[X] My Assistant

Seeing as how I'm getting close to being where I want proficiency-wise I figured I should ask.

For someone who is going to be purely a physical fighter (Not going to cast any offensive spells, only cure, haste, heartseeker buffs etc) I plan on using Niten Ichiryu as it seems to be the most effective and powerful fighting style. My question is as follows:

Would sticking with Shade be a better option then switching to full Power armor? I'm currently rocking full shade, but I've been debating switching to power armor for awhile, but not sure if it's worth it.

Heavy armor will negate your Wakizashi's attack speed bonus. Also, if you don't have very high evade (Shade) or a shield (1h), you'll probably have a lot of difficulty even surviving the higher difficulties.

The most effective melee style on high difficulties is 1h/heavy. DW/shade is somewhat doable though, so Niten/shade probably is as well.

Seeing as how I'm getting close to being where I want proficiency-wise I figured I should ask.

For someone who is going to be purely a physical fighter (Not going to cast any offensive spells, only cure, haste, heartseeker buffs etc) I plan on using Niten Ichiryu as it seems to be the most effective and powerful fighting style. My question is as follows:

Would sticking with Shade be a better option then switching to full Power armor? I'm currently rocking full shade, but I've been debating switching to power armor for awhile, but not sure if it's worth it.

i'm not quite sure about your question - most of melees are 1H heavy, only a small number still uses niten.

however you may want to consider that even pure melees use forbidden (for spirit theft) and deprecating spells (most likely drain and silence, but everyone has his own fighting style, which may implement weaken, confuse, sleep...

Heavy armor will negate your Wakizashi's attack speed bonus. Also, if you don't have very high evade (Shade) or a shield (1h), you'll probably have a lot of difficulty even surviving the higher difficulties.

yup.

DW/shade is somewhat doable though, so Niten/shade probably is as well.

i don't think so. DW can still rely on PA/stun effects natively, while niten cannot - only via special skill, the rest is BW. however our resident nitener reads quite often this thread...

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Feb 7 2015, 15:05

I got 2 slaughter from low pl. So they can bring any item, but not very often compare to monster with 10m+ price. So its huge gap and its very polarized. You wont get higher from f.e. 500pl monster, maybe only a bit, but average value gonna be a bit higher, because its already include hg materials (3-10k).

This post has been edited by nec1986: Feb 7 2015, 16:05

I thought my weak spot is bad sp/mp pot ratio, but changed and get same result. Probably its defense, wanna try a bit smaller attack amount, but with 70%+ defense and 40%+ mitg.

I'm reading
& i use niten because it's special nippon fighting style & fits certain touhou character lelelel

Twinpost

This post has been edited by Dead-ed: Feb 8 2015, 00:17

uhu. well, tbh there's another shade nitener here, but he doesn't show up too much in this thread...

For mage, how important is having proficiency close to the cap? I'm trying to figure out the right cotton vs phase ratio. Someone on IRC mentioned that the high-level mages avoid cotton altogether and use all phase, even though it would sound like that would result in little counter-resist and mitigation reduction due to proficiency. Or is it that the 1.5 exponential scaling of proficiency (staff, high level, possibly hath perk) is enough to counter PL 2250 monsters without cotton?

I've heard that mage beginners are recommended to use Focus staffs, but if I'm planning on getting Economizer 4 or 5 anyway if I get a non-focus staff, I might as well do it and get a more useful suffix like Destruction/proficiency/edb, right?

I can't say that going all-phase is mathematically better, but I've personally never bothered with cotton. I think my prof_factor is around 0.37. Outside of my Destruction staff the only proficiency-booster I have is Eminent Elementalist. I usually just pave over everything with Imperil and nuke away. I don't mind doing it that way because my clear speed is still often around 4~8 turns/round, including heals. Imperil takes care of specific mitigations, and cast speed and MP cost are naturally tilted in favor of elemental magic. The benefits of more proficiency are just not appealing to me.

Your level is probably high enough that you can forgo a Focus staff. They are recommended for new mages to help them with Magic Accuracy, but if you feel that it isn't giving you any trouble then by all means go with a staff that has a better suffix and Economizer.

For mage, how important is having proficiency close to the cap? I'm trying to figure out the right cotton vs phase ratio. Someone on IRC mentioned that the high-level mages avoid cotton altogether and use all phase, even though it would sound like that would result in little counter-resist and mitigation reduction due to proficiency. Or is it that the 1.5 exponential scaling of proficiency (staff, high level, possibly hath perk) is enough to counter PL 2250 monsters without cotton?

I've heard that mage beginners are recommended to use Focus staffs, but if I'm planning on getting Economizer 4 or 5 anyway if I get a non-focus staff, I might as well do it and get a more useful suffix like Destruction/proficiency/edb, right?

I can't say that going all-phase is mathematically better, but I've personally never bothered with cotton. I think my prof_factor is around 0.37. Outside of my Destruction staff the only proficiency-booster I have is Eminent Elementalist. I usually just pave over everything with Imperil and nuke away. I don't mind doing it that way because my clear speed is still often around 4~8 turns/round, including heals. Imperil takes care of specific mitigations, and cast speed and MP cost are naturally tilted in favor of elemental magic. The benefits of more proficiency are just not appealing to me.

Your level is probably high enough that you can forgo a Focus staff. They are recommended for new mages to help them with Magic Accuracy, but if you feel that it isn't giving you any trouble then by all means go with a staff that has a better suffix and Economizer.

It also depend on how lazy is the player. For me, I am lazy to imperil one by one. Instead, I prefer using spellSpam and keep hitting. In this case, proficiency is useful.

What do you guys think is the fastest way to get chaos tokens?

I was thinking about maging on normal arenas where you can one shot everything. What do you guys think?

What do you guys think is the fastest way to get chaos tokens?

I was thinking about maging on normal arenas where you can one shot everything. What do you guys think?

Grindfest has significantly more monsters/round than arenas (once you get to round 20+) and is apparently a very good source of tokens if you can finish rounds quickly.

For mage, how important is having proficiency close to the cap? I'm trying to figure out the right cotton vs phase ratio. Someone on IRC mentioned that the high-level mages avoid cotton altogether and use all phase, even though it would sound like that would result in little counter-resist and mitigation reduction due to proficiency. Or is it that the 1.5 exponential scaling of proficiency (staff, high level, possibly hath perk) is enough to counter PL 2250 monsters without cotton?

The ratios commonly seen are 3+2, 4+1, 5+0.

3+2 (3 phases + 2 cotton)
With this build you can do x12 GF and x20 arenas reasonably fast.
You have the highest freedom choosing a staff, because its suffix doesn't matter too much with this build. (unless you are a hardcore grindfester, in that case MDB/EDB staves are better)
This build is relatively cheap not only due to cotton, but because prof perks are not necessaily needed to make this build work.
Normally using cotton on head and hands (cap & gloves).
The effective proficiency is usually 1.8 ~ 2.0 times of the level.
Notable Lv.400+ mages using this build: Colman (holy/elec), ...

4+1
Compared with 3+2, 4+1 could yield a faster clear time even without that extra cotton piece.
Downside is that you need to forge the staff and armor and possibly obtain prof perks.
Normally using cotton on body or legs (robe & pants), yet with higher forging you can use cotton shoes as well.
The effective proficiency is usually 1.5 ~ 1.7 times of the level.
Notable Lv.400+ mages using this build: Dreamophobia (holy), ST-Ru (holy/fire), Nero-Arc (elec), jenga201 (soon tm (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)) (holy), ...

5+0
Arguably the most popular build among Lv.400+ mages.
You will inevitably see more resists from monsters compared with 3+2, but that doesn't matter too much if your magic score is extremely high.
If your goal is to do x15+ GF, 5+0 is probably better than 4+1 and 3+2, especially if you use a willow/oak staff which has built-in cr, or you've got Lv.4 penetrator on a destruction staff.
The effective proficiency is usually 1.3 ~ 1.4 times of the level.
Notable Lv.400+ mages using this build: danixxx (wind/dark/...), gc00018 (dark/elec), VriskaSerket (dark/...), wannaf (cold), treesloth (holy/dark/wind/fire), hitokiri84 (wind), n125 (wind), e-Stark (wind), holy_demon (holy/wind), frankmelody (wind), qinkin1979 (wind), december08 (holy), Kyoko Hori (wind), 千石撫子 (cold), MidNightPass (holy), Maribel Hearn (fire), ...

I've heard that mage beginners are recommended to use Focus staffs, but if I'm planning on getting Economizer 4 or 5 anyway if I get a non-focus staff, I might as well do it and get a more useful suffix like Destruction/proficiency/edb, right?

Yeah, a focus staff is only for players who can't do IW by themselves and can't afford the cost of IW services.


This post has been edited by djackallstar: Feb 8 2015, 07:48

Grindfest has significantly more monsters/round than arenas (once you get to round 20+) and is apparently a very good source of tokens if you can finish rounds quickly.

Thanks for the advice! I shall hit up some grindfest at the highest difficulty that can still be one shot.

The ratios commonly seen are 3+2, 4+1, 5+0.

3+2 (3 phases + 2 cotton)
With this build you can do x12 GF and x20 arenas reasonably fast.
You have the highest freedom choosing a staff, because its suffix doesn't matter too much with this build. (unless you are a hardcore grindfester, in that case MDB/EDB staves are better)
This build is relatively cheap not only due to cotton, but because prof perks are not necessaily needed to make this build work.
Normally using cotton on head and hands (cap & gloves).
The effective proficiency is usually 1.8 ~ 2.0 times of the level.
Notable Lv.400+ mages using this build: Colman (holy/elec), ...

FYI, I'm using 1 cotton holy (2.0 prof fact). 2 cotton cold (2.0 prof fact) and 0 cotton electric (1.2 prof factor, 8.0% count resist). (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

It is really hard to collect the desired gears to complete the ideal set. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
Especially when one is not actively farming.

This post has been edited by Colman: Feb 8 2015, 08:15

uhu. well, tbh there's another shade nitener here, but he doesn't show up too much in this thread...

... only one word comes to mind: stalker!!!

For mage, how important is having proficiency close to the cap? I'm trying to figure out the right cotton vs phase ratio. Someone on IRC mentioned that the high-level mages avoid cotton altogether and use all phase, even though it would sound like that would result in little counter-resist and mitigation reduction due to proficiency. Or is it that the 1.5 exponential scaling of proficiency (staff, high level, possibly hath perk) is enough to counter PL 2250 monsters without cotton?

I've heard that mage beginners are recommended to use Focus staffs, but if I'm planning on getting Economizer 4 or 5 anyway if I get a non-focus staff, I might as well do it and get a more useful suffix like Destruction/proficiency/edb, right?

imo, having your spell/cloth prof close to cap is very easy. though, grinding Staff prof is always a pain. it really depends on what kind of mage you wanna be (right now).
-Full phase + imperil will generally deal more damage. ie great for high difficulty runs (IWTBH/PF)
-Phase+prof (without imperil) will deal less. however, with spellspam script, you'll have more APM which is great for lower difficulty runs (Hell/Nintendo/BT). personally, i've ~2t/s with 4P hase + 1 cotton + penetrator lv5 staff with ~150% prof doing Hell/Nintendo. IWTBH will be ~1.5-1.6t/s with full cheap phase. though, even with 150% prof, I'll still get some 50% resist. more with Nintendo. also, Cotton is relative cheap & forging cotton is quite affordable.

lastly, Focus staff can be nice, especially when you get a peerless one. if not, get a decent Destruction/EDB one that you can forge AND willing to use it for the long haul. though, personally, I prefer prof gear than prof staff.

What do you guys think is the fastest way to get chaos tokens?

I was thinking about maging on normal arenas where you can one shot everything. What do you guys think?

since there's a token drop bonus for clearing Arenas, you should do daily arenas@hell. or maybe just the 2nd page. then Hellfest.

This post has been edited by malkatmp: Feb 8 2015, 10:14

since there's a token drop bonus for clearing Arenas, you should do daily arenas@hell. or maybe just the 2nd page. then Hellfest.

The chance of a token drop is higher for the higher level arenas. Sometimes those on the first page might not give you any token at all.

I can't say that going all-phase is mathematically better, but I've personally never bothered with cotton. I think my prof_factor is around 0.37. Outside of my Destruction staff the only proficiency-booster I have is Eminent Elementalist. I usually just pave over everything with Imperil and nuke away. I don't mind doing it that way because my clear speed is still often around 4~8 turns/round, including heals. Imperil takes care of specific mitigations, and cast speed and MP cost are naturally tilted in favor of elemental magic. The benefits of more proficiency are just not appealing to me.

I find myself taking... many more turns. Typical 10 Mob round:
turn1 - Cast Imperil on Mob 2. Mobs 1-3 are Imperiled.
turn2 - Cast Imperil on Mob 5. Mobs 5-6 are Imperiled.
turn3 - Cast Imperil on Mob 7. Mobs 8-9 are Imperiled.
turn4 - Cure, 'cos I've already taken a beating
At this point, I can either choose to Imperil Mobs 4,7,10. But that would waste 3 turns, and I'll get another beating in the meantime.
turn5-?? - Kill Mobs 1-3,5-6,8-9. Mobs 4,7,10 are still pretty healthy because they've been resisting away (probably had high resistance to escape the Imperil), and still have high mitigations. So now I can choose to Imperil them at the end, or just keep nuking away even though they have high resist.

How does it work for you? You must've taken 3-4 turns just to cast Imperil on everyone. Do you Imperil again if it was resisted the first time? Then, your magic score is high enough to kill everyone in another 3-4 rounds?

The ratios commonly seen are 3+2, 4+1, 5+0.

3+2 (3 phases + 2 cotton)
With this build you can do x12 GF and x20 arenas reasonably fast.
You have the highest freedom choosing a staff, because its suffix doesn't matter too much with this build. (unless you are a hardcore grindfester, in that case MDB/EDB staves are better)
This build is relatively cheap not only due to cotton, but because prof perks are not necessaily needed to make this build work.
Normally using cotton on head and hands (cap & gloves).
The effective proficiency is usually 1.8 ~ 2.0 times of the level.

4+1
Compared with 3+2, 4+1 could yield a faster clear time even without that extra cotton piece.
Downside is that you need to forge the staff and armor and possibly obtain prof perks.
Normally using cotton on body or legs (robe & pants), yet with higher forging you can use cotton shoes as well.
The effective proficiency is usually 1.5 ~ 1.7 times of the level.

5+0
Arguably the most popular build among Lv.400+ mages.
You will inevitably see more resists from monsters compared with 3+2, but that doesn't matter too much if your magic score is extremely high.
If your goal is to do x15+ GF, 5+0 is probably better than 4+1 and 3+2, especially if you use a willow/oak staff which has built-in cr, or you've got Lv.4 penetrator on a destruction staff.
The effective proficiency is usually 1.3 ~ 1.4 times of the level.

Hmm... I'm at 1.26 with just my staff and 5 phase [magic score 9166]. With 1 Mmax prof cap (unforged), it goes up to 1.48 [score 8268]. Add another Mmax prof pants (unforged), and it goes up to 1.73 [score 7227]. Not sure how much I can expect forging to take me up to. So you're right that 1 or 2 cottons can take us up to 1.5 and 1.8 respectively.

But, it seems to me that due to the formula for counter resist, 1.5 gives very little benefit, and 1.75 gives about half the benefit of 2.0 factor... By the way, is the formula on the wiki?

FYI, I'm using 1 cotton holy (2.0 prof fact). 2 cotton cold (2.0 prof fact) and 0 cotton electric (1.2 prof factor, 8.0% count resist). (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Can you please elaborate how you achieved that? It tells me whether I can dream of doing so myself.

Eg, If your 1 cotton requirement was something like Peerless heaven-sent staff + 4 penetrator + 50 forge; Lmax heaven-sent cotton + 50 forge, DW hath perk = I can think about this build after a couple of years of grinding

Even with 2 cottons, it seems pretty difficult to reach 2.0 factor.

This post has been edited by mozilla browser: Feb 8 2015, 12:04

Focus staff can be nice, especially when you get a peerless one.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Can you please elaborate how you achieved that? It tells me whether I can dream of doing so myself.

Eg, If your 1 cotton requirement was something like Peerless heaven-sent staff + 4 penetrator + 50 forge;

Yep. He has a Peerless Heaven-Sent Staff. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


BTW, My experience says that Prof Build is faster for SG runs compared to Full Phase Build (Both Build with Imperil). For regular Arena, full phase build is much faster. I don't do GF as Mage anymore, so can't say what the circumstances are there nowadays.

This post has been edited by tetron: Feb 8 2015, 11:45