[X] My Assistant

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Wall of maths is worse than wall of text (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to figure out, given a certain amount of damage to a monster without Imperil of Magic Proficiency effects, how much more damage there would be with Imperil and with Proficiency. But my head hurts when thinking about it.

Here, have a little math, just don't tell skillchip, before he points out every error i made =D
Also i only did Imperil, would have been waaaaaaaay too long with values for prof (and all the cases for multiplicative or additive).
For the same reasoning i only did Imperil for Holy/Dark, elemental would have been to annoying to calculate by hand.

Pick your way of addition/multiplication, pick the MMI/SMI area and compare min/max values to min/max of Z (unimperiled)

CODE

Let dmg be Original_Damage_Roll * (1 - PMI or MMI) * (1 - SMI)    [1]
Let Original_Damage_Roll be x
Let PMI be Physical Mitigation
Let MMI be Magical Mitigation
Let SMI be Special Mitigation

Then dmg is x * (1 - PMI or MMI) * (1 - SMI)
PMI is not involved in magic damage

Then dmg is x * (1 - MMI) * (1 - SMI)
With Imperil MMI is (MMI * 0.5) or max(0, (MMI - 0.5))            [2]
With Imperil SMI is (SMI * 0.75) or max(0, (SMI - 0.25))          [2]

Then dmg is either
I        x * (1 - (MMI * 0.5)) * (1 - (SMI * 0.75))
II        x * (1 - max(0, (MMI - 0.5))) * (1 - (SMI * 0.75))
III    x * (1 - (MMI * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (SMI - 0.25)))
IV        x * (1 - max(0, (MMI - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (SMI - 0.25)))

With x eliminated to determine the multiplier
I        (1 - (MMI * 0.5)) * (1 - (SMI * 0.75))
II        (1 - max(0, (MMI - 0.5))) * (1 - (SMI * 0.75))
III    (1 - (MMI * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (SMI - 0.25)))
IV        (1 - max(0, (MMI - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (SMI - 0.25)))

Let Z be (dmg / x)

Index a is used for minimum values
Index b is used for maximum values

The next step is to determine the difference between I, II, III, IV and Z
Assumption 1: let MMI be 0 <= MMI <= 0.5, let SMI be 0 <= SMI <= 0.25
Then (MMI * 0.5) > max(0, (MMI - 0.5))
Then (SMI * 0.75) > max(0, (SMI - 0.25))

Ia        (1 - (0 * 0.5)) * (1 - 0 * 0.75) = 1
Ib        (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - (0.25 * 0.75)) = 0.75 * 0.81 = 0.60
----
IIa    (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.5))) * (1 - (0 * 0.75)) = 1
IIb    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - (0.25 * 0.75)) = 1 * 0.81 = 0.81
----
IIIa    (1 - (0 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.25))) = 1
IIIb    (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 0.75 * 1 = 0.75
----
IVa    (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.25))) = 1
IVb    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 1
####
Za        (1 - 0) * (1 - 0) = 1
Zb        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.25) = 0.5 * 0.75 = 0.375


Assumption 2a: let MMI be 0.5 < MMI <= 1, let SMI be 0 <= SMI <= 0.25
Then (MMI * 0.5) > max(0, (MMI - 0.5))
Then (SMI * 0.75) > max(0, (SMI - 0.25))

Ia        (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - 0 * 0.75) = 0.75 * 1 = 0.75
Ib        (1 - (1 * 0.5)) * (1 - (0.25 * 0.75)) = 0.5 * 0.81 = 0.41
----
IIa    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - (0 * 0.75)) = 1 * 1 = 1
IIb    (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.5))) * (1 - (0.25 * 0.75)) = 0.5 * 0.81 = 0.41
----
IIIa    (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.25))) = 1 * 1 = 1
IIIb    (1 - (1 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 0.75 * 1 = 0.5 * 1 = 0.5
----
IVa    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.25))) = 1 * 1 = 1
IVb    (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 0.5 * 1 = 0.5
####
Za        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0) = 0.5 * 1 = 0.5
Zb        (1 - 1) * (1 - 0.25) = 0 * 0.75 = 0


Assumption 2b: let MMI > 1, let SMI be <= 0.25
MMI may not be greater than 1


Assumption 3a: let MMI be 0 <= MMI <= 0.5, let SMI be 0.25 < SMI <= 1
Then (MMI * 0.5) > max(0, (MMI - 0.5))
Then (SMI * 0.75) > max(0, (SMI - 0.25))

Ia        (1 - (0 * 0.5)) * (1 - 0.25 * 0.75) = 1 * 0.81 = 0.81
Ib        (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - (1 * 0.75)) = 0.75 * 0.25 = 0.19
----
IIa    (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.5))) * (1 - (0.25 * 0.75)) = 1 * 0.81 = 0.81
IIb    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - (1 * 0.75)) = 1 * 0.25 = 0.25
----
IIIa    (1 - (0 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 1 * 1 = 1
IIIb    (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.25))) = 0.75 * 0.25 = 0.19
----
IVa    (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 1 * 1 = 1
IVb    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.25))) = 1 * 0.25 = 0.25
####
Za        (1 - 0) * (1 - 0.25) = 1 * 0.75 = 0.75
Zb        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 1) = 0.5 * 0 = 0


Assumption 3b: let MMI be <= 0.5, let SMI be > 1
SMI may not be greater than 1


Assumption 4: let MMI be 0.5 < MMI <= 1, let SMI be 0.25 < SMI <= 1
Then (MMI * 0.5) > max(0, (MMI - 0.5))
Then (SMI * 0.75) > max(0, (SMI - 0.25))

Ia        (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - 0.25 * 0.75) = 0.5 * 0.81 = 0.41
Ib        (1 - (1 * 0.5)) * (1 - (1 * 0.75)) = 0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125
----
IIa    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - (0.25 * 0.75)) = 1 * 0.81 = 0.81
IIb    (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.5))) * (1 - (1 * 0.75)) = 0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125
----
IIIa    (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 0.75 * 1 = 0.75
IIIb    (1 - (1 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.25))) = 0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125
----
IVa    (1 - max(0, (0.5 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (0.25 - 0.25))) = 1 * 1 = 1
IVb    (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.5))) * (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.25))) = 0.5 * 0.25 = 0.125
####
Za        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.25) = 0.5 * 0.75 = 0.375
Zb        (1 - 1) * (1 - 1) = 0 * 0 = 0

[1] = wiki
[2] = - Debuffs and negative stat modifiers can no longer reduce stats below 0, or reduced them further if the stat is already negative. This primarily affects specific mitigation.


// couldn't find a potato or banana image

This post has been edited by simrock87: Mar 26 2015, 09:14

Wall of maths is worse than wall of text (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

that's why i stop thinking about it. i take the caveman approach. higher = better. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

And then Patch 0.82 comes. AD&Dverse: lower = better (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

Wall of maths is worse than wall of text (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Wall of physics is worse. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

And then Patch 0.82 comes. AD&Dverse: lower = better (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

That shit is so confusing. Every time I try getting back into a game like Baldur's Gate, I have to refresh myself on all of those concepts and I lose the motivation. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/faint.gif)

Thanks simrock. You lost me pretty early, at

CODE

With Imperil MMI is (MMI * 0.5) or max(0, (MMI - 0.5))            [2]
With Imperil SMI is (SMI * 0.75) or max(0, (SMI - 0.25))          [2]

I understand and agree with max(0, (MMI - 0.5)). I also understand and agree with max(0, (SMI - 0.25)) for the case of holy/dark dmg; fire/cold/elec/wind is different.

I don't understand the first part: (MMI * 0.5) and (SMI * 0.75), since Tenboro seems to say that these mitigations reductions are additive.

I've got a headache with the other branching options already (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) Will have to look at them another time.

Thanks simrock. You lost me pretty early, at

CODE

With Imperil MMI is (MMI * 0.5) or max(0, (MMI - 0.5))            [2]
With Imperil SMI is (SMI * 0.75) or max(0, (SMI - 0.25))          [2]

I understand and agree with max(0, (MMI - 0.5)). I also understand and agree with max(0, (SMI - 0.25)) for the case of holy/dark dmg; fire/cold/elec/wind is different.

I don't understand the first part: (MMI * 0.5) and (SMI * 0.75), since Tenboro seems to say that these mitigations reductions are additive.

I've got a headache with the other branching options already (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif) Will have to look at them another time.

Well ... i just went with the Imperil tooltip (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[dissipate_mit] => -50%
[mitigations] => [holy] => -25

Since one is as a percent value and the other one is a flat number i was a little unsure, so i just did all combinations.
The percentage indicator would suggest a multiplier for MMI and the flat number for SMI most likely indicates an additive behaviour, so the most likely formula used is III.

CODE

Assumption 1: let MMI be 0 <= MMI <= 0.5, let SMI be 0 <= SMI <= 0.4
IIIa    (1 - (0 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.4))) = 1
IIIb    (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.4 - 0.4))) = 0.75 * 1 = 0.75
Za        (1 - 0) * (1 - 0) = 1
Zb        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.4) = 0.5 * 0.6 = 0.3

Assumption 2a: let MMI be 0.5 < MMI <= 1, let SMI be 0 <= SMI <= 0.4
IIIa    (1 - (0 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0 - 0.4))) = 1
IIIb    (1 - (1 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.4 - 0.4))) = 0.5 * 1 = 0.5
Za        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0) = 0.5 * 1 = 0.5
Zb        (1 - 1) * (1 - 0.4) = 0 * 0.6 = 0

Assumption 3a: let MMI be 0 <= MMI <= 0.5, let SMI be 0.4 < SMI <= 1
IIIa    (1 - (0 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.4 - 0.4))) = 1 * 1 = 1
IIIb    (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.4))) = 0.75 * 0.6 = 0.45
Za        (1 - 0) * (1 - 0.4) = 1 * 0.6 = 0.6
Zb        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 1) = 0.5 * 0 = 0

Assumption 4: let MMI be 0.5 < MMI <= 1, let SMI be 0.4 < SMI <= 1
IIIa    (1 - (0.5 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (0.4 - 0.4))) = 0.75 * 1 = 0.75
IIIb    (1 - (1 * 0.5)) * (1 - max(0, (1 - 0.4))) = 0.5 * 0.6 = 0.3
Za        (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.4) = 0.5 * 0.6 = 0.3
Zb        (1 - 1) * (1 - 1) = 0 * 0 = 0

// Edit: Elemental Imperil values, also noticed an error in my original thingy

This post has been edited by simrock87: Mar 26 2015, 09:12

Wall of physics is worse. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

personally i like walls of physics more than walls of philosophy: at least in the first there are images and formulas that make an easy-going reading. and furthermore, at least it speaks about something real (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

How rare is a token of blood? I only gotten 2 token of blood in my life. And i have yet to make a monster. How do i get started? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Our knowledge of physics doesnt have much differense from knowledge of philosophy. In most cases we just accept something we can see and cant explain why its exact that way.

How rare is a token of blood? I only gotten 2 token of blood in my life. And i have yet to make a monster. How do i get started? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Play more rounds on low difficulty give you more tokens.
Clear arena also give extra token (not always , depended on number of rounds).
Blood tokens are useless anyway. I cannot even get good enough equipment for donation from TTT (10 tokens per trial).


For physics, the only rule I known is F=ma. .
But it seems it is only a close estimation but not a truth......

This post has been edited by Colman: Mar 26 2015, 17:25

Our knowledge of physics doesnt have much differense from knowledge of philosophy. In most cases we just accept something we can see and cant explain why its exact that way.

Not agree. We can exactly explain why a car shouldn't drive too fast while doing a loop or why water boils at higher temperatures than other binary compounds of hydrogen, but we cannot still a noumenon (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
Surely, we cannot still see a magnetic field, but at least we can see its effects, understand how it's generated and what it does. It's still something, i'd say...

I have 75% added to my exp through Hath. I have 230% exp added through credits. Should i increase my hath exp or sell all my hath and increase my xredits exp to max?

I have 75% added to my exp through Hath. I have 230% exp added through credits. Should i increase my hath exp or sell all my hath and increase my xredits exp to max?

Just do the math to see how many % per credit you get with each method.

One isn't better than the other, but one might cost more.

Thank you for your earlier answers! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (I recently fell into a lot of credits so I'm planning to do some shopping)
I apologize in advance for really pumping you for information here (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
But seriously any and all help you can offer me is greatly appreciated! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


(This is similar to a question I asked earlier but that was only on off-hands)

1. Which ethereal Rapier would you recommend as a main hand weapon when DW (suffix, PABs, and any other stat(s) that's extra important, is PA chance (way) above all else )?

2. The consensus seems to be that the rapier should be used as a main when DW, unless if close to 100% off-hand strike chance is reached. Then it can be either main or off-hand, is this right?

2.1 Is there any stats that the rapier I'm planning to buy could have that should mean that I should use it as a off-hand weapon? (I'm thinking if I reach close to 100% off-hand strike and the rapier has better parry and or attack accuracy than my current main.)

3. Should I switch to 1H (with a rapier) i.e is it general better than DW, if so what should i look for in a shield (and rapier if it's different than when DW)?

4. I'm using full shade mostly pretty good Exq. and some decent Mag., should I switch to another Armour set for DW or 1H (if that's what you recommend in the previous question.)?

5. If not how would you rank the different shade suffixes(I'm thinking from best to worst Shadowdancer, Fleet ,Arcanist, Negation) and which prefix is best (I'm thinking Savage) and how important is it (agile included) more important than any suffix for example, any other stat(s) that is especially important? (You have already told me High PAB in DEX and AGI is very important in shade) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Some of my stats Info:
I'm using full shade and this Waki as a main at the moment and have 77-78% off-hand strike chance (depending of which off-hand weapon I'm using)

6. Are all no longer droppable equipment (all in general and Gossamer in particular) worth buying from the bazaar i.e can they always be sold for more money in the forum?


Lastly two kind of unimportant questions just something I'm curios about feel free to ignore it if you want. (you are of course entitled to ignore any and all of the other question, too) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

7. Does anyone know how long items stay in the item shop before they are bought by a item shop bot? I know it isn't instant since I've bought some quite valuable bindings there that were bot demanded.(I checked)

8. Why is Unicorn and Noodly worth so much more than item shop list price compared to other trophies? (I offered a Unicorn horn to Snowy and just received a mediocre equipment)


I apologize for asking so many long complex(?) questions, but I greatly appreciate any and all answers you can offer.

Thank you and with Kind Regards maaw (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by maaw: Mar 27 2015, 04:00

Is there any guide about how many low, mid, and high grade material needed for upgrading equipment of magnificent or legendary quality? I wish to know, say, for the 10th forge of a stat, how many high-grade and what kind of catalyst needed for my 355 pxp equipment.


-----

5. If not how would you rank the different shade suffixes(I'm thinking from best to worst Shadowdancer, Fleet ,Arcanist, Negation) and which prefix is best (I'm thinking Savage) and how important is it (agile included) more important than any suffix for example, any other stat(s) that is especially important? (You have already told me High PAB in DEX and AGI is very important in shade) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

7. Does anyone know how long items stay in the item shop before they are bought by a item shop bot? I know it isn't instant since I've bought some quite valuable bindings there that were bot demanded.(I checked)

8. Why is Unicorn and Noodly worth so much more than item shop list price compared to other trophies? (I offered a Unicorn horn to Snowy and just received a mediocre equipment)
I apologize for asking so many long complex(?) questions, but I greatly appreciate any and all answers you can offer.

5. I love to get one or two, depending on where I equipped it, arcanist. Because it suck when your spell not landed due to your own insufficient accuracy (which will solve itself if your level is high enough). The rest, I try to get shadowdancer, fleet if I can't, and tend to avoid negation as I haven't really play on grindfest. Again about the grindfest, unless you're playing it deep into hundreds of rounds, the bonus from prefix is pretty negligible.

7. It's number-llimited, not time-limited. If somebody dump a lot of equipment to bazaar, then previously listed stuff will get deleted. That or your own salvaged equipment.

8. Try to compare their resultant equipment against other trophies when you offered them to snowflake.

This post has been edited by clarkiest: Mar 27 2015, 04:08

1. Which ethereal Rapier would you recommend as a main hand weapon when DW (suffix, PABs, and any other stat(s) that's extra important)?

Slaughter for damage. Rapier of slaughter is also suitable for 1H. The drawback is its high price, and the uncertainty in the upcoming patch.

2. The consensus seems to be that the rapier should be used as a main when DW, unless if close to 100% off-hand strike chance is reached. Then it can be either main or off-hand, is this right?

Yes.

2.1 Is there any stats that the rapier I'm planning to buy could have that should mean that I should use it as a off-hand weapon? (I'm thinking if I reach close to 100% off-hand strike and the rapier has better parry and or attack accuracy than my current main.)

http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Equipment_Ranges#Rapier
Find out by yourselves.

3. Should I switch to 1H (with a rapier) i.e is it general better than DW, if so what should i look for in a shield (and rapier if it's different than when DW)?

Until you do not need to heal at all, DW/2H is shit compare to 1H power.

4. I'm using full shade mostly pretty good Exq. and some decent Mag., should I switch to another Armour set for DW or 1H (if that's what you recommend in the previous question.)?

1H power. DW/2H shade.

5. If not how would you rank the different shade suffixes(I'm thinking from best to worst Shadowdancer, Fleet ,Arcanist, Negation) and which prefix is best (I'm thinking Savage) and how important is it (agile included) more important than any suffix for example, any other stat(s) that is especially important? (You have already told me High PAB in DEX and AGI is very important in shade) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You first need to find something available in market. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

6. Are all no longer droppable equipment (all in general and Gossamer in particular) worth buying from the bazaar i.e can they always be sold for more money in the forum?

Only very good items or very old item worth something. Gossamer is very common.

7. Does anyone know how long items stay in the item shop before they are bought by a item shop bot? I know it isn't instant since I've bought some quite valuable bindings there that were bot demanded.(I checked)

It depended on how many items are sold to the bazaar. If some high level selling junk after a few run, the items will be delete within a minute.

8. Why is Unicorn and Noodly worth so much more than item shop list price compared to other trophies? (I offered a Unicorn horn to Snowy and just received a mediocre equipment)

It is because someone used to buy them at a very high price in WTS.

8. Why is Unicorn and Noodly worth so much more than item shop list price compared to other trophies? (I offered a Unicorn horn to Snowy and just received a mediocre equipment)

Long time ago it was 40 or 45k per each noodly. Reason is quite simple. Its because it has very high chance to get legendary and Lgrade staff with good combo worth huge amount. So 1 drop from 1000 can recoup all. Now its mostly 20-25k, because ppl noticed its not so good after all. Probably it has a bit higher value, but any player has choice. Or solid static price or risky chance.

Play more rounds on low difficulty give you more tokens.
Clear arena also give extra token (not always , depended on number of rounds).
Blood tokens are useless anyway. I cannot even get good enough equipment for donation from TTT (10 tokens per trial).
For physics, the only rule I known is F=ma. .
But it seems it is only a close estimation but not a truth......

Oooo play more rounds on low difficulty as in grindfest? Ahahah i just want to get the first clear credit bonuses. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

personally i like walls of physics more than walls of philosophy: at least in the first there are images and formulas that make an easy-going reading. and furthermore, at least it speaks about something real (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

philosophy = abstract, opinionated
physics = concrete, can be replicated by others

therefore

physics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog shit >>> philosophy