[X] My Assistant

I'm actually going a rogue-ish build, but I'm having slight issues surviving because the only thing I can actually depend on is my evade, 1-2 hitting the creeps or cure. I'm not exactly sure if I'm doing it right, so I'd like to hear your opinion(s) on what I should change/do. I was also wondering what I should actually be training in.

Note: Soon to be replacing Silk boots with shades with = Evade or higher.




This post has been edited by Kish: Nov 27 2011, 03:56

I'm actually going a rogue-ish build, but I'm having slight issues surviving because the only thing I can actually depend on is my evade, 1-2 hitting the creeps or cure. I'm not exactly sure if I'm doing it right, so I'd like to hear your opinion(s) on what I should change/do. I was also wondering what I should actually be training in.

Note: Soon to be replacing Silk boots with shades with = Evade or higher.

1. You should try to be melee or mage. Battlecaster's difficult at your level.
Some supportive spells you should take
Poison (1), weaken (5), haste (5), shadow veil (5)
If you want to be a melee, fill up the exp tank, then start to fill the SP tank/overcharge. You can also pick protection.
If you want to be a mage, you don't need those 5 points which gives you elemental resistance, which is useless at your level.
pick up tier 2 spells (meteor, purge), and pick other tier 1 spells at your level. Prepare to change them to tier 2 spells once available, though you don't need to do so frequently (per 20-30 levels should be okay)

2. As for training...
Pick more levels of adept learner. Prepare to bring it up to around 120-140/300.
Pick more levels of ability boost, until around 40/100.
Pick 1 pick rat and refined aura before lv 100. You would need that.
As for trainings to increase drop chance, do so if you have spare credits after finishing those things above.

3. Primary attributes
Pick more endurance. Should be quite important for both melee and mages.
Also, you'll need more wisdom, because mp's very important in this game.
Once you picked melee or mage, people around should be able to tell you some better allocation of attributes.

4. Equipments
I will assume you want to be a melee.
The best weapon to use is mace or club, since they can stun your enemy, and you can deal 50% more damage when your enemy's stunned.
And don't use silk shoes. Wearing a whole set of light armor will give you benefits.
You can check that in the wiki.

Hope it can help you (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

im quite new to the hentaiverse im currently only lvl 31 ( mostly because i didnt have much time to play it but im gonna try to play it more now) as a mage what spells will be the most useful through level 30 - 100? also what will be the best things to train in?

also any tips to last longer in battle? i get through most fine i usually cast snowstorm to weed out a few of the monsters and then i finish the rest with magic missile. i find that i have to use cure alot ( once or twice every round) because of the amount of damage i take is this normal? or is there something im not doing right. oh and one last thing should i sell ,keep , or give my artifacts to the shrine?




edit: forgot to mention something. for a mage what use does spirit have? ( i know there are some soul spells but i assume those uses mana) i dont really melee things with my staff and magic missle doesnt give anything to overcharge so is there any actual use for the spirit points?

This post has been edited by Eternalone: Nov 27 2011, 14:37

Mages tend to have a really difficult time at low levels due to lack of spells and AP, unless you train AB like mad. Unfortunately, mages tend to be relatively easy targets for exactly the reason you mentioned; they just can't take hits. As a melee, I can't really offer any advice, unfortunately.

If you've got Artifacts, just offer them right away. You have no control over what you get anyway, and level doesn't matter. If you have Trophies, however, hold off on those until you're a higher level.

This post has been edited by DragonRanger: Nov 27 2011, 14:32

im quite new to the hentaiverse im currently only lvl 31 ( mostly because i didnt have much time to play it but im gonna try to play it more now) as a mage what spells will be the most useful through level 30 - 100? also what will be the best things to train in?

also any tips to last longer in battle? i get through most fine i usually cast snowstorm to weed out a few of the monsters and then i finish the rest with magic missile. i find that i have to use cure alot ( once or twice every round) because of the amount of damage i take is this normal? or is there something im not doing right. oh and one last thing should i sell ,keep , or give my artifacts to the shrine?


edit: forgot to mention something. for a mage what use does spirit have? ( i know there are some soul spells but i assume those uses mana) i dont really melee things with my staff and magic missle doesnt give anything to overcharge so is there any actual use for the spirit points?

Hm....first a melee, then a mage. Good.

1.Your character stat looks really good. I would suggest you to keep STR and DEX at a certain level (70-90% of your current level), but it's not that important.

2. At your level, you should first find some elementalist/fox clothes, which can increase your firepower.
A ebony staff of focus is also good, as it can increase your hit chance.
After you get arcana focus at lv.130, you can start finding some good destruction staffs and phase clothes.

3. As for abilities, pick those spells and their AOE, but don't take those which increase your elemental resistance. When you get to tier 2 spells, you can then use your ability reset to get those spells. (beware of overusing the reset though; I would suggest once every 20-30 levels)
HP tank is essential, and MP tank works better for mages. You may not need that EXP tanks now because you can get EXP bonus from training.

As for good spells...
Pick full weaken, haste, shadow veil. Should be enough till lv.100, where you will get spark of life.
Also pick 1 point in poison.

4. training
Adept learner: train until around 140/300
Ability boost: train until around 40/100
Pact rat and refined aura: you'll need one for each of them before lv.100
Those increasing your drop chance: train when you have spare credits

5. Aura:
Blue and violet should be good choices, but since you'll have enough aura points to fill 4 auras, you don't need to worry about that.

6. SP point
At your level it's useless, and it doesn't affect the offensive power of mages.
However, at lv. 190 you will find a spell called spirit shield, which will use your SP but is a very good defensive spells.

7. Tips to least longer
Hm...it's normal for mages to cast cure and regen, since mages are not defensively-oriented.
Try to use more area-of-effect (AOE) spells. Though you need to spend more mana on the spells, you'll spend less on cures.
Also, for beating up more monsters you'll have a chance to get more gems, which will greatly increase your survival chance.

Finally, check your mooglemail (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hm....first a melee, then a mage. Good.

1.Your character stat looks really good. I would suggest you to keep STR and DEX at a certain level (70-90% of your current level), but it's not that important.

2. At your level, you should first find some elementalist/fox clothes, which can increase your firepower.
A ebony staff of focus is also good, as it can increase your hit chance.
After you get arcana focus at lv.130, you can start finding some good destruction staffs and phase clothes.

3. As for abilities, pick those spells and their AOE, but don't take those which increase your elemental resistance. When you get to tier 2 spells, you can then use your ability reset to get those spells. (beware of overusing the reset though; I would suggest once every 20-30 levels)
HP tank is essential, and MP tank works better for mages. You may not need that EXP tanks now because you can get EXP bonus from training.

As for good spells...
Pick full weaken, haste, shadow veil. Should be enough till lv.100, where you will get spark of life.
Also pick 1 point in poison.

4. training
Adept learner: train until around 140/300
Ability boost: train until around 40/100
Pact rat and refined aura: you'll need one for each of them before lv.100
Those increasing your drop chance: train when you have spare credits

5. Aura:
Blue and violet should be good choices, but since you'll have enough aura points to fill 4 auras, you don't need to worry about that.

6. SP point
At your level it's useless, and it doesn't affect the offensive power of mages.
However, at lv. 190 you will find a spell called spirit shield, which will use your SP but is a very good defensive spells.

7. Tips to least longer
Hm...it's normal for mages to cast cure and regen, since mages are not defensively-oriented.
Try to use more area-of-effect (AOE) spells. Though you need to spend more mana on the spells, you'll spend less on cures.
Also, for beating up more monsters you'll have a chance to get more gems, which will greatly increase your survival chance.

Finally, check your mooglemail (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

thanks alot =D also ill be sure to follow the reset tip since iv already reset 2 times and noticed the price increases

edit: wow that stuff really helped out i used to have to stop at round 21 in grind fest now i can go up to 48 =D

This post has been edited by Eternalone: Nov 27 2011, 16:17

So, I've in truth played very, very little of this game, and quite a lot of my experience has accumulated simply because this character is several years old. My questions are as follow:

I think I like the two-handed skill for its domino-effect, but should I use a mace for the stun, or a long sword for the bleed? I just bought a mace for testing purposes.

Another thing that I'm rather uncertain of, is whether or not the mitigation of the heavy armor offsets the heavy penalty to my load, or if I should switch over to light armor?

Or is it folly to think that melee can win the day, leaving magic to be my next course of action?

I'm working on the bazaar trainer, but as I said, several years old character, and I used my credits for, hum, other things (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Also, should I just hit grind fest to gain credits and experience, both of which I feel I'm sorely lacking, or is there a better way? (I do the arena whenever possible). And if so, should I play on hell (the highest difficulty I am comfortable at), instead of hard, or does that eat into my stamina just as much?'

Questions, questions, I have many (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Any answer is appreciated, and I shall do some research on my own meanwhile as well.

Edit: Another question if I may, which protective spells should I use, and how does the auto-cast work? Not that the latter really matters, as I've yet to accrue a single hath point (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)



This post has been edited by Leoros: Nov 27 2011, 16:33

1. You should try to be melee or mage. Battlecaster's difficult at your level.
Some supportive spells you should take
Poison (1), weaken (5), haste (5), shadow veil (5)
If you want to be a melee, fill up the exp tank, then start to fill the SP tank/overcharge. You can also pick protection.
If you want to be a mage, you don't need those 5 points which gives you elemental resistance, which is useless at your level.
pick up tier 2 spells (meteor, purge), and pick other tier 1 spells at your level. Prepare to change them to tier 2 spells once available, though you don't need to do so frequently (per 20-30 levels should be okay)

2. As for training...
Pick more levels of adept learner. Prepare to bring it up to around 120-140/300.
Pick more levels of ability boost, until around 40/100.
Pick 1 pick rat and refined aura before lv 100. You would need that.
As for trainings to increase drop chance, do so if you have spare credits after finishing those things above.

3. Primary attributes
Pick more endurance. Should be quite important for both melee and mages.
Also, you'll need more wisdom, because mp's very important in this game.
Once you picked melee or mage, people around should be able to tell you some better allocation of attributes.

4. Equipments
I will assume you want to be a melee.
The best weapon to use is mace or club, since they can stun your enemy, and you can deal 50% more damage when your enemy's stunned.
And don't use silk shoes. Wearing a whole set of light armor will give you benefits.
You can check that in the wiki.

Hope it can help you (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I want to be melee, Dual Wield spec.

Few questions,
For abilities:
1) Should I bother putting points into Magic tank when I'm going melee?
Attributes:
1) Should I remove the points from my Int and put it into my End and Wis?
Equipment:
1) Should I use club with my rapier?
2) What should the club's suffix be?

Playstyle:
1) When should I use Weakened, Shadow Veil and Haste
2) Whats the 1 point in poison for?



QuickBar Slots



Thanks for helping me out =)

This post has been edited by Kish: Nov 27 2011, 22:09

Maces are two-handed, you can't dualwield them.

Fix'd thx.

@Leoros

I think I like the two-handed skill for its domino-effect, but should I use a mace for the stun, or a long sword for the bleed? I just bought a mace for testing purposes.

Mace is the way to go since it provides a damage advantage (+50% on stunned targets) as well as protection from incoming hits (stun). As Varst suggests in the few posts above, one of the greatest challenges for new/low level players is "landing" the hit (ie, accuracy) and unfortunately, maces are weak in that department. I'd suggest looking for a Mace of balance with 28%+ chance of stunning (3+ turns at your level if possible, 2 at least) along with 7%+ chance of critical hit (critical hits = guaranteed stun so they're important too!). Some players may suggest Mace of slaughter because the damage is just amazing. You can try that as well, see which you like better.

Another thing that I'm rather uncertain of, is whether or not the mitigation of the heavy armor offsets the heavy penalty to my load, or if I should switch over to light armor?

Heavy armor is a viable route. In fact there are even high levels that use heavy armor but it's a very rare strategy at high levels. If you plan on staying with heavy armor, I'd recommend looking for "of protection" plate gear or "of slaughter/protection" power gear (plate gear if you want more mitigation, power gear if you want some +damage).

Heavy armor is what I would say, the most "boring" play style because it places the most limitations on you via interference/burden. On the flip side, it's the most "simple". This is a good starting point if you want to learn the game since it's the least demanding in terms of actions and most secure in terms of survivability.

Or is it folly to think that melee can win the day, leaving magic to be my next course of action?

The population* is in favor of melees at low levels, split half half at mid levels, and in favor of mages at high levels (although I think a lot of those mid level melees are becoming high level now)

I'm working on the bazaar trainer, but as I said, several years old character, and I used my credits for, hum, other things (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Varst's advice for
"Adept learner: train until around 140/300
Ability boost: train until around 40/100
Pact rat and refined aura: you'll need one for each of them before lv.100
Those increasing your drop chance: train when you have spare credits"

Applies to almost any new player (regardless of their playing strategy) if they plan on leveling and progressing in this game so invest any extra credits into training if you're in it for the long haul (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also, should I just hit grind fest to gain credits and experience, both of which I feel I'm sorely lacking, or is there a better way? (I do the arena whenever possible). And if so, should I play on hell (the highest difficulty I am comfortable at), instead of hard, or does that eat into my stamina just as much?'

Easiest way to gain credits at your level is arena. In order to access more arenas you need to level. I would personally prioritize arena over grind fest because
a) it consumes less stamina than grind fest http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Stamina#Stamina_Usage
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) it has token bonuses upon completion sometimes (healing tokens are useful at your level)
c) it has arena clear drops that are usually better than if you were just grinding away

Difficulty does not affect your stamina consumption. Hence, the higher difficulty you fight - the more credits/exp you get for your stamina. But beware, the increase difficulty of mobs may lead you to spending more items than you normally would. Find a balance that suits you (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Another question if I may, which protective spells should I use, and how does the auto-cast work? Not that the latter really matters, as I've yet to accrue a single hath point (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I'd suggest protection at most. Most of your mana should be used for curing. Haste is too high cost and low duration for it to be viable with your heavy gear. This question is better answered by a heavy melee character (although I believe some heavy users opt for "scrolls of shielding/swiftness" since those aren't penalized by interference)

Auto-Cast slots http://ehwiki.org/wiki/HentaiVerse_Settings#Auto-cast_Slots
Basically it'll keep the support spell running from the get-go and consume mana from you *every turn* (turn upkeep = cost of spell if you were to cast/duration of spell if you were to cast)
Once your mana drops below 10%, it'll disappear. But it'll come back if your mana goes higher than a certain value (25% I think? I forget... I actually haven't gotten Innate Arcana myself yet but I remember it was within that ballpark)

If you're lucky those artifacts can drop you some nice hath

PS. You don't need all that much intelligence since you're a melee. I'd put it so that your intelligence exp cost is roughly one third that of your wisdom (if your WIS exp cost is ~2.1k, your INT exp cost is ~700)

Your auras look fine although if you get any more aura slots I'd recommend getting the +WIS

Your abilities look ok for now although personally I'd say HP/MP tanks are king. I'd prioritize them over almost anything else. They may not seem that good now, but once you start leveling up more you'll see just how amazing they are.

This post has been edited by dcherry: Nov 27 2011, 23:48

Yeah, I want to be melee, Dual Wield spec.

Few questions,
For abilities:
1) Should I bother putting points into Magic tank when I'm going melee?

Yes especially since you're light armor. More cure = more survivability

Attributes:
1) Should I remove the points from my Int and put it into my End and Wis?

Yes, like the ratio I mentioned to keeping the exp cost of WIS vs INT at a 3:1 ratio is good. Because WIS gives you about 0.75 mana while INT gives you 0.25 mana. Both are more or less there just for the +mana
http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Character_Stats#Primary_Attributes
Whether you pump END or WIS is up to you. I'd suggest looking in the https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showtopic=42717 attribute thread for ideas on stat importance - make sure it's a melee user first (they usually list their gear in their sig)

Equipment:
1) Should I use club with my rapier?

That depends what you want our of your weapons, club is the highest damage 1handed weapon I believe. But it was pretty high burden/interference if I remember right.

2) What should the club's suffix be?

You can choose between of balance/slaughter since you're using 2 weapons (rapier *might* provide enough +accuracy to cover for the club). Just make sure your attack accuracy is high enough where you're happy with how often you land a hit.

Playstyle:
1) When should I use Weakened, Shadow Veil and Haste

Weakened is for any monster that's hitting you hard (usually this means bosses/uncommons like manbearpig/manthra/mithra/canuck/mind raper etc)

Shadow Veil - "as often as possible"

Haste - Use it if monsters are consistently double tapping you, or if you're able to take 2 turns to their 1 while hasted. Use haste only if it provides you an advantage you can't experience normally while un-hasted. For example, I used to use haste a lot when I was low level because if often meant I had enough time to cure + attack the enemy. If I were un-hasted the cure often gave the monsters 1 round of attacks on me. Imo, that's makes haste worth it.

2) Whats the 1 point in poison for?

It's for vs Bosses like manbearpig etc (slows their SP/MP regeneration down) http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Poison#Deprecating_Magic

Thanks for helping me out =)

Double post bah. But I felt it was needed, otherwise you wouldn't have noticed I was replying to you as *well* as Leoros

This post has been edited by dcherry: Nov 27 2011, 22:30

I've been pondering swapping to light armor a bit now, and your post helped me make up my mind. So, I'll look for a decent set of shade as soon as I have the extra credit.

I'll also train my ability boost whenever I have any credits to spare, so that I can fill the mana tanks.

I'll reduce my int as well. I guess the loss in healing can be gained back by getting less interference as I switch to a lighter set of armor.

The mace I have is one of slaughter:

Fine Mace of Slaughter
Weapon Damage 212.55 Crushing
Attack Accuracy Bonus + 8.73 %
Attack Critical Bonus + 3.51 %
Burden + 20.30
Interference + 11.33
Primary Attribute Bonuses
Strength + 5.31 Dexterity + 0.62
26% Stunned for 3 turns

I have a 81.4% hit chance as it stands now. Should I swap that mace for one of balance?

Also, thanks for the in-depth answer. It helps a lot (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This question is better answered by a heavy melee character (although I believe some heavy users opt for "scrolls of shielding/swiftness" since those aren't penalized by interference)

I myself use haste, regen and spark(once i got it) i've never used scrolls. I'm not exactly high-end though. I don't cast them just to have them on either, i cast them when cure procs channeling so that they're free. Usually haste or regen first, or spark if i'm having a problem in a particular fight (lots of giants spawned with half their mp already filled, for example.) followed by the others if it procs again while they're still on.

Fortunately i'm not in range of all of those super-fast humanoid pets, so even in full power armor i'm still getting occasional additional turns without haste, with it i get an extra turn almost every turn.

I'll reduce my int as well. I guess the loss in healing can be gained back by getting less interference as I switch to a lighter set of armor.

INT does not affect healing spells.
http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spells#Curative_Magic

I've been pondering swapping to light armor a bit now, and your post helped me make up my mind. So, I'll look for a decent set of shade as soon as I have the extra credit.

I'll also train my ability boost whenever I have any credits to spare, so that I can fill the mana tanks.

I'll reduce my int as well. I guess the loss in healing can be gained back by getting less interference as I switch to a lighter set of armor.

The mace I have is one of slaughter:

Fine Mace of Slaughter
Weapon Damage 212.55 Crushing
Attack Accuracy Bonus + 8.73 %
Attack Critical Bonus + 3.51 %
Burden + 20.30
Interference + 11.33
Primary Attribute Bonuses
Strength + 5.31 Dexterity + 0.62
26% Stunned for 3 turns

I have a 81.4% hit chance as it stands now. Should I swap that mace for one of balance?

Also, thanks for the in-depth answer. It helps a lot (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Honestly I think it's ok for you to stick with heavy armor for now. Once you get to level ~100 or so you can make the decision of sticking with heavy armor or swapping to light armor. Key is to familiarize yourself with things like how dangerous the monsters are, what monsters should be targeted first, what monsters require you to heal against, where you should be targeting with your first mace hit, etc. I'm not saying you need to micro-manage everything (most players don't) but heavy armor is *the* armor for testing the waters.

Shade is nice but you lose a lot of tanking ability. Be aware that shade is a very "glass cannon" suit. Essentially increasing your damage out ability (+dex) and evasion/speed (+agi). Kevlar provides you much more protection but lacks the speed/damage benefits (it's essentially the "light armor" version of plate gear).

Yes the ability boost will help a lot during your early levels since you get so many new spells introduced so frequently. Once you reach level 200, you'll start getting more spare ability points to invest in previously ignored abilities.

The reason why I mentioned to you + Kish about dropping Int is because it doesn't actually affect cure
http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Spells#Curative_Magic

You can have 1 int or 100 int, the cure amount will be the same (assuming everything else is equal) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (damn ninja-ed by tiap)

If I recall correctly your hit chance starts at 80% so it's up to you. I'd personally keep an eye on ohmightycat's shop. He has a lot of cheap gear for beginners https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showtopic=37522

You might also want to try searching for "mace" in the WTS thread. If that fails you can make a WTB thread in the WTB section and specify what stats you're looking for.

Honestly I don't know which would be better for you since it's been a while from when I last played melee and there've been a lot of changes for melee (or so it seems to me, anyway). If you buy a few maces at ohmightycat's prices you'll be able to find what suits you best without denting your wallet by much (your arena first clear bonuses should cover your expenses pretty easily)

How does one distinguish the effects of Haste from that of Domino Strikes (using 2H equip as example)?

Will we be able to see it in the action reports? (example below)
9 10 Action Bastard is agitated!
9 9 Zombie Cow hits you for 32 slashing damage.
9 8 Bleeding Wound hits Action Bastard for 429 damage.
9 7 You evade the attack from Action Bastard.
9 6 Bainsha crits you for 155 slashing damage.
9 5 Bleeding Wound hits Manthra for 429 damage.
9 4 Manthra crits you for 95 slashing damage.
9 3 Manthra gains the effect Bleeding Wound.
9 2 You crit Manthra for 1136 slashing damage.
9 1 You hit Zombie Cow for 1046 slashing damage.
8 2 You hit Zombie Cow for 775 slashing damage.
8 1 You hit Bainsha for 1489 slashing damage.

How does one distinguish the effects of Haste from that of Domino Strikes (using 2H equip as example)?

Will we be able to see it in the action reports? (example below)
9 10 Action Bastard is agitated!
9 9 Zombie Cow hits you for 32 slashing damage.
9 8 Bleeding Wound hits Action Bastard for 429 damage.
9 7 You evade the attack from Action Bastard.
9 6 Bainsha crits you for 155 slashing damage.
9 5 Bleeding Wound hits Manthra for 429 damage.
9 4 Manthra crits you for 95 slashing damage.
9 3 Manthra gains the effect Bleeding Wound.
9 2 You crit Manthra for 1136 slashing damage.
9 1 You hit Zombie Cow for 1046 slashing damage.
8 2 You hit Zombie Cow for 775 slashing damage.
8 1 You hit Bainsha for 1489 slashing damage.

Other questions get answered when I'm asleep. Good.

You can distinguish them easily.
Domino strikes always happen in the same turn.
As from your battle log, you hit zombie cow with Domino strike at turn 8, and crit manthra with DS at turn 9.

Haste means you can act more than once before you receive counter-attack from target monster.
So you'll notice that you hit your target multiple times before they can react.
As from your battle log, you hit zomibe cow at both turn 8 and turn 9 before getting counter-attacked, as shown in 9-9.

(IMG:[serve.mysmiley.net] http://serve.mysmiley.net/sign/sign0092.gif) Ah, another mystery solved...(IMG:[yoursmiles.org] http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/think/m1715.gif)

(IMG:[serve.mysmiley.net] http://serve.mysmiley.net/sign/sign0011.gif)

I've switched to mage and I'd like to know how the different damage spells compare to each other. I know the higher rank spells cost more mana, but which ones are the most cost effective per damage?

Also, how do the better mages get mana back? Ether Theft is difficult to work with.