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The wiki says:

But the wiki is not the most trustworthy source, and is infrequently upgraded. Are you sure about the formula? If so I can fix the info on the wiki.

Are you referring to the monster level vs power level discrepancy? I took the formula from the 0.76 patch notes, which uses the former.

Some time ago, Colman gave a different formula:

Counter resist = 50% * (prof factor-1)^1.5
Specific mitigation reduction should be the same. But I am not sure, as 10B didn't mention about its change. It was linear when it just introduced i.e.: 50% * (prof factor-1).

Not sure which is current?

Some time ago, Colman gave a different formula:
Not sure which is current?

I glanced through the patch notes from 0.76 on and didn't notice any further changes to Counter-Resist via proficiency.

However, there was a change to how proficiency affects specific mitigation in 0.77, where the proficiency factor was changed to scale exponentially to the power of 1.5. The amount of specific mitigation that can be reduced with proficiency was also increased from 25 points to 50 points in this patch. I think this is where Colman's formula comes from, but the patch notes are pretty clear about it only applying to specific mitigation.

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Specific Mitigation

- Max specific mitigation reduction from Imperil was reduced to 40 percentage points for elemental and 25 percentage points for holy/dark.

- Max specific mitigation reduction from Proficiency was increased by 25 percentage points, to 50pp.
-- The proficiency factor used here, which is linear from 0 to 1, is now scaled exponentially to the power of 1.5. For example;
-- A low factor of say 0.2 (120 prof against level 100 monster) will give a ~4.5pp decrease compared to 5pp before
-- A high factor of say 0.9 (190 prof against level 100 monster) will give a ~42.7pp decrease compared to 22.5pp before.

- Debuffs and negative stat modifiers can no longer reduce stats below 0, or reduced them further if the stat is already negative. This primarily affects specific mitigation.

Great, thanks. So, for determining the counter-resist bonus and specific mitigation reduction of magic proficiency, we use

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prof_factor = (effective_proficiency - monsterlevel) / monsterlevel, capped between 0 and 1

counter-resist bonus = 50% x prof_factor.  
* this can potentially reduce the monster's resist stat by half (10% resist => 5% resist)

specific mitigation reduction = 50% * (prof_factor ^ 1.5).  
* the effectiveness of this depends on the monster's natural specific mitigation, but it can potentially triple the spell's damage in the case of 75% to 25% specific mitigation

In comparison with Imperil, which provides up to
* 50% PMI / MMI reduction
* -40% specific mitigation reduction for elemental, and -25% for holy/dark

It seems to me that holy/dark mages should seriously consider going for the proficiency route, whereas elemental mages may opt to simply Imperil instead.

Is there any alternative way to achieve MMI reduction? Or, does that not really matter, similar to how Imperil is unnecessary when using rapiers with Penetrated Armor?

I'm trying mage (holy) for the first time and I'm trying to sort out my thoughts on how it should be played. It's a completely different game from melee. It feels quite silly being only barely able to survive Hell before I run out of spirit and die. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif) If I spend a bunch of shards and get lucky, I could increase my HP multiplier from 2.25 to 2.75 with Juggernaut on armor, but I doubt I would see a whole lot of difference. I think I need Evade instead. For high-difficulty battle series I think I'll need to buy a bunch more ability points so I can Spirit Theft. I was hoping to be able to play PF DWD for the experience since it takes ages as melee and so isn't worth it, but it looks like I'm a long way off. I was hoping that nearly Emax EDB phase would be enough to seriously damage PF monsters (even assuming no resist) but it doesn't seem like it.

I got excited for mage after seeing a screenshot of someone clearing a 9-mob PF RE in only a few turns, but it seems I need extraordinary gear and heavy forging for that... and a single Phazon requires more than a day's income. :/

Given mage survivability, it seems like one should aim for a difficulty where we can reliably oneshot at least ~80% of monsters after Imperiling them all and using T3? Otherwise, we take many hits and waste much more time/mana/spirit with Cure and less damaging T2/T1? If that is true, perhaps that's one reason why grindfest mages might prefer lower difficulty, Mozilla - is my uneducated guess. 4-turn round > 8-turn round on higher difficulty.

Innate Arcana seems significantly less useful as mage than as melee, since we get Channeling more often and consume many fewer turns per round. I was considering IA3 but now it seems unnecessary.

If I want to regain mana, then on the last (or last two) monsters alive I'm thinking I need to cast T1 until CM procs -> attack until ET procs -> repeat. But since CM's chances are static, I might as well use Elemental T1 instead of my Holy T1 due to reduced cost and quicker action speed despite the much reduced damage - similar to how melees using Focus like the last monster alive to have a whole lot of HP so more mana can be regained (while attacking and waiting for stun to proc) before the player has to fight 8 or 9 new monsters again. Then again, this sort of thing will dramatically increase time and turns required, and is probably not how anyone else plays mage. (I'm just masochistic for high-difficulty completion) If I do this perhaps I should train Elemental prof from 0 to 2/3 of my level or so for reduced costs.

It looks like the reason Imperil is used with low proficiency, and is not completely necessary with high proficiency, is because proficiency-based mitigation reduction and Imperil-mitigation reduction has a floor of 0? For Holy and Dark at least, most high PL monsters have mitigation between 45 and 60, so if maxed prof-based reduction subtracts 50 from that, Imperil will not often help much. So lazyness is not the only factor (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Given the prof_factor^1.5, it looks like proficiency has steep increasing returns (until you reach the cap), so unless you're aiming for capped proficiency, it can be mostly ignored (thus one reason why 5-phase is effective and popular).

I vaguely remember someone saying that the Godslayer title's damage bonus is bugged, and does not increase magic damage, or something like that? Is this right?

Are you referring to the monster level vs power level discrepancy? I took the formula from the 0.76 patch notes, which uses the former.

Sounds good, the formula on the wiki was added before then, so it should be fixed.

It seems to me that holy/dark mages should seriously consider going for the proficiency route, whereas elemental mages may opt to simply Imperil instead.

It's even more compelling when you consider that proficiency also improves cast speed and reduces MP cost, which are things that holy & dark need more help with than elemental.

But my instinct tells me that in the end, the thing that matters most is damage.

Is there any alternative way to achieve MMI reduction? Or, does that not really matter, similar to how Imperil is unnecessary when using rapiers with Penetrated Armor?

The only other way to reduce MMI that I can presently think of, is with the holy proc Breached Defense. It's only a 10% reduction so it's not as effective as Imperil, but holy spells do have larger ranges than Imperil. Back in the day, it was actually popular for dark mages to use holy spells as a sort of mini-Imperil, since Imperil back then could only target one monster.

It seems to me that holy/dark mages should seriously consider going for the proficiency route,

True. No one realizes the power of Kat staff of prof. Everyone bandwagons.

whereas elemental mages may opt to simply Imperil instead.

not quite true. like n125 said, counter-resist is a big part of prof. Cast speed + CR is necessary in pfudor, where mobs are unforgiving.

I was hoping that nearly Emax EDB phase would be enough to seriously damage PF monsters (even assuming no resist) but it doesn't seem like it.

Unforged Emax won't cut it in IWTBH+ diffs. Maybe forged emax, but then who forges emax?

I got excited for mage after seeing a screenshot of someone clearing a 9-mob PF RE in only a few turns, but it seems I need extraordinary gear and heavy forging for that...

Like I been saying, mage is underpowered.

I might as well use Elemental T1 instead of my Holy T1

Why don't you just play elemental? If you don't do SG arenas, it's better than dark/holy.

This post has been edited by treesloth: Feb 16 2015, 12:46

If I want to regain mana, then on the last (or last two) monsters alive I'm thinking I need to cast T1 until CM procs -> attack until ET procs -> repeat.

You could try it with Weaken instead of a T1. It's also cheap and has a fast cast speed. If you keep Silence on the monster(s) then you could keep siphoning MP out of it until it dies from your staff, which should take longer than if you were to use T1 spells.

I vaguely remember someone saying that the Godslayer title's damage bonus is bugged, and does not increase magic damage, or something like that? Is this right?

It should still be broken. I don't believe it will be fixed until the title system gets revamped. For mages the choice presently comes down to 3% Evade (Godslayer) vs. a 5-turn stun-all skill (Dovahkiin).

True. No one realizes the power of Kat staff of prof. Everyone bandwagons.

And Elementalist staffs. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) I dream of a suit made up of an Elementalist staff and all Radiant Phase. That would give high proficiency, MDM, and EDB. I think currently hito is the only one who can score well in all three parameters.

Why don't you just play elemental? If you don't do SG arenas, it's better than dark/holy.

Colman and someone on IRC recommended holy. I also saw that most monsters have moderate resistance to most elements, but not to holy/dark, and holy has the cure bonus, and is mainly worse only against magical types (which resist can deal with), so it seemed that holy was the way to go, at least to start with.

Clearly this sort of uneducated thought process was incorrect (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) What should I have been comparing instead? Elemental mana costs are lower of course, but plain spell damage is also somewhat lower, so given the other factors it didn't seem like enough.

You could try it with Weaken instead of a T1. It's also cheap and has a fast cast speed. If you keep Silence on the monster(s) then you could keep siphoning MP out of it until it dies from your staff, which should take longer than if you were to use T1 spells.

Good idea, thanks.

And Elementalist staffs. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) I dream of a suit made up of an Elementalist staff and all Radiant Phase. That would give high proficiency, MDM, and EDB. I think currently hito is the only one who can score well in all three parameters.

I believe your staff is the best wind staff in HV, save for peerless redwood/willlow. Your MDB and EDB are way higher, and you have crit. Your MDB base is 48.22? unreal (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

holy has the cure bonus, and is mainly worse only against magical types (which resist can deal with), so it seemed that holy was the way to go, at least to start with.

Clearly this sort of uneducated thought process was incorrect (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) What should I have been comparing instead? Elemental mana costs are lower of course, but plain spell damage is also somewhat lower, so given the other factors it didn't seem like enough.
Good idea, thanks.

Mage don't care about mobs' magic attacks, only physical. Is that what you meant? Also, cure bonus is overrated; at least for arenas, gfest up to BTs, and IW. I don't know about IWTBH+ gfest.

elemental > holy/dark in spell cost, cast speed, imperil. Comparing spell damage to holy/dark don't matter if you are strong enough, right? Overkill = Enough kill. though even with 780 prof, mob resist still happens and is a bitch. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


This post has been edited by treesloth: Feb 16 2015, 13:48

maging is too complicated. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Has anyone actually checked if there is indeed a cast speed bonus for high prof?
It doesn't show anything different from my full phase set from just the character screen

Has anyone actually checked if there is indeed a cast speed bonus for high prof?
It doesn't show anything different from my full phase set from just the character screen

The mechanics was described in 0.76 release notes:

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All spells now have a requirement proficiency and a cap proficiency that are used to add three bonuses. These start kicking in then proficiency is higher than the requirement, and max when they reach the cap. In this case, prof_factor below is given as (prof - req) / (cap - req), capped to be between 0 and 1.

- The duration can be increased by maximum a factor of 7 (supportive/curative spells), given as: 1 + 6 * prof_factor, or 4 (everything else), given as: 1 + 3 * prof_factor

- The cast time and mana cost can both be decreased by 25% to a factor of 0.75, given as: 1 - 0.25 * prof_factor

Since every spell has a different proficiency, cap and requirement. So I guess the proficiency bonus is not listed in the character sets screen.

Yea. I rly wanna try mage also, but prof farm is so slow. Maybe dark, because i have almost 250.
Nah. Its too slow. Specially staf.

This post has been edited by nec1986: Feb 16 2015, 17:35

But the wiki is not the most trustworthy source

Heresy!

Yea. I rly wanna try mage also, but prof farm is so slow. Maybe dark, because i have almost 250.
Nah. Its too slow. Specially staf.

That's pretty much been my experience with anything that involves leveling casting professions. Even Supportive, which basically levels itself passively thanks to hath perks, constantly sits 50 points behind my weapon/armor skills.

I thought about trying something like running the schoolgirl arenas in normal using 1h/cloth to get my armor proficiency up, but ultimately I'd still need to grind elemental, deprecating, and staff, so I'd be stuck playing on pre-hell difficulties for literally dozens of hours. A little bit of armor skill wouldn't make a dent.

Yea. I rly wanna try mage also, but prof farm is so slow. Maybe dark, because i have almost 250.
Nah. Its too slow. Specially staf.

Use spellSpam or HoverPlay or any scripts that can help auto-rotate spell. Then, play normally.
You will found your prof will hit the cap before you have find a full set of gears.

Is Last Elixir particulary useful or valuable? Just dropped from the shrine and never seen one before.

Is Last Elixir particulary useful or valuable? Just dropped from the shrine and never seen one before.

Ah, koohi no jikan. Good one
cough.. cough..

Yes, it regenerate health, mana, and spirit at once. I used it in very special circumstances, namely "ran out of other potions."

Is Last Elixir particulary useful or valuable? Just dropped from the shrine and never seen one before.

judge by yourself. basically it will restore so much MP and SP that you won't even know what to do with them. it would be very nice, but too expensive to be of actual use - people in WTB buys them for 2.5k each, which is very high of a price for a single-use restorative