[X] My Assistant

Thanks both for your answers. Time to start saving.

Q1
The wiki says that "Battles Won" does not count when "Deaths to a player's own monsters", but what about the following situations?
1-1
Assumed that Player is not the trainer of Monster A and Monster B.
Player encounters Monsters A and Monster B -> Player kills Monster A -> Player is defeated by Monster B -> Will the "Battles Won" stat of Monster A increase by 1?
1-2
Assumed that Player is not the trainer of Monster A, but is the trainer of Monster B.
Player encounters Monsters A and Monster B -> Player kills Monster A -> Player is defeated by Monster B -> Will the "Battles Won" stat of Monster A increase by 1?
1-3
Assumed that Player is the trainer of Monster A, but is not the trainer of Monster B.
Player encounters Monsters A and Monster B -> Player kills Monster A -> Player is defeated by Monster B -> Will the "Battles Won" stat of Monster A increase by 1?

Q2
Is there any difference when a monster wins a battle with and without a killing blow? Does a killing blow increase the chance of a monster bringing a gift?

Q3
Is it possible that a monster fights with more than one player at the same time?

Q4
About the "Accuracy" chaos upgrade that increases monster accuracy by 5%, should one ignore it completely when targeting 1H+Heavy players?
(The rationale is that 1H+Heavy players have extremely low Evade, which means a monster almost never misses when attacking and hence needs no Accuracy upgrade.)

Q5
Credits are never enough when it comes to training monsters.
When your budget is tight, which traning strategy do you think is better and why?

Strategy A: Maximize [en.wikipedia.org] Precision
Focus on increasing the chance of "when your monster is picked in battle, it will win the battle."

Strategy B: Maximize [en.wikipedia.org] Recall
Focus on increasing the chance of "your monster will be picked in battle as many times as possible."

Q6
Rumor has it that when picking monsters to fight with a player, the battle system tends to choose monsters with the same class.
For example, if a player encounters 10 monsters, the chance of seeing:
Giant, Avion, Giant, Giant, Celestial, Giant, Avion, Celestial, Celestial, Giant
is higher than seeing:
Mechanoid, Dragonkin, Reptilian, Sprite, Giant, Avion, Beast, Celestial, Undead, Daimon
So what do you think about this training strategy:
Instead of training one PL1499 Giant with good chaos upgrades, train 5+ PL1000 Giants who only have Scavenger maxed.
(The rationale is that other Giant teammates are generally strong, so the chance of a player being defeated is already not low.)

This post has been edited by djackallstar: Jul 11 2015, 17:01

HTTP said in the past that training scav , brutal , fort , swift take more priority than other for him (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I'm kinda forget about this since he post it more than 2 years ago (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)


I already salvaged 3 my soulbinding equipments (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

Q4
About the "Accuracy" chaos upgrade that increases monster accuracy by 5%, should one ignore it completely when targeting 1H+Heavy players?
(The rationale is that 1H+Heavy players have extremely low Evade, which means a monster almost never misses when attacking and hence needs no Accuracy upgrade.)

I believe that accuracy for monsters is not the same as accuracy for player, I think it's upgrade increase only accuracy, otherwise it would be overkilling: anti-evade + accuracy upgrades will remove all evade from player.

just to confirm...

you can only use equipment up to 50 levels above your current level right?
with soul-fuse of course.

i am seeing people buying equipment which are in the level 450~480 region when they are still 20 to 30 levels away from being able to soul-fuse and equip them.

IIRC Tenboro mentioned that monster's accuracy does not affect player's evade chance.

just to confirm...

you can only use equipment up to 50 levels above your current level right?
with soul-fuse of course.

i am seeing people buying equipment which are in the level 450~480 region when they are still 20 to 30 levels away from being able to soul-fuse and equip them.

Maybe they're buying first and going to level up later to use the equipment with soulfuse, or just for collection. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Cats Lover: Jul 11 2015, 16:25

IIRC Tenboro mentioned that monster's accuracy does not affect player's evade chance.
Maybe they're buying first and going to level up later to use the equipment with soulfuse, or just for collection. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or they may have shadow clone friend within the 50 level range. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I found Tenboro's mention about monster's accuracy.

@Tenboro, do monsters gain accuracy from stats like players

If so does that mean they can get over 100% with chaos upgrades and stats.

If this occurs is it an additional anti-evade for them?

They do not, they cannot, and it does not.

just to confirm...

you can only use equipment up to 50 levels above your current level right?
with soul-fuse of course.

i am seeing people buying equipment which are in the level 450~480 region when they are still 20 to 30 levels away from being able to soul-fuse and equip them.

maybe they can lvl up very fast (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

IIRC Tenboro mentioned that monster's accuracy does not affect player's evade chance.
Maybe they're buying first and going to level up later to use the equipment with soulfuse, or just for collection. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

maybe collection (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Or they may have shadow clone friend within the 50 level range. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

512 4 Yggdrasil hits you for 778 void damage.
511 5 Skuld hits you for 468 crushing damage.

1835 7 Skuld hits you for 2712 crushing damage.
1835 3 Yggdrasil hits you for 3322 void damage.

2099 5 Skuld hits you for 3087 crushing damage.
2099 3 Yggdrasil hits you for 4023 void damage.

2102 4 Yggdrasil hits you for 3987 void damage.

Interesting. This must have been done in this patch. Cause I remember something like this wasn't happening in the Arena before the patch.

Maybe I should just log off completely for a few months until 0.83 comes out, so I can actually get stuff without worrying about purchases turning into very bad unlucky decisions in retrospect.

And you believe that 0.83 will be any better? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

People can only use 1 set at a time.

Unless they are Multi-Accounters. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Speaking of which, doesn't this patch slaps in the faces of the Muti-Accounters? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Credits are never enough when it comes to training monsters.
When your budget is tight, which traning strategy do you think is better and why?

Strategy A: Maximize [en.wikipedia.org] Precision
Focus on increasing the chance of "when your monster is picked in battle, it will win the battle."

Strategy B: Maximize [en.wikipedia.org] Recall
Focus on increasing the chance of "your monster will be picked in battle as many times as possible."

I'll vote for Strategy B. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

So what do you think about this training strategy:
Instead of training one PL1499 Giant with good chaos upgrades, train 5+ PL1000 Giants who only have Scavenger maxed.

Well, this is the very same strategy that I follow. So far, it has worked out pretty well. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

just to confirm...

you can only use equipment up to 50 levels above your current level right?
with soul-fuse of course.

i am seeing people buying equipment which are in the level 450~480 region when they are still 20 to 30 levels away from being able to soul-fuse and equip them.

as guarantee if they (i) don't find any upgrade when levelling up. As long as those are cheap & reselable though.

D'oh, i've been socialized too much that multi-accounting is risky. I regret. ;__;

This post has been edited by Dead-ed: Jul 11 2015, 17:48

while it's true that every monster is weak to one or more elements when created, it's also true that those mitigations can be upgraded, [hvlist.niblseed.com] to the point that you cannot say 'that monster is weak to an element' anymore.

therefore, a certain element is useful only when facing monsters with fixed mitigations (SGs, gods, dragons etc) and there is no need to worry too much about the second elemental strike/prefix, as long as there is for a surplus damage, correct?

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Jul 11 2015, 19:07

Q1
The wiki says that "Battles Won" does not count when "Deaths to a player's own monsters", but what about the following situations?
1-1
Assumed that Player is not the trainer of Monster A and Monster B.
Player encounters Monsters A and Monster B -> Player kills Monster A -> Player is defeated by Monster B -> Will the "Battles Won" stat of Monster A increase by 1?
1-2
Assumed that Player is not the trainer of Monster A, but is the trainer of Monster B.
Player encounters Monsters A and Monster B -> Player kills Monster A -> Player is defeated by Monster B -> Will the "Battles Won" stat of Monster A increase by 1?
1-3
Assumed that Player is the trainer of Monster A, but is not the trainer of Monster B.
Player encounters Monsters A and Monster B -> Player kills Monster A -> Player is defeated by Monster B -> Will the "Battles Won" stat of Monster A increase by 1?

When monsters win, it counts as a win for all of the monsters in that round, right? Except for the unusual situation where the defeated player owns one of the monsters, in which case that one monster would not receive the win. So

1-1: Yes
1-2: Yes
1-3: No

Q2
Is there any difference when a monster wins a battle with and without a killing blow? Does a killing blow increase the chance of a monster bringing a gift?

Q3
Is it possible that a monster fights with more than one player at the same time?

2: Many have said there is no difference, it's just for bragging rights.

3: Most definitely.

Q5
Credits are never enough when it comes to training monsters.
When your budget is tight, which traning strategy do you think is better and why?

Strategy A: Maximize [en.wikipedia.org] Precision
Focus on increasing the chance of "when your monster is picked in battle, it will win the battle."

Strategy B: Maximize [en.wikipedia.org] Recall
Focus on increasing the chance of "your monster will be picked in battle as many times as possible."

The best strategy would definitely be a combination of both, though it also depends on how many chaos tokens and crystals you're willing/able to spend on an individual monster (or on all your monsters in general). Roughly, wins = (battles fought) * (chance of winning), so neither must be too neglected, given your resources and ability to affect those variables.

I don't think the individual monster has much of an effect on the chance of a winning battle. The difference is between (1 of the 7? monsters has no chaos investment) and (1 of the 7? monsters has high chaos investment). I'm making up numbers here, but it might be the difference between 0.03% and 0.04%. Given increasing chaos costs, the most effective chaos strategy for a certain set of your monsters is likely something similar to only very lightly upgrading the important upgrades on each. Your monsters won't be surprising players by doing a ton of damage, or by being able to tank a whole lot of hits, but even and light chaos upgrades across all monsters will maximize overall damage done and overall damage that can be absorbed, which I would think would be the most efficient way of increasing your chances of a win per chaos token spent. Your monsters probably won't get many killing blows, but that's OK.

Q6
Rumor has it that when picking monsters to fight with a player, the battle system tends to choose monsters with the same class.
For example, if a player encounters 10 monsters, the chance of seeing:
Giant, Avion, Giant, Giant, Celestial, Giant, Avion, Celestial, Celestial, Giant
is higher than seeing:
Mechanoid, Dragonkin, Reptilian, Sprite, Giant, Avion, Beast, Celestial, Undead, Daimon

I was under the impression that it was impossible to see more than 4 types at once. Not just "less likely", but "impossible".

So what do you think about this training strategy:
Instead of training one PL1499 Giant with good chaos upgrades, train 5+ PL1000 Giants who only have Scavenger maxed.
(The rationale is that other Giant teammates are generally strong, so the chance of a player being defeated is already not low.)

You also have to consider that the amount of Giant competition is significantly higher than other monster classes. Chances of winning might be a bit higher, but chances of appearing in a battle is notably lower. I would be tempted to train monsters of a less popular class (but not of a generally ineffective class like Humanoid).

And you believe that 0.83 will be any better? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Yes. Right now, there is a pretty good chance of significant rebalancing changes occurring in the not too distant future. But after 0.83 comes out, and after the initial couple weeks or so of the patch have passed for kinks to be worked out, I think there is a high likelihood of things staying mostly static for quite a while, like they had been for a long time up until 0.82.

Right now, significant investments in a particular style are somewhat risky, since they may be "rebalanced" and become substandard. Holy may become the new Fire, for instance.

After the patch, investments will be less risky, because significant style changes will not be likely to take place any time soon after 0.83. Probably.

while it's true that every monster is weak to one or more elements when created, it's also true that those mitigations can be upgraded, [hvlist.niblseed.com] to the point that you cannot say 'that monster is weak to an element' anymore.

therefore, a certain element is useful only when facing monsters with fixed mitigations (SGs, gods, dragons etc) and there is no need to worry too much about the second elemental strike/prefix, as long as there is for a surplus damage, correct?

No way.

At high PL, it's not that monsters are weak to particular elements (mitigations are way positive), but they are still notably weaker to certain elements. That's one of the reasons Holy works so well right now - even though monsters have high mitigation, they (generally) have even higher wind/fire etc mitigation, so if you don't use Imperil to mess with the mitigation values, Holy (and Dark) have an edge in that respect.

I think having Holy/Dark strike is useful (compared to elements). The difference in damage is not large, but if someone is at the point where the next damage upgrade would cost 180k in forge costs and would only increase weapon damage by .8% (overall damage by .1%), for instance, they would certainly be right to worry about having Dark/Holy strike, which might increase overall damage by a couple of percentage points or so against the average monster.

No way.

At high PL, it's not that monsters are weak to particular elements (mitigations are way positive), but they are still notably weaker to certain elements. That's one of the reasons Holy works so well right now - even though monsters have high mitigation, they (generally) have even higher wind/fire etc mitigation, so if you don't use Imperil to mess with the mitigation values, Holy (and Dark) have an edge in that respect.

I think having Holy/Dark strike is useful (compared to elements). The difference in damage is not large, but if someone is at the point where the next damage upgrade would cost 180k in forge costs and would only increase weapon damage by .8% (overall damage by .1%), for instance, they would certainly be right to worry about having Dark/Holy strike, which might increase overall damage by a couple of percentage points or so against the average monster.

i was speaking from a melee's point of view, so no imperil (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

also, what are good potencies for an ethereal estoc to use with shade armors? i guess fatality, swift and butcher, but seeing that jenga's estoc also has overpower makes me think it's actually useful in some way...

i was speaking from a melee's point of view, so no imperil (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

also, what are good potencies for an ethereal estoc to use with shade armors? i guess fatality, swift and butcher, but seeing that jenga's estoc also has overpower makes me think it's actually useful in some way...

I heard that Overpower was one of most desired potencies for 2h since they can't counter-parry otherwise. Better to avoid parries that eliminate your damage completely than to have slightly higher damage with Butcher/Fatality.

I'm doubtful about the usefulness of Swift Strike. With faster action speed, Regen will also occur more slowly. It'll only reduce damage taken through monsters dying a fraction of action units less, though it'll still take the same number of turns to kill - so I think Butcher/Fatality would be better than SS, since they would directly reduce number of turns needed to kill. Butcher probably has the edge due to high weapon damage, but that's a wild guess.

I heard that Overpower was one of most desired potencies for 2h since they can't counter-parry otherwise. Better to avoid parries that eliminate your damage completely than to have slightly higher damage with Butcher/Fatality.

I'm doubtful about the usefulness of Swift Strike. With faster action speed, Regen will also occur more slowly. It'll only reduce damage taken through monsters dying a fraction of action units less, though it'll still take the same number of turns to kill - so I think Butcher/Fatality would be better than SS, since they would directly reduce number of turns needed to kill. Butcher probably has the edge due to high weapon damage, but that's a wild guess.

basically, overpower > butcher ≥ fatality >> swift

Yep. Max is 4 classes. Overall chance is very close (and i think its exact) to amount of mobs. If overall giants is 17% of population than we gonna deal with same ratio.

But it also looks like additional chance to get similar class. Like potency staff. I mean for example first mob is Avion. Its not popular class and its more like 2-3% of all. But here is few examples of rounds with it:

Avion, Celestial, Celestial, Avion, Sprite, Sprite, Sprite, Avion, Elemental. Its 3 in one round. Sure we gonna deal with only 4 classes, but celestial is much more popular and its only 2 mobs.
Next example.
Daimon, Avion, Avion, Daimon, Beast, Daimon, Avion, Beast, Avion. 4 in one round. Or maybe this one is more interesting. Dragonkin x6, Avion, Avion, Dragonkin. Its not even limit, because avion was second class, but next one was exact same.

Im not sure about correct chances, because its quite time consuming and has no profit, but it looks quite high to get similar instead new one. It has no big advantage, because even if we play mage, than chance to get someone tanky is anyway high. Giant+Undead+Dragonkin+Arthropod is more than 44% and to get at least 1 that mob is very common. Even 1 is enough to increase our turns/round.

This post has been edited by nec1986: Jul 12 2015, 00:50

I'm thinking about trying to do some Mage style fighting but I'm not sure what equipment and Abilities would be best to use. Anyone have any tips? Also what spells are best to use. Thanks

This post has been edited by High Rolla: Jul 12 2015, 01:27

Thanks to everyone who answered my previous questions.

You also have to consider that the amount of Giant competition is significantly higher than other monster classes. Chances of winning might be a bit higher, but chances of appearing in a battle is notably lower. I would be tempted to train monsters of a less popular class (but not of a generally ineffective class like Humanoid).

I had been tempted to train monsters of a less popular class, too, before I had a deeper thinking.
There are five problems one will have to think about when training an unpopular monster.

Problem 1: Unpopular due to being weak in the first place.
The main reason that popular monsters are popular is because they tend to be strong in critical stats, and unpopular monsters are unpopular because they are not as strong as popular monsters.

Problem 2: Weak teammates.
Empirical evidence has shown that a player can face at most 4 types of monsters in one battle round, which means a monster will has 0 ~ 6 "teammates" (monsters of the same class).
Since unpopular monsters are generally weak, the chance of an unpopular monsters having weak teammates is higher than a popular monster.
IMO having good teammates is the most critical factor to win a battle.

Problem 3. Unpopular doesn't mean that the class will appears in battle more often.
There are way more Giants than Avions in any PL ranges; however, there is no statistical evidence showing that the class "Giant" appears more often than the class "Avion" on average in one battle round. (the "class", not #monsters in that class)

Problem 4. What PL range is the most profitable for an unpopular monster?
A popular monster like Giant does well whether PL=250 or PL=1499, due to high HP an high damage.
But to an unpopular monster, it might only work well in a narrower PL range, to players with certain type. (ex: heavy armor)
Finding out the correct PL range is the hard part, and the PL range is subject to change. (when a patch comes or when popular play styles change.)

Problem 5. What unpopular class is the best? And how many to train?
Even if one decides to train a monster of an unpopular class, what class is the best and why? And #monsters to train?
Reptilian, Avion, Sprite, or Beast? They have diverse profiles, and making a profitibility model for just one class already gives me headache.
Jenga's monster database helps to a certain extent, but I need more data such as Battles Won, chaos upgrades, etc, which I won't be able to get unless revealed by players.


This post has been edited by djackallstar: Jul 12 2015, 01:49