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Actually the more i count the worse eco becomes. Even for holy.

Sometimes it has big influence. Specially for long battles with very low prof and fast casting speed. But even here i count it for pot value and it has low price. Well, its probably a bit more complicated, because it also has some turns impact (more passive regeneration - less turns used for pots). But its still doesnt look even noticeable without detail checking.

Maybe even almost any "random" iw is ok. Mdb potency for edb staff isnt very good idea, but all other is ok.

This post has been edited by nec1986: Jul 16 2015, 01:19

15 Energy Drink per day (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
I only use a few Energy Drink for the arena exp (or waste according to you (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)) and then maybe do 0.5~1 GF

Nowadays I'm using 20+ EDs since leveling is much easier than before. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So why all the grindfest runs? Crystals? Or is there something I'm missing?
I'm assuming they're all on PFUDOR.

Simple. It's because there's nowhere to go when you cleared all the daily arena in HV. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
IW service is limited, for it needs a client.

Simple. It's because there's nowhere to go when you cleared all the daily arena in HV. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
IW service is limited, for it needs a client.

That's a lot of HV.


Question: Does the decreased drop rate for playing many rounds on a low difficulty affect the drop rate of all difficulties or just the one?

Does salvaging soul-fused items yield some soul frags? Has anyone tried this?

Does salvaging soul-fused items yield some soul frags? Has anyone tried this?

nope , I already had salvage 3 of my soulbind equipment (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Yeah, I am planning a major balance pass for 0.83 (that is, the patch after the upcoming one), and changes on mitigation versus HP will likely happen. Which isn't saying that monsters won't have mitigation, but it would be less, or be monster class dependent.

1. What does Tenb mean by "changes on mitigation versus HP"? Will a monster with high/low mitigation have less/more HP?
2. About "be monster class dependent", isn't it already the case in this patch? For example, Giant is weak against Wind, Arthropod is weak against Cold, etc.
3. Which class do you think is gonna be the best high-level mage killer if imperil is removed/nerfed? Celestial?

Actually the more i count the worse eco becomes. Even for holy.

Sometimes it has big influence. Specially for long battles with very low prof and fast casting speed. But even here i count it for pot value and it has low price. Well, its probably a bit more complicated, because it also has some turns impact (more passive regeneration - less turns used for pots). But its still doesnt look even noticeable without detail checking.

Maybe even almost any "random" iw is ok. Mdb potency for edb staff isnt very good idea, but all other is ok.

Thanks for the checks. I did some very very rough back of envelop calculations and I'm using ~ 1 MP/turn nett (inclusive the effects of passive battle regen) for 4 x IA. Imperil, Ragnarok, Disintegrate and Corruption use 40/87/56/38 MP respectively. Assuming I cast 4/2/2/2 per PFUDOR battle round, that would be 522 MPs used in 10 turns. With Mana Draught, I get 20 MP per tick, which is probably approximately 1.5 turns. So, I have nett usage of 388 MP per 10 turns or 1554 MP in 40 turns. Mana pot seems to restore about 1000 MP, so I'm 554 MP in the red.

At long as I regain that 554 MP through gems, riddlemaster, or tap, I should have enough MP to go on and not need to flee. Hopefully.

That's a lot of HV.
Question: Does the decreased drop rate for playing many rounds on a low difficulty affect the drop rate of all difficulties or just the one?

Not sure what you mean. It should only affect play at Normal, Hard and Nightmare. So if you intend to play rounds at a mix of difficulties, play your SG arenas earlier at Normal, then play the rest of the arenas at the highest difficulty you can.

Not sure what you mean. It should only affect play at Normal, Hard and Nightmare. So if you intend to play rounds at a mix of difficulties, play your SG arenas earlier at Normal, then play the rest of the arenas at the highest difficulty you can.

I think he may have been thinking of, for example - if you play Nightmare up to the cap, does that mean that Hard will also have the nerf in effect until it wears off?

Maybe even almost any "random" iw is ok. Mdb potency for edb staff isnt very good idea, but all other is ok.

There does exist an optimal set of IW potencies for any given character/battle series type. We just haven't yet figured out enough hard numbers to decide.

This post has been edited by Superlatanium: Jul 16 2015, 09:22

I think he may have been thinking of, for example - if you play Nightmare up to the cap, does that mean that Hard will also have the nerf in effect until it wears off?

Ah..

@Crush85, http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Loot_Drop_Rolls#Limits :

Playing a large number of rounds at lower difficulties in any battle mode reduces the drop rate from monsters for a period of time. This begins after 1,000 rounds and reaches maximum effect after 2,000 rounds. The reduction caps at 75% for Normal, 50% for Hard, and 25% for Nightmare. This applies to ALL drops besides Arena/Ring of Blood clear bonus drops. The round counter cools down at a rate of 1 per minute (out of combat only).

Seeing how other similar things work, I imagine that means
drop_reduction = max[0,(roundcounter-1000)/1000] * droprate_difficulty_cap,

where droprate_difficulty_cap = 75% (normal), 50% (hard), 25% (nightmare), 0% (other difficulties).

And loot_drop rate is multiplied by (1-drop_reduction).

I think he may have been thinking of, for example - if you play Nightmare up to the cap, does that mean that Hard will also have the nerf in effect until it wears off?There does exist an optimal set of IW potencies for any given character/battle series type. We just haven't yet figured out enough hard numbers to decide.

Isn't it For Melee:
Overpower>Swift Strike=Butcher>Fatality?
And for Mage:
Penetrator>Archmage>Economizer>*?

Isn't it For Melee:
Overpower>Swift Strike=Butcher>Fatality?

No. For 1h, which nearly everyone plays, Overpower is definitely nearly useless, and Swift Strike for style is only defensive (it does not help increase your clearing speed by anything notable). Only Fatality and Butcher are generally good.

For non-1h, Overpower is very good, you probably want to get it to level 4 or 5, especially at high levels (monsters are highly chaosed) and PFUDOR (parry bonus).

And for Mage:
Penetrator>Archmage>Economizer>*?

Depends on the situation, and we're still trying to figure it out.

But for someone who doesn't already have good and somewhat forged equipment and a high level (for proficiency), Economizer 5 should be the first priority, if one doesn't have a Focus staff. Otherwise, mana consumption will often be too much.

Penetrator is good in general, and Archmage is good with Destruction staffs, especially forged ones.




If you got your info from the wiki, tell me where so I can fix it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

If you got your info from the wiki, tell me where so I can fix it (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Perhaps it'd be good to add some comments on the relative usefulness of each potency to the Item_World page?

I did some very very rough back of envelop calculations

Actually its probably lower.
Some mobs is weaker, so you can finish it with lower price. Maybe cure returns it back, because its also quite mana expensive. But the main idea is coalesced (its probably near 35% average price reduction with simple attack way) and some bonus from channeling and passive regeneration.

One additional way is use 4+1. Its not very bad idea, because imperil reduce only 25 mitg. Many monsters has 45+ and its very big difference. We quite often face someone like that, so its good damage increase in this situation, plus additional counter-resist. Its not so hard to increase to 0,6-0,7 prof factor with 1 cotton and it gives up to 29 mitg reduction. Quite good bonus against 50-75 mitg mobs. Or maybe even must have, because 1 phase gives not very big damage increase.

UPD. coalesced effect has wide range, but for example with imperil in simple condition:
Other monsters quite often has debuff, so we mostly need count only first mob, because we hit him. And if he tanky than we get this situation in imperil-T3-T2-T1-T1-T2-T3 rotation.
(IMG:[113.imagebam.com] http://113.imagebam.com/download/Lop7qaOq4_zQQEHNJ_Egpg/42226/422254672/coalesed.JPG)
We can see average mana price is 39,14 per turn. Quite powerful reduction, isnt? Its a bit higher, because i counted not all 100%, but all others is insignificant. So if you use non-stop draugh/pots than there is no even any red zone.

This post has been edited by nec1986: Jul 16 2015, 11:55

I think he may have been thinking of, for example - if you play Nightmare up to the cap, does that mean that Hard will also have the nerf in effect until it wears off?

That is what I meant (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Though, I was a bit more pessimistic about it. I was worried it affected the higher difficulties too.

Ah..

@Crush85, http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Loot_Drop_Rolls#Limits :
Seeing how other similar things work, I imagine that means
drop_reduction = max[0,(roundcounter-1000)/1000] * droprate_difficulty_cap,

where droprate_difficulty_cap = 75% (normal), 50% (hard), 25% (nightmare), 0% (other difficulties).

And loot_drop rate is multiplied by (1-drop_reduction).

Ah thanks. I wasn't 100% on that. I'm glad that's cleared up. Doing the Trio and the Tree on hell mode was tedious.

Now I can be lazy without fear (for the most part).

Actually its probably lower.
Some mobs is weaker, so you can finish it with lower price. Maybe cure returns it back, because its also quite mana expensive. But the main idea is coalesced (its probably near 35% average price reduction with simple attack way) and some bonus from channeling and passive regeneration.

One additional way is use 4+1. Its not very bad idea, because imperil reduce only 25 mitg. Many monsters has 45+ and its very big difference. We quite often face someone like that, so its good damage increase in this situation, plus additional counter-resist. Its not so hard to increase to 0,6-0,7 prof factor with 1 cotton and it gives up to 29 mitg reduction. Quite good bonus against 50-75 mitg mobs. Or maybe even must have, because 1 phase gives not very big damage increase.

UPD. coalesced effect has wide range, but for example with imperil in simple condition:
Other monsters quite often has debuff, so we mostly need count only first mob, because we hit him. And if he tanky than we get this situation in imperil-T3-T2-T1-T1-T2-T3 rotation.
(IMG:[113.imagebam.com] http://113.imagebam.com/download/Lop7qaOq4_zQQEHNJ_Egpg/42226/422254672/coalesed.JPG)
We can see average mana price is 39,14 per turn. Quite powerful reduction, isnt? Its a bit higher, because i counted not all 100%, but all others is insignificant. So if you use non-stop draugh/pots than there is no even any red zone.

Thanks! I'm already using 4+1, with ~ 0.73 prof factor. This should give ~ 30 mitigation reduction. The additional 25 mitigation reduction from dark imperil, while very nice, isn't as important as the -50% Mmi reduction. Bottom line is that even if I went for a 1.0 prof build with -50% dark mitigation reduction, I think I'd still need the Mmi reduction.

I have to admit that I don't quite understand the table. What are the fractions in the first column, and the percentages in the left half? Could you please explain?

Sure. Left % is frequency. We have 35% of all situations where after 1 skill we got coalesced. 22,75% is all situations where we got it after 2 spells(65% of another situations multiplied by 35%) and so on. After that simple sequence with mana price. Coalesced after 1,2,3 and so on spells which gives half price reduction. After side line same, but in mp. In theory the more we have cheap spells in start the lower overall price gonna be. 40 is imperil and if we use it more than once than chance for coalesced is higher (and cheaper gonna be after that T3-T2-T1). T2-T3-T1 maybe can be even better here, because we probably cant oneshot many monsters, but its not possibly to place in rotation so there is no sense to move in that direction.

Last one is average price. First line 40-44-28-19-19-28-44 means coalesced after imperil and average mp/turn here is 222/7=31,71. And because its only 35% of all situations then its gonna be ~11,1 in overall average mp/turn. If we count all 100% situation than its gonna be sum of all. Because i missed some small chances (had to use simple one overall result for all no coalesced), than its gonna be slightly higher. But quite close to that amount.

Its a very rough approach, but more or less it shows how good coalesced reduce mana price.

Actually the more i count the worse eco becomes. Even for holy.

Yep. Eco is the worst. Better to go for Archmage in EDB Staffs. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

Nowadays I'm using 20+ EDs

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

About "be monster class dependent", isn't it already the case in this patch? For example, Giant is weak against Wind, Arthropod is weak against Cold, etc.

They are still fixed base value of "-50 (Weak), 0 (Neutral), +50 (Resistant)". I think those base values will be adjusted.

So, I have nett usage of 388 MP per 10 turns or 1554 MP in 40 turns. Mana pot seems to restore about 1000 MP, so I'm 554 MP in the red.

At long as I regain that 554 MP through gems, riddlemaster, or tap, I should have enough MP to go on and not need to flee. Hopefully.

Theoretically many things are possible. But the big question is: Is that the same case in practical? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Actually its probably lower.

Is that so? Okay, then tell me, how many Draught/Pots do you usually drop per day? With how many rounds of playing? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by tetron: Jul 16 2015, 14:01

1. What does Tenb mean by "changes on mitigation versus HP"? Will a monster with high/low mitigation have less/more HP?

some effective hp from mit will convert to hp so weapons like axe and longsword will do better. Just like this patch with slaughter suffix.
maybe niten will be good next patch (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Is that so? Okay, then tell me, how many Draught/Pots do you usually drop per day? With how many rounds of playing?

Its moving up and down. Last time im playing only pf arenas. And because i did without tap now i have 1300 pot / 772 elixir. Actually i dont use tap also quite long time. If i look at result, than i had ~2k pots. So its -700 pots. But ive never bought pots, so it looks ok for me. I just dont sell it to other players, but the reason is because im lazy. Just prefer to do daily non sg and rob. If i d start to do fest again, than even without tap pot amount gonna increase again.

Main idea of holy/dark is buy pots, but get more drop. And because drop worth more than pots, than it has positive value.
UPD. With good set even holy/dark has very good pot income. Holydemon finished fest with only like 20 pots, 50 draughts used. Its so low amount. But he did some small tapping like once per 10 rounds.
UPD2. I gonna check result with small tapping after my ordinary daily. Current pot amount is 1298.

This post has been edited by nec1986: Jul 16 2015, 15:09

If i look at result, than i had ~2k pots. So its -700 pots. But ive never bought pots,

[Contradictory Statement Detected] (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Main idea of holy/dark is buy pots, but get more drop. And because drop worth more than pots, than it has positive value.

This I agree with 100%. And it's not just for Holy/Dark only. Even many elemental mages who are poorly optimized may face pot crisis. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

UPD. With good set even holy/dark has very good pot income. Holydemon finished fest with only like 20 pots, 50 draughts used. Its so low amount. But he did some small tapping like once per 10 rounds.

You're forgetting a very important factor here: The Difficulty. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)