error with the Bleeding Wound formula...)

- The maximum duration for the bleed from Vital Strike is recorded at 9 turns on the wiki, but can sometimes be 10 turns.
-- The reason for this is a little complicated to explain if you don't understand the game time model.
-- Debuff durations tick down exactly on game ticks (ie, game time = 1, 2, 3 etc, whole numbers).
-- If you have exactly 0% attack speed, you will always see debuffs at their max duration minus one turn, because you reach a whole number during your turn (ie, your attacks will be exactly 1 step each time).
-- If you have higher attack speed (ie, your attacks might increment the counter by say, 0.66) but you pass over a whole number game time (0.66+0.66 = 1.32, passing 1) it will decrease the duration, too.
-- The only time you will see the full duration of a debuff is when your turn starts and ends without passing over a whole game tick. This means you can start at game-time x.00 and end at x.99 and see the full duration.
Credit: mega-wifeacc

regarding stun: back then, stun used to have ticks too, even if i don't really know what the effect of a 1x stun vs. a 3x stun is. at a point, this was changed. so whatever thing about refresh-ability of stun may either be intentional or a bug.

Probably intentional, to prevent any stun-lock cheesing.

Probably intentional, to prevent any stun-lock cheesing.

This would be my guess too, and probably also the origin of why monsters get a free attack when stuns expire

... makes me wonder how much a peerless ethereal shortsword costs

...just use an axe.

There's absolutely no reason to use a shortsword if you don't have issues surviving.

BW scales with ADB so, why use the virgin shortsword when you can use the chad axe (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

There's absolutely no reason to use a shortsword if you don't have issues surviving.

Oh yeah, I've forgotten that given how you play 1H, you don't deal damage with counterattacks. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

This post has been edited by decondelite: Jan 27 2020, 20:54

... did someone say axe?

https://hentaiverse.org/equip/97441313/3d0a3af603

https://hentaiverse.org/equip/142865443/de7cfe3213

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Jan 27 2020, 22:16

... did someone say axe?

https://hentaiverse.org/equip/97441313/3d0a3af603

https://hentaiverse.org/equip/142865443/de7cfe3213

The Cranny Axe (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) still funny after all that time

But seriously, there are no games that I've played, and I've played a lot of games, where an axe is a useful weapon. HV is no exception. Here, the lack of parry makes it suck quite hard.

yes, the Cranny Axe (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

i still have also the Cursed Club, btw.


and Axes on Rune were nice. the most useful weapon for the very last battle was the very first axe you earned in the first stages of the game (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

Some of these things were probably already known, but they were not noted anyway, so I'm recording my changes here for posterity

Penetrated Armor is applied after the damage is, for the turn on which it was applied.

Debuff durations tick down exactly on game ticks (ie, game time = 1, 2, 3 etc, whole numbers).

The only time you will see the full duration of a debuff is when your turn starts and ends without passing over a whole game tick.

I knew this about PA from the beginning. Also the SG beating tests you performed were similar to the many tests I did a couple years ago to study how Imperil stacks with PA, among other things.

I tested how attack speed affects debuff durations at the beginning of this same thread. This new explanation is good. It's simple and I believe explains the random variance in debuff duration when you have small amounts of attack speed.

It may also be that when you kill the last monster, the round immediately ends and the next one begins. So rounds don't start at 0 ticks, they might start at fractional tick. This is the inherent timing jitter I described previously which allows ailment durations to vary randomly (which is proper and a good thing).

I would call the full duration of a debuff what you see when you have 0 attack speed. Even if the visual counter reads 1 less, in effect you make use out of the full duration because your character generally gets to use the ailment again when the counter reads "0 turns remaining."

Bleeding wound is unaffected by physical mitigation.

8% of my base damage output per stack seems quite low, but actually it's certainly way more powerful than a rapier's Penetrated Armor against an Imperil'ed monster

Against a non-Imperiled monster, things are a bit more tough to compare. At best, a rapier can deal a stack of PA that reduces a monster's PMit from 80% to 60% to be counted for the next attack. In the meanwhile, a shortsword's Bleeding Wound will deal two/three dots of 8% each, amounting to an average total of 20% of an attack's unmitigated power. And then the rapier will have the upper hand on every subsequent hit.

Overall and contrarily to the popular belief, both weapons are rather balanced regarding their procs.

Good to know that bleeding wound is not affected by Pmit, in that case I assume Imperil doesn't change it either.

Let me try to double check your math comparison of PA and Bleeding Wound. I tested before that Imperil stacks multiplicatively with PA, so when Imperil is applied then PA provides half the improvement (if monster PMit is originally 80% then Imperiled PA will provide 10%). Perhaps you could argue this is still comparable to the 8% of Bleeding Wound.

There are other phenomena you may not have considered. For example crits nearly double damage: when a monster has PA inflicted and gets hit by a critical on the next attack, the PA effect doubles. But such wouldn't happen to BW.

Also I'm not sure that your character's overall Attack Base Damage is equal to the actual damage dealt, after mitigations. I recall that there is a huge random roll variance in the actual damage formula in this game. I'm not sure where the average falls in that range.

When you apply a stack of PA on an Imperiled 80%PMit monster, the PMit falls from 30% to 22.5%, which represents an increase in damage of about 7.5% of the initial, raw damage output. At that point, it's already Game Over for the rapier.
As for against SGs, they have 66.04%PMit at Lvl500 (I've written that in my Excel report), reduced to 16.04%PMit once Imperiled, so a PA stack is only worth 4%. A rapier will benefit from Vital Strike's full power and duration against SGs though, if one uses that skill.

I tested how attack speed affects debuff durations at the beginning of this same thread. This new explanation is good. It's simple and I believe explains the random variance in debuff duration when you have small amounts of attack speed.

It may also be that when you kill the last monster, the round immediately ends and the next one begins. So rounds don't start at 0 ticks, they might start at fractional tick. This is the inherent timing jitter I described previously which allows ailment durations to vary randomly (which is proper and a good thing).

This isn't so much research as rediscovery at this point, but I have a few sources for some time-related functions of the game I'll be updating the wiki with later.

This quote is from the change notes for the update that reworked action speed, it has not been noted to have changed since:

- Effect duration as well as heal- and damage-over-time ticks have been partially decoupled from the round counter, and now tick every 100 time units, independent of speed-affecting effects and actual action time.

From my own testing, I am quite confident new rounds start from 0 - however, there is some very slight imprecision with my numbers (to the tune of around 5 time units) so I will not post about this until I've discovered exactly what factor(s) I'm missing... I suspect it has something to do with rounding, but no approach I've attempted so far has fixed it.

This post has been edited by lestion: Jan 29 2020, 13:18

However you decide to formulate it, all I know is that when you have some amount of attack speed, the effective durations of all your status ailments becomes slightly random, such that your PA duration might be 7.01 turns instead of 7 turns. And that's a good thing because it helps attack speed do what it is supposed to.

When you apply a stack of PA on an Imperiled 80% PMit monster, the PMit falls from 30% 40% to 22.5% 30%, which represents an increase in damage of about 7.5% 10% of the initial, raw damage output.

It's not much of a difference but that's how I calculate it, not sure which is right.

Ah I see where the difference originates from. Are you sure Imperil reduces an original PMit of 80% down to 30%? I believe either Imperil or PA2 would reduce the PMit to 40%.

Imperil is an additive -50% PMit...
https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spells#Deprecating_Spells
https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Equipment_Procs

You have literally not read the wiki we've just updated, you know... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

This post has been edited by decondelite: Jan 29 2020, 22:07

In that case Imperil is better than I previously thought. However I went to check my old initial test data on this and (?)I feel it matches the "old" Imperil better(?) I may eventually try to test this particular question more directly sometime. Comparing void damage ranges for plain PA2 versus plain Imperil on a school girl would be best.

edit: After further thought I realized I made a logical error in my original analysis of my test data. So I think decondelite is right now.

edit2: I'm confused again. Let's step through this. At my lower level a school girl has about 60% Pmit instead of 66%. With Penetrated 3 that would be 15% Pmit remaining. With decondelite's way, PA3 + Imperil would be 2.5% Pmit remaining.

So by decondelite's way, every stack of PA increases damage by about 15% of the full unmitigated damage. Throwing on Imperil at the very end like I did in my test would increase damage by 12.5% almost the same.

Maybe I was right to begin with. I don't know. I should test at some point.

This post has been edited by BlueWaterSplash: Jan 30 2020, 10:19