[X] My Assistant

And i have all those power armor of warding im using now, i guess i ll save them for later.

Keep in mind that some 95% of damage taken is from physical attacks, rather than magical attacks - though it's true when magic hits, it hits hard with Heavy armor. Once you hit 200 and get Spirit Shield, I'd avoid Warding completely, if you haven't ditched the suffix by then.

(Can anyone out there think of a situation when Warding would be better than Protection, once the chances of a Celestial/Sprite-SP-oneshot from high HP are gone? It seems unfortunate that a suffix would be nearly worthless, but I don't see Warding ever saving more spirit damage taken/mana spent on Cure compared to Protection, given the ratios of physical to magical damage)

Perhaps at some point, physical attacks could be recovered from solely through regen. And warding might help to reduce the amount of SP damage taken.

Keep in mind that some 95% of damage taken is from physical attacks, rather than magical attacks - though it's true when magic hits, it hits hard with Heavy armor. Once you hit 200 and get Spirit Shield, I'd avoid Warding completely, if you haven't ditched the suffix by then.

(Can anyone out there think of a situation when Warding would be better than Protection, once the chances of a Celestial/Sprite-SP-oneshot from high HP are gone? It seems unfortunate that a suffix would be nearly worthless, but I don't see Warding ever saving more spirit damage taken/mana spent on Cure compared to Protection, given the ratios of physical to magical damage)

I won't usually even bother. The thing is, even with Haste, a high-level-enough Celestial/Daimon/Sprite(/Undead, even) can shoot its special attacks twice in a row. Which is where Absorb comes in, because Absorb can trigger multiple times in a round. The scroll version procs 100% of the time, too... so magic attacks never ever get through (as scrolls replenish in combat). Without Absorb, TTT is a nightmare. With Absorb, it's a cakewalk.

Thing is, Power Armor should always be of Slaughter suffix - the idea is to kill faster than you can get hit. This is especially true if you're using 2H or Niten. 1H is ungodly slow no matter what you do, so no biggie.

I won't usually even bother. The thing is, even with Haste, a high-level-enough Celestial/Daimon/Sprite(/Undead, even) can shoot its special attacks twice in a row. Which is where Absorb comes in, because Absorb can trigger multiple times in a round. The scroll version procs 100% of the time, too... so magic attacks never ever get through (as scrolls replenish in combat). Without Absorb, TTT is a nightmare. With Absorb, it's a cakewalk.

Interesting. I always find absorb scroll dumped to bazaar.
Does scroll receive upgrade from spending ability point to corresponding ability?

Perhaps at some point, physical attacks could be recovered from solely through regen. And warding might help to reduce the amount of SP damage taken.

Yeah, maybe if you've maxed out on PMI from equipment... but if you do that, you probably aren't maximizing your damage/clearing potential.

Thing is, Power Armor should always be of Slaughter suffix - the idea is to kill faster than you can get hit. This is especially true if you're using 2H or Niten. 1H is ungodly slow no matter what you do, so no biggie.

It would seem that Power Slaughter is most useful the less damage your weapon has - though either 2h or Niten (or DW) without Shade seems like suicide, at least if you want to play PF.

But yeah, Power without Slaughter probably isn't worth it in most cases.

Interesting. I always find absorb scroll dumped to bazaar.
Does scroll receive upgrade from spending ability point to corresponding ability?

Doesn't seem like it, since all the AP does is increase chance of absorb, yet scroll's chance is already 100%.

I won't usually even bother. The thing is, even with Haste, a high-level-enough Celestial/Daimon/Sprite(/Undead, even) can shoot its special attacks twice in a row. Which is where Absorb comes in, because Absorb can trigger multiple times in a round. The scroll version procs 100% of the time, too... so magic attacks never ever get through (as scrolls replenish in combat). Without Absorb, TTT is a nightmare. With Absorb, it's a cakewalk.

Thing is, Power Armor should always be of Slaughter suffix - the idea is to kill faster than you can get hit. This is especially true if you're using 2H or Niten. 1H is ungodly slow no matter what you do, so no biggie.

absorb can't proc with crit (sp attack) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

absorb can't proc with crit (sp attack) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

which makes absorb pretty much useless. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

Great, thanks. So, for determining the counter-resist bonus and specific mitigation reduction of magic proficiency, we use

CODE

prof_factor = (effective_proficiency - monsterlevel) / monsterlevel, capped between 0 and 1

counter-resist bonus = 50% x prof_factor.  
* this can potentially reduce the monster's resist stat by half (10% resist => 5% resist)

specific mitigation reduction = 50% * (prof_factor ^ 1.5).  
* the effectiveness of this depends on the monster's natural specific mitigation, but it can potentially triple the spell's damage in the case of 75% to 25% specific mitigation

In comparison with Imperil, which provides up to
* 50% PMI / MMI reduction
* -40% specific mitigation reduction for elemental, and -25% for holy/dark

It seems to me that holy/dark mages should seriously consider going for the proficiency route, whereas elemental mages may opt to simply Imperil instead.

I recently picked up proficiency cloths, resulting in a proficiency factor of 0.56 and was doing some calculations. This gives me counter-resist bonus of 28% and specific mitigation reduction of ~ 21%. Combined with dark imperil specific mitigation reduction of 20% at my level, I could get 41% mitigation reduction. That sounds nice, but what does it really mean? And in doing so, my magic score went from 10428 to 9312, down 10%.

So I looked through the monsters that do sp damage to me through my spirit shield. I guess these are most damaging to me and I should pay most attention to them. There are 683 of these monsters with average dark mitigation ~ 38. So, it already sounds great that I would, on average, be able to remove all of their dark mitigation.

Let's contrast with imperil which should remove 20% dark mitigation on it's own. I counted 516 monsters with dark mitigation > 20%, and with average dark mitigation of ~ 48%. So after Imperil, they would still have 28% dark mitigation, on average.

Or, if I stack both imperil and the proficiency effects, i would get ~ 40% mitigation reduction. I counted 416 monsters with dark mitigation > 40%, and with average dark mitigation of 52%. So after imperil & proficiency reduction, they would have 12% mitigation left on average. For these monsters, I'd have increased damage output by 29%

Since proficiency provides similar dark mitigation reduction as Imperil, could I simply forego Imperil and just start nuking monsters directly, saving a few turns in the process? This isn't so clear to me. Apart from specific mitigation reduction, Imperil also provides up to 50% magic mitigation reduction. So failing to cast Imperil could halve the damage dealt. But maybe if I went all the way up to proficiency factor 1.0, it might be good enough. Hmm...

So much for the theory. Now to see how it works out in practice.

P.S. does anyone know what is the typical resistance of monsters?

This post has been edited by mozilla browser: Feb 27 2015, 13:43

Since proficiency provides similar dark mitigation reduction as Imperil, could I simply forego Imperil and just start nuking monsters directly, saving a few turns in the process?

That's what Colman does/did, apparently, though I don't see how playing without the -50% magic mitigation from Imperil could work, except on pretty low difficulty. Or maybe it's that most monsters have significantly less than 50% base magic mitigation? I don't know the numbers either.

What difficult are you on/aiming for?

It would also be really nice to figure out the frequency of resists, so that the counter-resist stat can be factored in as well, so we can come up with more exact values of the worth of cotton piece X vs phase piece Y.

You should also factor in the cost of forging.
The cost of forging a single piece of cotton is significantly less than phase since you don't need phazons.

I personally can go without imperil on Battletoad arenas finishing rounds in around 7 turns.
This is with a 3 phase + 2 cotton set that is forged quite a bit.
You should stick with difficulties BT or lower if you want to skip imperil, unless you have a lot of hath perks and forges with top gear (MNP)

My set for reference:
Staff
Cap
Robe
Gloves
Pants
Shoes

Prof: Max cloth + holy, Staff 330.47/342

Perks: Gold star; VV; IA III

Trainings: Max pack rat

This post has been edited by cirrux: Feb 27 2015, 15:09

You should also factor in the cost of forging.
The cost of forging a single piece of cotton is significantly less than phase since you don't need phazons.

I personally can go without imperil on Battletoad arenas finishing rounds in around 7 turns.
This is with a 3 phase + 2 cotton set that is forged quite a bit.
You should stick with difficulties BT or lower if you want to skip imperil, unless you have a lot of hath perks and forges with top gear (MNP)

My set for reference:
Staff
Cap
Robe
Gloves
Pants
Shoes

Prof: Max cloth + holy, Staff 330.47/342

Perks: Gold star; VV; IA III

Trainings: Max pack rat

just curious, how much Divine prof do you have?

That's what Colman does/did, apparently, though I don't see how playing without the -50% magic mitigation from Imperil could work, except on pretty low difficulty. Or maybe it's that most monsters have significantly less than 50% base magic mitigation? I don't know the numbers either.

What difficult are you on/aiming for?

It would also be really nice to figure out the frequency of resists, so that the counter-resist stat can be factored in as well, so we can come up with more exact values of the worth of cotton piece X vs phase piece Y.

I'm aiming to do DwD @ IWBTH or higher with minimal ether tap. Or the worthwhile arenas (70-100rounds) @ PFUDOR, preferably without ether tap. That's probably not possible without 5 economizer, frugal gear, etc. but I'm trying to see where this goes.

This post has been edited by mozilla browser: Feb 27 2015, 15:34

just curious, how much Divine prof do you have?

637Divine / lv342

637Divine / lv342

i guess i'll hunt for a prof pant/robe (& a new staff) in the auctions. though, it just seems like no one is actually selling them. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

i guess i need to have 2 sets of mage gear. 1 prof set with Leg prof staff + my prof cap for BT stuff & another set with Destruction staff + all phase set for IWTBH/PF.

This post has been edited by malkatmp: Feb 27 2015, 15:41

I don't remember the math clearly but I recall that it is better to have a edb staff and more prof cloth rather than a prof staff and less prof cloth. Maybe Colman can confirm/deny this (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Just be careful of prof staves they're really expensive due to the limited market supply.
Same thing can be said about leg holy prof cloth, however, this is largely due to people throwing them away I guess?

This post has been edited by cirrux: Feb 27 2015, 16:06

I don't remember the math clearly but I recall that it is better to have a edb staff and more prof cloth rather than a prof staff and less prof cloth. Maybe Colman can confirm/deny this (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Just be careful of prof staves they're really expensive due to the limited market supply.
Same thing can be said about leg holy prof cloth, however, this is largely due to people throwing them away I guess?

i guess so, it might also be much cheaper to have 1 heavily forged staff, then have some moderately forged prof cloth and some lightly forged phase. though, iirc, Colman has a Peerless prof staff.

also, i think Destruction staffs are better than EDB staff (for elemental mage?!), because MDB increase your magic score proportionally, but EDB only increase the score by a fraction. though, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't remember the math clearly but I recall that it is better to have a edb staff and more prof cloth rather than a prof staff and less prof cloth. Maybe Colman can confirm/deny this (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

The maths have no meaning as you can never get the best combination. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
From my test result, you need 3+ phase of your element.

i guess so, it might also be much cheaper to have 1 heavily forged staff, then have some moderately forged prof cloth and some lightly forged phase. though, iirc, Colman has a Peerless prof staff.

also, i think Destruction staffs are better than EDB staff (for elemental mage?!), because MDB increase your magic score proportionally, but EDB only increase the score by a fraction. though, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Keep in mind that even for a forged destruction, it only contributes 1/3 of the total MDB, the rest comes from int, wis and staff proficiency. 1 level of archmage doesn't add 2% to your score, but a much smaller value, something like 0.7%

Anyway, at my level, in term of score contribution, 1 EDB is equivalent to 8-15 MDB, depending on what set im using, so it's not exactly insiginificant.

So as i was looking at the posts on this thread and i realised that Equipment doesn't have level listed anywhere.Is all equipment the same? For example, Is a Crude Leather Helmet of Protection bought at level 1 the same as one bought at level 200?

Also, does Power Armor gives less protection? Superlatanium weakly implied that they did.

Keep in mind that even for a forged destruction, it only contributes 1/3 of the total MDB, the rest comes from int, wis and staff proficiency. 1 level of archmage doesn't add 2% to your score, but a much smaller value, something like 0.7%

Anyway, at my level, in term of score contribution, 1 EDB is equivalent to 8-15 MDB, depending on what set im using, so it's not exactly insiginificant.

interesting. thanks for the insight.

So as i was looking at the posts on this thread and i realised that Equipment doesn't have level listed anywhere.Is all equipment the same? For example, Is a Crude Leather Helmet of Protection bought at level 1 the same as one bought at level 200?

Also, does Power Armor gives less protection? Superlatanium weakly implied that they did.

in this patch 0.81, equipment scales with your level. generally, the higher the Equipment Prefixes the better the equipment are. ie. Peerless>Legendary>Magnificent>Exquisite> Superior>Average>Fair>Crude. though, given free shop and abundant available of equipment, pretty much Superior+ (arguably Exq+) are the bare minimum.

Plate gear generally provide more protection than Power gear. though, it's possible that a Plate of Protection provide less PMI than a Power of Warding. you can read more about Equipment Ranges here.

also, equipment suffix can give you an idea about the specialty of that specific gear. Protection specialize in Physical Mitigation (PMI), Warding in magical mitigation (MMI), Slaughter in Damage (ADB), Balance in crit%&dmg. read more about them here.