[X] My Assistant

So I was finally trying to level up my armor and noticed that the last around 5 levels of IW (on IWBTH, quality 335ish piece of gear, round 55+), pretty much everything just railed me hard. Note, I'm a DW/Shade user and my SS was getting pretty torn up. Thankfully, it was only 5 rounds or so of mashing heal and and hoping I have enough mana/spirit pots to get through.

Now, I'm pretty sure that IW level 60ish (on IWBTH) or so is easier than trying to get through Hellfest (level 900+) and I've been wondering... what kinda defensive stats do you need to survive Hellfest using Shade? Or do you have to use a mix of Leather of Protection and Shade to survive (because the worst case scenario of using high evade/parry is always going to be a lot of pain compared to high PMI). What should I aim for before attempting a Hellfest in Leather/Shade?

My current stats are...

First step is probably picking up another fighting style, DW is very bad for anything else than the marathons.

I think Barrier is better for everything, but Blue Penguin seems to advocate Nimble with Light armor for some reason.

If I'm becoming quoted when a buckler of the nimble is on the table I better advocate it then.

Using the MMax block and parry of a Nimble buckler gives 22.94 block + 8.04 parry = 30.98 % to avoid a physical attack.

The MMax block of a Barrier buckler is 28.93 %.

The difference is 2.05% in favour of the Nimble buckler. However, once your parry without a shield is >25, I think the Barrier buckler becomes better.

The maths are actually different, your parry roll and block roll are separate so you cannot just sum things up.

In an ideal world where monsters have no counter-block or counter-parry:
Using the MMax barrier buckler will allow a monster hit you through your block roll (1 - 0.2893) = 71.07% of times
Using the MMax nimble buckler will allow a monster hit you through your block roll (1 - 0.2294) = 77.06% of times,
but with the nimble one you still have a parry roll that allow the monster to hit you (1 - 0.0804) = 91.96% of times from the attacks that already passed through the block roll. Therefore only (1 - 0.2294)*(1 - 0.0804) = 70.86% of attacks will hit you.

If the block roll or parry roll happens first doen't matter because of the commutatiove nature of multiplication. For the same reason the extra block from 1H prof. do not change this relation either.

In the end the difference is only 0.7107 / 0.7086 = 1% . So that's not the real reson behind nimble vs. barrier. The main reason for nimble is that monsters DO have counter-parry and counter-block, and those skills reduce your block and parry by a certain percentage. i.e. the more block/parry you have the more of it is reduced by monster counter-block/parry.

It's what Dan31 said, for optimal defense of physical attacks you shall keep your block and your parry on almost the same level as otherwise monsters will reduce the higher one by much.

Block also negates magic attacks, though, as you mentioned, most stuff is physical.

Finally, this really is important for heavy users which definitelly favour barrier over nimble. Light users on the other hand have excess of resist.

This post has been edited by blue penguin: Jan 10 2014, 05:11

Derp, I can't do math.
Your explanation makes sense! Thanks for clearing that up~~~

Edit: Now the real question is: Does anyone use Kite Shields?

This post has been edited by happy.forum: Jan 10 2014, 05:38

Edit: Now the real question is: Does anyone use Kite Shields?

I once used kite shield for its low burden and interference, and changed to tower shield for high block chance.
Though tower shield is obsolete after force shield show up with 0.77 patch, I'm very satisfied with this one even now.
Moreover I have attached to this because I've used for a long time. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(if we have x and y positive numbers and x+y = fixed value, and we want to maximize x*y, the solution is x=y).

Wouldn't it be better overall to focus on a single avoidance stat over equal distribution?
Assuming x and y are the percentage of hits you'll take, you are trying to minimize x*y, not maximize it.

Let's say you have 25% block and 25% parry
(1-0.25)(1-0.25) = 56.25% of attacks hit you

With 50% block and 0% parry
(1-0.5)(1-0.0) = 50.0% of attacks hit you.

Also, as you level a single avoidance stat, you get accelerating returns on each point gained, as the change in amount of hits taken is a reciprocal function (1 - d(x)/x).
Going from 50% to 52% in one stat is more effective than going from 25% to 26% in two stats, even though the change is two percentage points in both cases.

As far as getting more reduced by anti-avoidance : if you assume that both anti-block and anti-parry countermeasures are equal, the total amount of reduction is the same whether all your avoidance is in a single stat or equally distributed.

Its seem no one have mentioned that only blocked attack can be countered, parried attack give none. The countered monsters are mostly stunned. In addition, the really hurt magic attack can be blocked, but not parried.

edit: I have made a mistake. Parried attack can also proc counter. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

This post has been edited by Colman: Jan 10 2014, 11:29

I just hit 308 and suddenly all the monsters got exponentially stronger. Heck I even ran out of pots in IWBTH Exile, which I haven't had any problem clearing since level 280 O_o

What the hell happened, people chaos upgrade all their monsters?

I just hit 308 and suddenly all the monsters got exponentially stronger. Heck I even ran out of pots in IWBTH Exile, which I haven't had any problem clearing since level 280 O_o

What the hell happened, people chaos upgrade all their monsters?

It seems you just reach the level to encounter certain group of tough monsters (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif).
FYI, the top monsters are much stronger now than 2 months ago.

This post has been edited by Colman: Jan 10 2014, 11:29

Its seem no one have mentioned that only blocked attack can be countered, parried attack give none. The countered monsters are mostly stunned. In addition, the really hurt magic attack can be blocked, but not parried.

No, you can counter on parried attacks as well. I agree with your second point, though that may change soon because people seem to be upgrading their strongest melee pets (giants, undead, arthropods and a few mechas) non-stop, and their physical damage skills have been accounting for a lot more Cure in my recent game play.

It's a bit ridiculous if you think about how some monsters can literally siphon your SP if left unattended to, thanks to their crazy strong MP skills that they can use a lot more frequently than, say, a Celestial's SP spell. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

This post has been edited by Kagoromo: Jan 10 2014, 11:19

No, you can counter on parried attacks as well. I agree with your second point, though that may change soon because people seem to be upgrading their strongest melee pets (giants, undead, arthropods and a few mechas) non-stop, and their physical damage skills have been accounting for a lot more Cure in my recent game play.

It's a bit ridiculous if you think about how some monsters can literally siphon your SP if left unattended to, thanks to their crazy strong MP skills that they can use a lot more frequently than, say, a Celestial's SP spell. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

t feels like Melee nowadays can't do anything if they don't have some sort of stun mechanism :/

On other note, how good is 1H at clearing schoolgirls? Is it, say, as fast as DW?

t feels like Melee nowadays can't do anything if they don't have some sort of stun mechanism :/

On other note, how good is 1H at clearing schoolgirls? Is it, say, as fast as DW?

2H (estoc/longsword) can kill faster and die faster --> next GF --> loop.

DW is much faster for SG arena on PF.
On Hell, I use longsword.

No, you can counter on parried attacks as well. I agree with your second point, though that may change soon because people seem to be upgrading their strongest melee pets (giants, undead, arthropods and a few mechas) non-stop, and their physical damage skills have been accounting for a lot more Cure in my recent game play.

It's a bit ridiculous if you think about how some monsters can literally siphon your SP if left unattended to, thanks to their crazy strong MP skills that they can use a lot more frequently than, say, a Celestial's SP spell. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

As a heavy 1H players, I still find no problem with their physical attack. But the higher HP of the newly grown monsters allow the magic caster cast more spells on me. And each spell is one-shot spell in late round.

This post has been edited by Colman: Jan 10 2014, 11:43

On other note, how good is 1H at clearing schoolgirls? Is it, say, as fast as DW?

My experiences with PFUDOR SG's were horrendous to say the least. I have not touched a single marathon since months ago, after I got the Dovahkiin title from PFUDOR A Dance with Dragons. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/faint.gif)

It's what Dan31 said, for optimal defense of physical attacks you shall keep your block and your parry on almost the same level as otherwise monsters will reduce the higher one by much.

Nonononono, I was WRONG! I was doing the math as if you had to both block and parry at the same time, for some reason.

Wouldn't it be better overall to focus on a single avoidance stat over equal distribution?
Assuming x and y are the percentage of hits you'll take, you are trying to minimize x*y, not maximize it.

Let's say you have 25% block and 25% parry
(1-0.25)(1-0.25) = 56.25% of attacks hit you

With 50% block and 0% parry
(1-0.5)(1-0.0) = 50.0% of attacks hit you.

Also, as you level a single avoidance stat, you get accelerating returns on each point gained, as the change in amount of hits taken is a reciprocal function (1 - d(x)/x).
Going from 50% to 52% in one stat is more effective than going from 25% to 26% in two stats, even though the change is two percentage points in both cases.

As far as getting more reduced by anti-avoidance : if you assume that both anti-block and anti-parry countermeasures are equal, the total amount of reduction is the same whether all your avoidance is in a single stat or equally distributed.

Yes, it is just as you said. I went to bed yesterday doing the math and it hit me. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

Of course, always using barrier over parry only makes sense if barrier and nimble give block and parry respectively in equal quantity. But nimble actually gives a bit more if the equipment ranges on the wiki are accurate, so I'll have to do the math first.

This post has been edited by Dan31: Jan 10 2014, 12:15

It seems you just reach the level to encounter certain group of tough monsters (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif).
FYI, the top monsters are much stronger now than 2 months ago.

I doubt that's his main issue; I've been encountering Yuki Koudo for at least the last 70 levels on pfudor, and the last 30 or so on battletoads.

Certain players have been working vigorously to enhance their giants + arthropods (perhaps to free-ride on Yuki Koudo's strength...?), so an arthropod + giants round is much tougher than it used to be.

^ +1

I doubt that's his main issue; I've been encountering Yuki Koudo for at least the last 70 levels on pfudor, and the last 30 or so on battletoads.

Certain players have been working vigorously to enhance their giants + arthropods (perhaps to free-ride on Yuki Koudo's strength...?), so an arthropod + giants round is much tougher than it used to be.

I think he play on lower difficult. Btw, anyone know the players' level to monsters' PL relationship? I have no way to verify the equation in wiki.

Heck I even ran out of pots in IWBTH Exile

What do you spent your mana on? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I rarely had to use no more than 1 pot for any non-marathon arenas @PFUDOR even when playing without trying to conserving mana, and I use similar playstyle & equipment to yours... So I'm a bit curious on what made the difference. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

This post has been edited by buktore: Jan 10 2014, 12:35

What do you spent your mana on? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I rarely had to use no more than 1 pot for any non-marathon arenas @PFUDOR even when playing without trying to conserving mana, and I use similar playstyle & equipment to yours... So I'm a bit curious on what made the difference. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

High level Innate Arcana I think (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

What do you spent your mana on? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I rarely had to use no more than 1 pot for any non-marathon arenas @PFUDOR even when playing without trying to conserving mana, and I use similar playstyle & equipment to yours... So I'm a bit curious on what made the difference. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I think you do not need pots because you do not need to heal.
His level is 40 below your and he shouldn't have the same defense ability as yours.

This post has been edited by Colman: Jan 10 2014, 12:48