[X] My Assistant

I'd go for a good rapier, but at my level for getting one or i get incredibly lucky and drop one (highly improbable), or i go rob a bank for buying it (and even then it's difficult to find one) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Btw, i have already posted in wtb that i'm searching for one, we'll know in the future if i find it.

if you are a 1H wannabe, then a Shortsword may be fine too while you're at low difficulties. just to buy a bit of time yet starting to build 1H prof, you know...

if you are a 1H wannabe, then a Shortsword may be fine too while you're at low difficulties. just to buy a bit of time yet starting to build 1H prof, you know...

I've been a 1H user from the start, all my proficency is there, just never used a rapier because i haven't got one (like, the only good weapons i have are Clubs, so i used those all the time from the start (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

Edit: By the way, right now i'm using the Club you sold to me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by gianfrix94: Nov 8 2016, 02:37

nope. i never said that. if you read, in the same turn you had the first mob which earned a 50% Resist roll and the second one had a 0% Resist roll. twice. different rolls per different mobs, and by chance they happened to be both 50/0.
0/0/50/0/0 Resist rolls. not that big of a variety, but here we can see that even if the first spell gets 0% Resist, there can be subsequent different Resist rolls.
75/0/0/50 Resist rolls. 1 mob hit less because T1 spell, with less AOE. here we can see that even if the first mob has a Resist roll, it's not granted the following ones earn one themslves. but again, different Resist rolls.
50/50/0/50 Resist rolls.

No. No. No. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Repeating: you're assuming that if one of the targets of the spell resists the spell, all the others one will do the same, even if they get a 0% roll.
You're assuming that all the spell passes the resist chance only once, then the rolls are calculated on all the target, but only after the game decides if the monsters get to resist the whole pack or not.
It doesn't matter if you say "0% roll", you're assuming that all the monsters hit by the spell, resisted it, more or less.

And...what if the monsters that "got a 0% roll" in your opinion, didn't even get to roll the resist, because every monster gets the chance to resist independently from each other?


Repeating again: you're saying that if a spell hit monsters A, B, C, D and E, if one of these gets a resist roll, all the other monsters with unreduced damage MUST have got a 0% resist roll.

And that's still to prove.

-------------------------------------


Summarizing.

You say:
Casting spell -> will it be resisted? -> no -> nothing
Casting spell -> will it be resisted? -> yes -> roll on monster A -> roll on monster B -> roll on monster C -> roll on monster D -> roll on monster E

Only 2 chances, basically either no resist equal all the monster get hit full damage, or resist and monsters can get different rolls
And this doesn't take in consideration that each monster has a different resist chance.
With this hypotesis, once the roll says that you get a resist, all the monsters get the rolls. With the same chance.

I say:
Casting spell -> 5 targets -> A, B, C, D, E
Will A resist? no -> full damage on monster A
Will A resist? yes -> roll on monster A
Will B resist? no -> full damage on monster B
Will B resist? yes -> roll on monster B
Will C resist? no -> full damage on monster C
Will C resist? yes -> roll on monster C
Will D resist? no -> full damage on monster D
Will D resist? yes -> roll on monster D
Will E resist? no -> full damage on monster E
Will E resist? yes -> roll on monster E

32 different chances, each monster can resist the spell or not, each one with different chances of getting the rolls or not resisting at all



And this still hasn't anything to do with the thing we were talking about yesterday.

This post has been edited by ppp82p: Nov 8 2016, 02:51

i guess the right option is 1: 0% damage reduction (= full damage taken) is simply omitted.

This is how it is. If a spell isn't resisted, the 3 resist rolls having failed isn't displayed at all. It'd be like the battle log saying "MonsterX hits you for N damage after you fail to block and after you fail to evade and you fail to parry." That'd be silly, so of course that text is just left out. Same for resist base case.

No. No. No. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Repeating: you're assuming that if one of the targets of the spell resists the spell, all the others one will do the same, even if they get a 0% roll.

No, he's not assuming that, it kinda sounds like you're just trying to put words in his mouth to create an argument (no offense)

nope. i never said that.

...

For damage spells, it's pretty simple... given the player's proficiency, each monster rolls 3 chances to resist, based on the monster's stats (which is obviously separate for each monster). (That's why we see Celestials as very slightly more likely to resist overall.)

Which is what all 3 of us are saying:

different rolls per different mobs

This is a silly argument that doesn't even exist in the first place, everyone gets how it works, at least for damage spells.

I'm not sure what happens with non-damage spells like Imperil. Maybe each monster gets only 1 resist roll, determining whether the effect lands or it doesn't? That would make the most sense.

This post has been edited by Superlatanium: Nov 8 2016, 03:08

No, he's not assuming that, it kinda sounds like you're just trying to put words in his mouth to create an argument (no offense)

I would never try to create arguments, I hate arguments.
But no, the way he was explaining it, was like that: assuming that every monster that receive full damage is always a result of a 0% resist roll, and that is WRONG.
A monster receiving full damage could also have got NO RESIST AT ALL.
The result is the same, but in the first case you're not by force saying that a monster can get no resist rolls at all.
You're just excluding that possibility.
And that's what I was "arguing about"


You said that too, about the other part:

For damage spells, it's pretty simple... given the player's proficiency, each monster rolls 3 chances to resist, based on the monster's stats (which is obviously separate for each monster). (That's why we see Celestials as very slightly more likely to resist overall

Exactly what I was saying.

This post has been edited by ppp82p: Nov 8 2016, 03:14

If I didn't got right what you meant, then you got the whole premise of the argument wrong.

Yesterday we were discussing about how resist worked, and made two hypotesis:

1) the specific resist chance would matter on the rolls directly, so with 70% resist chance every of the 3 rolls has 70% chance to go well and 30% to go wrong

2 (scremaz theory) ) the rolls are 50/50 flipcoins, and after the rolls, the % of resisting applies, negating or confirming said rolls, so with 70% resist chance, you have 70% to apply 3 50/50 rolls and 30% to not apply them

In the second case, if the rolls are 50/50 and depend on resist chance to apply, assuming that a spell is decided to be resisted from the start, and then the rolls are made on each monster, is contradictory with that theory, since it would simply ignore the specific resist chances and get only one chance, before the rolls, and not as many as the monsters are.

This post has been edited by ppp82p: Nov 8 2016, 03:20

I've always assumed that the individual rolls had a chance of 1 - cube_root(1 - resist_chance) which would make the chance of one or more of the rolls being successful resist_chance.
Given TB love of complicated math I would be very surprised if this wasn't the case.

guys i need some help. i keep losing out on all the slaughter in auctions cause im too afraid someone is going to run up my proxy bid price and when it isn't high enough 1 person just bids till they find the end of my proxy and then wins it the day the auction ends.

anyways, i'm trying to explore WTS for some slaughter armor and i found one that has a good IW but i cant tell what the percent on the ADB is because it was forged. around what price should i be expecting to pay for these Slaughter gauntlets?

or should i just keep trying with the auctions?

This post has been edited by jackalo: Nov 8 2016, 07:21

guys i need some help. i keep losing out on all the slaughter in auctions cause im too afraid someone is going to run up my proxy bid price and when it isn't high enough 1 person just bids till they find the end of my proxy and then wins it the day the auction ends.

anyways, i'm trying to explore WTS for some slaughter armor and i found one that has a good IW but i cant tell what the percent on the ADB is because it was forged. around what price should i be expecting to pay for these Slaughter gauntlets?

or should i just keep trying with the auctions?

About 8% ADB before forge.
Maybe you can keep tracking auction till the end?Most auction end at a regular time.

This post has been edited by issary: Nov 8 2016, 07:28

About 8%ADB before forge.

eww, that's pretty garbage; definitely not worth the price tag currently on it. i know how to get % ADB before it is forged but how do you calculate it when it has been forged?

i usually work on saturday mornings :[

This post has been edited by jackalo: Nov 8 2016, 07:30

eww, that's pretty garbage; definitely not worth the price tag currently on it. i know how to get % ADB before it is forged but how do you calculate it when it has been forged?

i usually work on saturday mornings :[

There are script for it,and it can also be calculated using a formula.
Maybe you can ask someone to bid it for you?Better than current proxy system I think.

guys i need some help. i keep losing out on all the slaughter in auctions cause im too afraid someone is going to run up my proxy bid price and when it isn't high enough 1 person just bids till they find the end of my proxy and then wins it the day the auction ends.

I don't understand, if you're not proxy bidding you're max value you are doing it wrong and you don't need help, you just need to correctly use the tools you already have because the solution is already there.

oh, so much to answer here. well, first of all sorry for having been a bit dumb yesterday. it was a quite bad day. i hope today will be a bit better (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

No. No. No. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Repeating: you're assuming that if one of the targets of the spell resists the spell, all the others one will do the same, even if they get a 0% roll.
You're assuming that all the spell passes the resist chance only once, then the rolls are calculated on all the target, but only after the game decides if the monsters get to resist the whole pack or not.
It doesn't matter if you say "0% roll", you're assuming that all the monsters hit by the spell, resisted it, more or less.

And...what if the monsters that "got a 0% roll" in your opinion, didn't even get to roll the resist, because every monster gets the chance to resist independently from each other?
Repeating again: you're saying that if a spell hit monsters A, B, C, D and E, if one of these gets a resist roll, all the other monsters with unreduced damage MUST have got a 0% resist roll.

And that's still to prove.

yeah, yeah. it was clear enough at the first explanation, no need for the following two repeats. well, at this point how can one discern whether a spell is resisted or not?

This is how it is. If a spell isn't resisted, the 3 resist rolls having failed isn't displayed at all. It'd be like the battle log saying "MonsterX hits you for N damage after you fail to block and after you fail to evade and you fail to parry." That'd be silly, so of course that text is just left out. Same for resist base case.

thank you for your confirmation sir. at least i wasn't totally wrong. but what about doing the oposite (that is, starting from a full-damage spell to understand whether it was resisted at 0% or non-resisted at all)?

No, he's not assuming that, it kinda sounds like you're just trying to put words in his mouth to create an argument (no offense)

actually i was sir. dumb mistake of mine. well, 4 (or even 6) eyes are better than 2, right? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

For damage spells, it's pretty simple... given the player's proficiency, each monster rolls 3 chances to resist, based on the monster's stats (which is obviously separate for each monster). (That's why we see Celestials as very slightly more likely to resist overall.)

Which is what all 3 of us are saying:
This is a silly argument that doesn't even exist in the first place, everyone gets how it works, at least for damage spells.

I'm not sure what happens with non-damage spells like Imperil. Maybe each monster gets only 1 resist roll, determining whether the effect lands or it doesn't? That would make the most sense.

i guess so too. i mean, that 3-rolls thing should be only for offensive ones...

But no, the way he was explaining it, was like that: assuming that every monster that receive full damage is always a result of a 0% resist roll, and that is WRONG.
A monster receiving full damage could also have got NO RESIST AT ALL.
The result is the same, but in the first case you're not by force saying that a monster can get no resist rolls at all.
You're just excluding that possibility.

as above, my bad here. seems i considered it in formulas from two pages ago and then completely forgot about it.

Yesterday we were discussing about how resist worked, and made two hypotesis:

1) the specific resist chance would matter on the rolls directly, so with 70% resist chance every of the 3 rolls has 70% chance to go well and 30% to go wrong

2 (scremaz theory) ) the rolls are 50/50 flipcoins, and after the rolls, the % of resisting applies, negating or confirming said rolls, so with 70% resist chance, you have 70% to apply 3 50/50 rolls and 30% to not apply them

In the second case, if the rolls are 50/50 and depend on resist chance to apply, assuming that a spell is decided to be resisted from the start, and then the rolls are made on each monster, is contradictory with that theory, since it would simply ignore the specific resist chances and get only one chance, before the rolls, and not as many as the monsters are.

no, i'm getting really lost here. did i really say that flip-coin rolls are applied before Resist roll? yesterday i was actually quite dumb, but not cerebrally dead. can you please show where i did it? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)


either way, this is what we know about Resist. this is because basically i wanted to know how to consider Resist when calculating the number of incoming attacks and i think the mechanics aren't completely known yet. either this, or this whole discussion is meaningless and i should feel pretty ashamed:

1. when you get hit by a spell, there's a chance you Evade and/or Block it, depending on your playstyle and spells active
2. if not Evaded/Blocked, there's a chance you Resist it to deal with it. such Resist depends on your WIS PAB and the bonus from your armors. in particular, it's quite high for Light armors, medium for Cloth, zero for Heavy
3. if the spell isn't resisted, then it's normally dealt with MMI. if the spell is resisted, then 3 flip-coins-like rolls are made in order to calculate how much the damage from the spell is reduced, and then MMI is still applied
4. given that the maximum of those rolls leads to 90% reduction, Resist actually isn't (unlike its Parry counterpart) a negation stat, but only a reduction one - it's like another MMI-like roll was added on top of the actual MMI one. this operation has also a (12.5%, thus relatively small) chance to lead to 0% reduction and in this case it's simply omitted from the log for both mobs and player, but no harm in trying: in fact, there's a 87.5% chance that the resisted spell gets reduced by at least a 50% amount or if you read the post i just linked you can see that (but is the same thing) the resisted spell will gets reduced on average by a 58% amount. average weighted on 100 spells landed, btw - so it may have quite the low meaning
5. when considering different attacks towards different mobs or different attacks from different mobs, every attack has a specific Resist roll
6. like many other stats, Resist doesn't have an optimum point. rather, it's in your interest to have it as high as possible. but since it deals only with magical attacks and it's only a reduction one, Evade and/or Block still have a priority. someone may even want to gamble on MMI, since it's at least a granted roll

with this being said, it seems quite obvious that if i simply want to see how much does Resist save my ass when playing i cannot see it like Parry, but rather in a MMI-like fashion. even worse, because it's completely random. this still works because nowadays the vast amount of hits taken is physical, but in case this should vary one *may* want to throw in a Warding suffix piece too. and this also incidentally confirm the role of Negation Shade armors - way worse than Fleet/SD. just a few random considerations.

but the main question is still there: how to actually calculate Resist effect (within a reasonable statistical error, given its wide variability), if possible at all? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Can I get tips on raising my t/s....again?

Got another computer and braindumped everything since I went on hiatus for like half a year.

Did i really say that flip-coin rolls are applied before Resist roll? yesterday i was actually quite dumb, but not cerebrally dead. can you please show where i did it? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Making the three flipcoins, separated from the resist chance, and then multiplicating the two values, you get a calc that is the same in both ways (I'm from mobile so I'll write it in italian "proprietà commutativa della moltiplicazione" (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) )
So before and after is the same here.

Of course the resist before the rolls is right, but yesterday, as you said, you mixed up so you made me think the opposite.
But it's okay now (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In the end we still can't know how the rolls are made.
Unless we can distinguish the 0% rolls from the unresisted hits. If the first ones exist of course.


We really should make that test.
Unfortunately I've used my free personas already.

This post has been edited by ppp82p: Nov 8 2016, 13:23

Worth gambling trophys on the shrine? I've been saving up SG and Noodle trophys for like level 300, but since I want power armor and force shields, seems the chance of finding it is rare. The cost of buying those would also be high too though right? That's the part I don't know. What kind of gear selling those could get me (If at all)

WTB thread for trophies I found has prices at:

1250 Lock of Blue Hair
1750 other SG drops
40000 Noodles
20000 Precurser Artifact
5600 Sapling

I'd have a little under 300k with those prices right now.

Edit: By the way, right now i'm using the Club you sold to me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

oh, good. then go on with that until you can find a proper Rapier. Stun effect from the Club will be redundant with Stun from 1H style, but since you cannot earn 200 prof (= up to 3 counters-stuns per turn) yet, then it's fine anyways

I don't understand, if you're not proxy bidding you're max value you are doing it wrong and you don't need help, you just need to correctly use the tools you already have because the solution is already there.

no, it's a bit different. if i understood him correctly, he's a bit afraid of the fact that even if he put his maximum possible, someone may still overbid him by a tiny bit - which isn't that absurd of a chance, given the smaller minimum increment that latanium allows for proxy bids (with all respect for all the efforts he put in this system). since such little amounts are quite easy to reach at his level, i bet there's no other chance apart to check at the end of the auction if everything is going smoothly.

Of course the resist before the rolls is right, but yesterday, as you said, you mixed up so you made me think the opposite.
But it's okay now (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

hmm... let's call it barrier language and end it here then.

In the end we still can't know how the rolls are made.
Unless we can distinguish the 0% rolls from the unresisted hits. If the first ones exist of course.

hey, there's a limit to how bad of a person you can be - are you doubting even latanium's words now? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Worth gambling trophys on the shrine? I've been saving up SG and Noodle trophys for like level 300, but since I want power armor and force shields, seems the chance of finding it is rare. The cost of buying those would also be high too though right? That's the part I don't know. What kind of gear selling those could get me (If at all)

WTB thread for trophies I found has prices at:

1250 Lock of Blue Hair
1750 other SG drops
40000 Noodles
20000 Precurser Artifact
5600 Sapling

I'd have a little under 300k with those prices right now.

it's not unheard of people who claim to have earned nice things from trophies. but personally i think it's better to leave the gamble to someone else. 300k are still enough to find a decent shield, but odds of earning it from shrine are very scarce. letting apart power armors.
it *may* still be worth to gamble on artifacts if self-found though.

hmm... let's call it barrier language and end it here then.

Triple barrier language (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
I'm finding myself thinking in english very often, but when I write to someone italian in english my brain is like italian-english-italian-english to check if an italian would understand what I write in english (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

(if you're not english or italian, person who reads this post, I'll just write trying to do it with right grammar and syntax and stop, if you don't understand me well, I'm a bad person so I don't care (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) )

hey, there's a limit to how bad of a person you can be - are you doubting even latanium's words now? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Latanium just said that we were talking about the same thing.
Not that the rolls are proved to work fifty fifty after the resist or whatever number like 6576467 after jumping a purple cow and then dividing for a chicken with only one leg (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by ppp82p: Nov 8 2016, 13:59

Not that the rolls are proved to work fifty fifty after the resist or whatever number like 6576467 after jumping a purple cow and then dividing for a chicken with only one leg (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

you forgot to say you also have to jump a bridge for all its length with a leg tied behind your back, as we use to say here.

well, not exactly a bridge but i'm too lazy to check the english for "fosso" (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)