[X] My Assistant

Perk gives base value (we can see it in character window). Hp tank gives up to 100% of base value and jug also gives % of base value.

So lets say our base is 8k, hp tank is 100% (another 8k) and 25 jug gives 50%(4k), than final is 20k.

i c. ty. So jug works differently than the ability 'Hp tank' and that hath perk VV?

Yes. The 'HP Tank' have slots, but those are not divided effects (You only get the effect of the last slot that has AP). VV is one single perk, hence it's effect is not divided either. So both HP Tank and VV gives you full effect.

Many of the Stats in HV are multiplicative.
For example,
Suppose a certain Stat of yours is 40%. Now if you wear a armor piece that has +5% of that stat, your effective stat won't be 40%+5%=45%. Instead, it'll be something like 40%+4%=44%.
Now in this situation add one more armor piece that also has +5% of that stat, and the effective stat will now be 44%+3%=47%. (Mind that this is just a simple example. The multiplicative behavior of HV is more complex.)
These goes on an on. The more divided a effective stat is, the less benefit you get. Same goes for Jug. Since Jug-25 is divided into 5 armor pieces, we don't get the exact +50% HP increase.

I don't think this applies to juggernaut, +xp bonus, etc. I wish juggernaut were 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 ~= 1.61, but it really is just 50% (of base HP)

Have you forgotten that PF-GF is still very hectic for most mages? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Yes it is, but when the damage stats is > 95% physical and < 5% elemental, that's pretty insignificant isn't it?

CODE

[Received Damage] Average: 1541.66 / Crushing: 41.1% / Piercing: 38.69% / Slashing: 15.65% / Holy: 1.19% / Wind: 1.14% / Fire: 0.91% / Elec: 0.8% / Cold: 0.51%

In GF and IW, Holy is more prominent. In SG Arena, Dark is more prominent. In regular Arena, nothing is prominent. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Maybe that's the reason. nec's stats were in arena? Actually, we're at the level where arena damage simply isn't challenging.

This post has been edited by mozilla browser: Oct 12 2015, 14:52

I don't think this applies to +xp bonus.

Umm...I seem to vaguely remember Tenboro confirming EXP bonus being a mixture or Additive and Multiplicative (Some bonus are additive, while some are multiplicative). Can't remember where. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I wish juggernaut were 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 ~= 1.61, but it really is just 50% (of base HP)

Huh, since when did Jug become Additive? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Yes it is, but when the damage stats is > 95% physical and < 5% elemental, that's pretty insignificant isn't it?

CODE

[Received Damage] Average: 1541.66 / Crushing: 41.1% / Piercing: 38.69% / Slashing: 15.65% / Holy: 1.19% / Wind: 1.14% / Fire: 0.91% / Elec: 0.8% / Cold: 0.51%

So you're saying that Cap helps more in those situations than elemental mitigations? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Actually, we're at the level where arena damage simply isn't challenging.

Indeed. At Lv.400+, even 2H can beat all the Arena (Including the SG) in PFUDOR with ease, even with crappy set. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I don't think this applies to juggernaut, +xp bonus, etc. I wish juggernaut were 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 ~= 1.61, but it really is just 50% (of base HP)

Huh, since when did Jug become Additive? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

This is what confuses me, if it was multiplicative it would be 1.1^5 = 1.61, if it was additive it would be 10%+10%+10%+10%+10%=50%.

Huh, since when did Jug become Additive? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

It's been additive for as long as I can remember, I thought.

Maybe that's the reason. nec's stats were in arena?

As i remember it was start of fest (it should be 2/3+ of arena). Ive tested it once, but dont remember well... seems fest starts with 0,66 of arena damage and at the end its something like 4,33. Spawn pattern is same, so generally its similar. Thats why im not sure how mage can clear it, because if i have average at start 1,5k, than at the end it should be 6k+. Well, sure protection scroll reduce it in 1,5x times, but it ll be anyway 4k. So even with good defense (forge and so on) and offense (almost 0mp incoming attacks) im not sure how to clear without weaken. I d die even before full imperil cast and to do 1-2imperil-T3 doesnt looks very good too.

I think best way to find out if jug is really additive would be for some1 to equip 2-3 pieces of jug5 equip and check the vital Hp Boost % in the character stats page.

I think best way to find out if jug is really additive would be for some1 to equip 2-3 pieces of jug5 equip and check the vital Hp Boost % in the character stats page.

Which is indeed additive.

Which is indeed additive.

Another one of Tenboro's "ninja adjustment"?
Case it WAS multiplicative in the past.

Nah, its additive quite long time. Maybe because hp perk was +25% max hp?

Nah, its additive quite long time. Maybe because hp perk was +25% max hp?

*scratches head* may be. *scratches head again*

So.. jug25 = 50% hp boost? Since its additive?

curiosity kills me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

never put alot of effort to get jug5 since I don't really need that much (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

after readin through the Jug/SS discussion, Ive been wondering.. is Jug really that nice? the more HP you have the more damage you receive... at the moment my Shield starts triggering at 3550 damage and i only have 26% JUG yet and no VV.
doesnt that make me much more vulnerable to multiple enemy attacks at once? if they are all under 3550 its like a death sentence and Jug definetly didnt give me as much HP as the mobs damage is increased or am i wrong?

50% Base HP? Are you out of your mind? 50% on each armor would result in 250% extra Base HP. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Well I can wish, can't I? :laugh:

Max jug is 25% (total), if you get Jug-5 on each armor piece. And it's quite a huge benefit.

What's 5 pieces of armor with max Jug worth? 15 million credits if you can get the seller high as a satellite during negotiations?

after readin through the Jug/SS discussion, Ive been wondering.. is Jug really that nice? the more HP you have the more damage you receive... at the moment my Shield starts triggering at 3550 damage and i only have 26% JUG yet and no VV.
doesnt that make me much more vulnerable to multiple enemy attacks at once? if they are all under 3550 its like a death sentence and Jug definetly didnt give me as much HP as the mobs damage is increased or am i wrong?

More Jug also means significantly less spirit damage taken, which is useful. With Jug, your Regen gets more turns to replenish your HP before you're capped. And at least for me, I almost never take spirit damage anyway, except in GF or against schoolgirls - and monsters' attacks that don't hurt spirit just aren't dangerous enough to worry about.

When you take spirit damage, you take more HP damage, but you also heal the same proportion more with Fullcure. The benefits definitely outweigh the costs. But you can de-slot HP tank if you wish (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

What's 5 pieces of armor with max Jug worth? 15 million credits if you can get the seller high as a satellite during negotiations?

Depends on how much the equip is worth. If it's obsolete or just plain not that good, the equip could still be worth only 500k.

This post has been edited by Superlatanium: Oct 12 2015, 17:11

So.. jug25 = 50% hp boost? Since its additive?

curiosity kills me (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Just checked myself. Yep, it's 50% HP. Additive indeed. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

What's 5 pieces of armor with max Jug worth? 15 million credits if you can get the seller high as a satellite during negotiations?

It also depends on luck. I got Jug-20 (4 of my armors) for less than 100k (Amnesia cost), but the 5th piece alone cost me nearly 500k (Amnesia cost) for jug-5. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/faint.gif)

monsters' attacks that don't hurt spirit just aren't dangerous enough to worry about.

+1

For base damage, accuracy and cast speed, equipment_bonus is the sum of the values on the player's current equipment. For everything else, equipment_bonus is multiplicative, and follows the following formula: 1-(1-bonus_a)*(1-bonus_b)*(1-bonus_c)... where bonus_x is the equipment's bonus in percentage.

So Juggernaut is multiplicative, since it is a bonus coming from items. ?

Health Points = (50 + (Level * 10) + (END * 6)) * HP Tank * vigorous_vitality

Well, where to insert Jug? We do not want to mess around with VV or the Level or END, do we? It boosts HP Tank, so we need to find out how.

I have 23 Juggernauts on my gear, summing up as 3, 5, 5, 5, 5. The helm will be exchanged so no need for Jug5 yet. I have HP Tank ability 10 (100%). My HP Tank Bonus is decribed as 176.5%.
Multiplicative:
1.765 ~ (1 + (1 - (1 - 0.06) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1))) * (ability_tank + prof_tank)
1.765 ~ 1.38 * (1 + 407 * 0.075 / 100)
1.765 ~ 1.38 * 1.305 is equal to 1.805 dropping multiplictive
Additive equip, but multiplicative formula:
1.765 ~ (1 + 0.06 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1) * (1 + 407 * 0.075 / 100)
1.765 ~ 1.46 * 1.305 is equal to 1.905 dropping this, too
Pure sum:
1.765 ~ 1 + 0.46 + 0.305 = 1.765 !
So Juggernaut is additive to HP Tank and the VV Perk is not shown at the HP Tank but on HP.
The Wiki is once again PROVED wrong. Formula on HP has to be updated to state the addition of Jug and Prof_Tank to HP Tank.

So Juggernaut is multiplicative, since it is a bonus coming from items. ?

Well, where to insert Jug? We do not want to mess around with VV or the Level or END, do we? It boosts HP Tank, so we need to find out how.

I have 23 Juggernauts on my gear, summing up as 3, 5, 5, 5, 5. The helm will be exchanged so no need for Jug5 yet. I have HP Tank ability 10 (100%). My HP Tank Bonus is decribed as 176.5%.
Multiplicative:
1.765 ~ (1 + (1 - (1 - 0.06) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1) * (1 - 0.1))) * (ability_tank + prof_tank)
1.765 ~ 1.38 * (1 + 407 * 0.075 / 100)
1.765 ~ 1.38 * 1.305 is equal to 1.805 dropping multiplictive
Additive equip, but multiplicative formula:
1.765 ~ (1 + 0.06 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.1) * (1 + 407 * 0.075 / 100)
1.765 ~ 1.46 * 1.305 is equal to 1.905 dropping this, too
Pure sum:
1.765 ~ 1 + 0.46 + 0.305 = 1.765 !
So Juggernaut is additive to HP Tank and the VV Perk is not shown at the HP Tank but on HP.
The Wiki is once again PROVED wrong. Formula on HP has to be updated to state the addition of Jug and Prof_Tank to HP Tank.

what is VV?.__.