[X] My Assistant

If the bleed is stacked, there must be a limit of stacks. At max, you are talking about a few Ks of damage per turn.

Pretty much like that, yes. If I had a full crit-based gear set and a Scythe with 25%/30base/max crit chance I could eventually build up to 20k ticks while only hitting FSM for 500-1000 damage per hit, before my DoT somehow expires. But that is the point of my idea, right now we have One Weapon For Everything, the Mace class. Others simply do not exist, period. This version of Bleeder is still inferior to Mace if you're using it for IW or Grindfest/Crysfest farm where there are no bosses, but it would be literally a [Boss-slaying Stick of Slaughter] for deliberate purpose of slicing heavies in RoB.

Read all of it. Good post.

The idea for stacking/prolonging bleed damage is very interesting. I would really like to see something like this happening.

Edit: Btw, which mace are you using right now? The ethereal one from the auction?

The Fine Eth of the Ox one.

This post has been edited by MiAla: Sep 25 2011, 01:34

Pretty much like that, yes. If I had a full crit-based gear set and a Scythe with 25%/30base/max crit chance I could eventually build up to 20k ticks while only hitting FSM for 500-1000 damage per hit, before my DoT somehow expires. But that is the point of my idea, right now we have One Weapon For Everything, the Mace class. Others simply do not exist, period. This version of Bleeder is still inferior to Mace if you're using it for IW or Grindfest/Crysfest farm where there are no bosses, but it would be literally a [Boss-slaying Stick of Slaughter] for deliberate purpose of slicing heavies in RoB.
The Fine Eth of the Ox one.

There must be a balance to be adjusted how this bleed works with haste. What is your crit chance now?

This post has been edited by MidNightPass: Sep 25 2011, 01:37

There must be a balance to be adjusted how this bleed works with haste.

That indeed. Well, my idea is just a concept. Definitely, there must be some limit of stacks, for example x10 applies, after it will simply prolong the duration until the target or the player dies or the DoT expires eventually. Otherwise I can imagine FSM being Haste/Scroll of Haste'd up to 60-80k/tick in Shadowdancer Scythe set.
Not that even that is much higher than these blasted mages, though...

The Godslayers have spoken...many thanks for the heavenly advice.

I can only wonder when will I be able to reach lvl100? No Eth weapons to speak of (yet), just my trusty scythe & mace.

I mentioned awhile back that just moving the proc of the bleed to the start of a round instead of the end would go a long way to making it less 'dangerous' to use.

Stun seems to be applied at the start, and wear off at the end, giving it essentially an additional turn of stun then it says, as well as still "technically" allowing permastun as long as you can reapply it the very turn it wears off (tough to have reliably happen).

This makes stun good since it

A) stops the attacks from the enemy the turn it procs (it sticks before the monster gets to attack)

and

B) stops the attacks from the enemy even on it's final turn (it wears off after they would get their turn)


If bleed were to happen before the opposing monster's attack (at the start of the turn) when it will kill the monster, it would remove that monster's attack for that turn (probably agitated at this point, if the bleed alone will kill it) resulting in less damage taken.

It's not anything -great-, but it would cut down on a lot of the times monsters get hit with an attack, then get one last smack on you with their low-hp/agitation boosted damage, before the bleed finally comes along to finish them off at the very end of the turn.

This post has been edited by RajaNagaSoz: Sep 25 2011, 01:47

The Godslayers have spoken...many thanks for the heavenly advice.

I can only wonder when will I be able to reach lvl100? No Eth weapons to speak of (yet), just my trusty scythe & mace.

Did you notice how many lvl300+ mages are out there? Guess what? There's only one lvl300+ melee player, as far as I know. Go revert to lolgaymage while you still can, mortal one!
*Giggles*

Did you notice how many lvl300+ mages are out there? Guess what? There's only one lvl300+ melee player, as far as I know. Go revert to lolgaymage while you still can, mortal one!
*Giggles*

I'm pretty sure there's more than one.

You don't have to look far why bleed sucks. Among many reasons, there's 1 simple fact that made bleed sucks. ... It's the rarity of the gear. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

2H Bleed weapon

• More variables for bleed (chance, turn count, bleed damage) = Harder to get a good piece.
• All usable bleed weapon are rare drop.
- Long sword : Junk
- Scythe : Rare
- Katana : Rare + Meh stats

Other 2H weapon

- Estoc : Common
- Mace : Common

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)


Omake

1H Bleed weapon

• All of them have meh stats
• Bleed damage is a joke
• All usable 1H bleed weapon are... Wait, are there anything usable beside chucks?
- Axe : Almost junk
- Short sword : Junk
- Dagger : Junk
- Waki : Rare + Junk
- Sword chucks : Not even drop

This post has been edited by buktore: Sep 25 2011, 02:18

IMO onehanders should not be able to compete with 2H bleed-wise. There is a difference, you know, between fighting with 2 table knifes and Something Very Sharp And One And Half Meter Long. Wounds, everywhere.
Scythes are indeed rare. Katana weapon class is not a viable 2H weapon unless you're using Niten. Overall stats of Katana type are slightly lower than those of Scythe class.

This post has been edited by MiAla: Sep 25 2011, 02:21

To All GodSlayers

(IMG:[serve.mysmiley.net] http://serve.mysmiley.net/sign/sign0188.gif) [www.freesmileys.org] (IMG:[www.freesmileys.org] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-gen053.gif)

Scythes may be rare, but when you get good ones they're awesome.

I'd say an Ethereal Mace is overall more useful than an Ethereal Scythe(do they even exist? I've never seen one for sale, or (personally) even a request for one), but the Scythe would likely have a huge damage.

Currently, the highest damage I've seen (emphasis on I), is 1225.8 on a Scythe (which I own (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)). It's also got an alright bleed.

This post has been edited by Spartan0021: Sep 25 2011, 03:48

I bought a half crappy ethereal scythe about 2 weeks ago or something.

I bought a half crappy ethereal scythe about 2 weeks ago or something.

Well, it's certainly the first Ethereal Scythe I've seen.

Speaking of which, I don't think I've ever gotten any type of scythe/katana as a drop.

Thanks, guess I'll keep my APs in reserve for the more important spells coming up then.
Just curious though, when/at which level onwards do the damage boost become more significant?

Use up your APs, you'll get more.

Overall, overcharge is not worth it when you got better stuff to spend your AP on.
you only get 1/3 of your overcharge as bonus damage, so maxing out your overcharge on one tier will only give you 3.3% damage increase, when your overcharge is filled. Not very impressive.
Especially not since you have to spend 3 ability points into spirit tank in order to unlock the overcharge tank, which will then require 5 ability points to fill.
Is 8 ability points really worth that 3.3% damage bonus?

Considering that you could instead get +9% health, +9% mana and still have 2 ability points remaining, not really.

But you'll get more ability points eventually, from turning in artifacts and from spending some credits at the trainer.
And then, the tiers will stop coming every 10 levels, meaning you get more ability points per tier......

There are some of they really high-leveled folks out there who claim they have spare ablity points, because they have unlocked all tiers and have put points into every spell, tank and slot that there is on every tier......

Use up your APs, you'll get more.

Overall, overcharge is not worth it when you got better stuff to spend your AP on.
you only get 1/3 of your overcharge as bonus damage, so maxing out your overcharge on one tier will only give you 3.3% damage increase, when your overcharge is filled. Not very impressive.
Especially not since you have to spend 3 ability points into spirit tank in order to unlock the overcharge tank, which will then require 5 ability points to fill.
Is 8 ability points really worth that 3.3% damage bonus?

Considering that you could instead get +9% health, +9% mana and still have 2 ability points remaining, not really.

But you'll get more ability points eventually, from turning in artifacts and from spending some credits at the trainer.
And then, the tiers will stop coming every 10 levels, meaning you get more ability points per tier......

There are some of they really high-leveled folks out there who claim they have spare ablity points, because they have unlocked all tiers and have put points into every spell, tank and slot that there is on every tier......

Especially if you're a melee, you'll end up with excess points. I don't need ALL the debuffs (yet), or several buffs (such as absorb), which leaves me with what I want maxed (all hp/mp tanks, some debuffs, some buffs, scroll/infusion slots, X-abilities, etc.), and +40% overcharge.

It does. I'd not invest any AP in it until lvl120-150, though.
As for the melee styles...
As a melee-only player I can comment on current situation:
Maces: are FotM at the moment, even after nerf. The reason is simple, as a melee you can NOT lolfarm IWBTH arenas for awesome exp without a mace, period. There is no way to do this. No way. No, there isnt any. No, you cannot do that. No, it is impossible. You'll simply get wiped out within few turns, over and out. Even with Spirit Shield. Or, in case you'll be lucky, you'll burn an ENORMOUS amount of spirit and will be wiped out by a round or two. Lower difficulty enemies are going down very fast aswell. As for the lowbies - they're getting oneshotted without SS so they would definitely take mace over anything else (not to mention that they'd take mage over anything melee-ish IMO)
Estocs: I used an Eth estoc up to 0.6 patch and it was good. I was not able to compare myself to a mage but still I was pretty happy with it. Estocs used to provide us "static" damage as they completely bypassed enemies' shield rating. Now this reduction percentage is far not as good as it used to be so we cannot rely on estocs anymore if we want to kill stuff as fast as we want even at the cost of taking all the damage from non-stunned enemies.
Bleed-based weapons (scythe/katana/longsword): This is what I used since I found out about this game. I liked the unique concept of "true damage" of these bleed ticks very much. Unfortunately, right now a bleeder weapon is only viable for lvl1-100 characters, as the higher level characters will eventually get a hold on yet_another_awesome_mace.

Now, what could be done about these?
First, do NOT, EVER, start suggesting with the word "nerf". You just dont.
If, in any case, one of the game aspects becomes a niche for everyone other gaming aspects are to be buffed to be competible to the Favor Of The Month one. That is my opinion.
Second, we cannot compare mages and melees. These classes are just THAT much different from each other. The only way to "balance" them is to make another one be as easy as the former. And that is very, VERY hard to implement without breaking the game completely or "overbuffing" one of them.
(By the way, I'd suggest nerfing the Normal and Hard enemies damage by at least 1/2 and 1/3. Low levels suffer from oneshots indeed. It is just not right so that EVERY round with 6 enemies is a 50/50 chance of dying lottery for them. Low difficulty must be "slow and steady" in my opinion. If a lowbie wants to risk and level-up himself a bit faster and he goes for Heroic+, well, he HAS to be Heroic and he literally confirms that he takes the risk of being owned.)
So, what could be done with melee class weapons:
Maces: DEY R FIEN.
No, I am serious. I miss that +100% damage bonus, right, but this is just how it should be. Right now a good Eth mace allows the user to wipe out any challenge even on higher difficulty given that he has enough manapots. Compared to mages who wipe out masses with the first turn, it IS okay.
Estocs: 80% of mobs amplify more damage from Stunned (even the 50% version of it) than from Armor pen proc. And Estoc weapon does not actually prevent YOU from being hit. So, as we can see, estocs are pretty useless unless you're sure you're fighting an enemy with 80% melee mitigation so you need to cut it at least by half.
How can we fix/balance that? I guess the only way to make a good estoc to be on par with a good mace is to bring back the 100% Armor pen. Otherwise Estoc class will be still inferior to Mace. Given that most enemies have less than 50% mitigation, Estoc provides less than 33% damage bonus given the "best" case, and even lower damage bonus if the target is less armored, while mace slaps the enemy with constant 50%.
Bleed-based: The most interesting in my opinion.
Bleeders are the weapons with lowest strike damage. They have no damage amplification nor they have any resistance/mitigation piercing mechanics. Instead of that bleeder weapons give us flat True damage ticks. Which are low compared to other classes and which are based on ENEMY action speed, which is even worse.
What could be done?
Honestly, this seems to be illogical. I slice someone so they bleed. I slice them again so they... bleed for the same damage. Wrooooooooong~
First idea is to make these ticks based on OUR action speed. So if there is a Scythe in my hand and I am twice as fast as the enemy, he will suffer from two ticks. Duration will be lowered accordingly. This change might be a good START, as it is still bad for those who are SLOWER than enemies. Also I guess it would be very hard to implement code-wise. AND it would still be a very small DPS output and it will not get bleeders to be on par with maces.
Second idea is to make the bleeds stack. IMO this one is a must, its the only logical concept.
And then there are two ways to do so.
- The new bleed proc might stack with the previous once AND prolong it. So if I hit someone with my weapon and the enemy is now affected by my bleed ticking for 500 dmg for 5 turns, then I poke him again and the bleed procs again so the enemy would take 1000 damage ticks for 5 turns. The pros of this way: trash mobs would not be very much affected by this as they die too fast, while bosses and legendaries DO last long enough for this to take effect. Compared to current mace mechanics such re-worked bleeder will still be inferior up until 15-25 turns when the bleed will be stacked approximately five times. Yes, we still risk dropping the DoT if we're unlucky with proc or crit chances, but we dont want bleeders to be overbuffed, right? In this case a very lucky dude with a very good crit-wise gear (Shadowdancer/Power-Balance) and the maxed bleeder Scythe will be able to stack the DoT up to immense numbers on a target that Just Refuses To Die. Still the risk of DoT falling down...
- Or, the bleeder proc might stack with previous one but it would NOT prolong its duration. For example, I poked an enemy and now he's bleeding for 500 damage for 5 turns. Then I poke him again and now he's bleeding for 1000 damage for 4 turns and 500 damage a turn after that. So literally I offer something like Warrior "deep wounds" concept from WoW game, as it seems to be the most logical one. This one seems even more logical than the first one but there are two problems: this version of buff is still not very much. If you're not using a max-bleed Scythe weapon with awesome stats then you by far will not profit from this as much as you'd profit from the Mace. Also this would be pretty hard code-wise aswell.

Phew.
Comments, anyone?

Ok, so no talk of nerfs.

Let's try with another angle then.
Maces are good, no talk of nerfs, instead we buff the other.

For rapiers/estoc, this is my suggestion.
We remove the penetrated armor, and instead make rapiers/estocs penetrate physical mitigation, meaning they do 100% damage against mobs no matter their endurance (take that giants). The only thing that mitigates their damage is the piercing-specific mitigation (and giants lost their piercing mitigation, ha ha).
But let's not remove penetrated armor completely, instead we'll keep it and make it reduce ALL mitigations to zero, including damage specific mitigations like that for piercing.
Now, our rapiers/estocs will truly do 100% damage. But it will also benefit other things, like spells, since all mitigations are gone.
It will also be a big boost for DW, since having a rapier off-hand will do wonders for the main-hand damage, if you manage to get it to proc. And possibly make the club+rapier into a real nasty combo, with PA for 100% "true" damage and stun for +50% damage.
DW could really do with that buff, so that would be nice.

As for bleeding weapons, they suck. My solution is to think outside the box.
Remove bleed entirely.
Instead, replace it with another skill, that decreases the affected monsters attack damage. Call it "deep wounds" or "lacerations" or "cut muscles" or whatever. This will reduce incoming damage as well, and do it more reliably than stun, since it can be stacked (or rather, renewed).
Ideally, it would reduce all damage, not just physical, but also magical (think of cut fingers or something, hard to do the magical gestures when you are lacking the right amount of fingers with which to do them).
Now, "bleeding" weapons will be more defensive, and maybe more suitable to 1-H, since reduced damage combined with higher base absorb should work to make the damage reduction more effective than for someone in light armor.
And double or maybe even triple the duration, so a 1-H can spread it around, to make full use of it. And maybe even retain the current bleed damage, 1-H and DW that spreads it around can still snicker and see their targets take some bleeding damage to soften them up after their initial wild sweep to proc "bleed" to all the enemy mobs, while they concentrate on taking down the main target.

And maybe even fix 1-H a little more, so that the counter-strike now always procs a stun, but only for 1 turn, but instead has a double chance of also proccing the weapons "bleed", PA or stun (if a club, and then for the clubs full stun duration instead of 1 turn).

This will of course again shift maces/clubs into becoming more of an offensive weapon by contrast, since "bleeding" weapons will now be the best choice for decreasing incoming damage.

Especially if you're a melee, you'll end up with excess points. I don't need ALL the debuffs (yet), or several buffs (such as absorb), which leaves me with what I want maxed (all hp/mp tanks, some debuffs, some buffs, scroll/infusion slots, X-abilities, etc.), and +40% overcharge.

Also, once you get really high, you can still invest into spells just to unlock the magic specific mitigations.

But that's when you got a lot of spare AP.

Also, once you get really high, you can still invest into spells just to unlock the magic specific mitigations.

But that's when you got a lot of spare AP.

Yeah ha, I also forgot that I have an extra 5 AP left over...but I've also bought 26 ability boosts ha.

I suppose that makes a rather large difference in how many points I've got.

@ Randommember

- You can't have PA remove specific mit. It breaks the game in so many ways.

- PA use to increase magic damage as well. Tenb nerfed it sometime ago...

- I already suggested about reduced mobs damage when they bleed. Tenb doesn't seem to be interested.

....

Especially if you're a melee, you'll end up with excess points.

Melee character without maxed OC boost has no excess AP. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

@ Randommember

- You can't have PA remove specific mit. It breaks the game in so many ways.

- PA use to increase magic damage as well. Tenb nerfed it sometime ago...

- I already suggested about reduced mobs damage when they bleed. Tenb doesn't seem to be interested.

....
Melee character without maxed OC boost has no excess AP. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

From what I've been reading, I'm not even recommended to start getting OC boosts before level 120 or so, so I'd say I'm already well ahead of the curve (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) .

But yeah, I know what you mean. Everyone has been saying OC doesn't make much of a difference under 120, but I would say it makes a nice difference. And once my ability tiers start coming in the 20s, I'll have a LOT of extra points to throw into OC.

This post has been edited by Spartan0021: Sep 25 2011, 07:23