[X] My Assistant

What is this "staking" thing you keep referring to cmdct?

That you get diminishing returns from one additional multiplier/equipment added on.


....
Though it would make more sense if it was that bad rolls give can kill you, putting more at "stake",

This post has been edited by Golden Sun: Jun 19 2010, 21:59

KamuiSeph' date='Jun 19 2010, 20:52' post='724597']
What is this "staking" thing you keep referring to cmdct?

That's well explained here, although is a little outdated now.
The essential:

Equipment terms:

All percentage based stats follow multiplicative stacking. This means you get diminishing returns from each additional piece. For example, If you have a 10% hit bonus from a piece of equipment, using a weapon with a 10% bonus will increase your weapon accuracy by 9%, not 10% (more on equipment accuracy and character accuracy later in the thread). This is because the weapon grants +10% only on the remaining 90% not effected by the equipment. Your total would be 19%. If you had an additional +10% from another single piece of armor, this would add an effective 8.1% (10% of the remaining 81%). This works the same way for all percentages on equipment in the HV, each piece will have diminishing returns. Bonuses from auras are now added at full value, not using multiplicative stacking.

Edit: forgot the 'c' on stacking, bad English (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by cmdct: Jun 19 2010, 22:12

That's well explained here, although is a little outdated now.
The essential:
Edit: forgot the 'c' on stacking, bad English (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Once again, thanks xD

I got +3 to all stats, and what difference it made? Nothing I could see

Isn't this always the case with almost anything? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Evade offers the same protection than mitigation in theory (Yes you have absorption first than mitigation, but % miss also came first than evade. i.e. +20% miss means that +40% evasion only gives 0.8*0.4= 0.32%)

The same could be said for mitigation.

Your question have to be seen case to case, evasion is good, but have 3 problems than mitigation don't have:
-because is higher than mitigation, suffers more with the staking problem (bonus for each piece of equipment aren't added people usually forget that)

True. Though in practice, it's the final number that count.

-Reduce the bonus from effective % block/parry/resist. (This is a real problem for 1HS, a little for 2W/niten)

Agreed with 1-H, but I don't see why it would be trouble for other style, even for a little.

-If the hits are strong, this will make you cast cure, because of crits or bad rolls (Only with RoB or higher levels are a problem normally)

This is 1 of the reasons why I mixed my gears (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In theory the best option would be a mix of gear, but in reality, there's no good heavy gear that drops anymore, and light was made too weak, only the best kevlar are good, but it's like getting Eths, very rare.

Nope, in reality, everyone's a mage (nothing wrong with that), doesn't matter how good a heavy are, most peoples don't use it. Though if it's good, it's a good thing for collector I admitted. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

then +100 levels, stick to silk only.

I still plan to have all 3 type of equips as my Main gear indefinitely as its works well so far, unless I switch to mage, which won't going to happen. (I hope...)

Because that way the used to be overpowered heavy armour would be even more OP (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

All I heard about it were rumors (I just started playing HV on around January this year), never saw a thread indicated that it was uber godly even when I tried looking at old threads. Still, balancing the game by making things unusable is just wrong IMO.

Isn't this always the case with almost anything? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

+2% evade is noticeable...

True. Though in practice, it's the final numbers that count.

Corrected. It's always true when you're comparing similar gear i.e. cloth vs cloth or light vs light, but not always.

Agreed with 1-H, but I don't see why it would be trouble for other style, even for a little.

You can have a lot of parry with 2W/niten...

Nope, in reality, everyone's a mage (nothing wrong with that), doesn't matter how good a heavy are, most peoples don't use it. Though if it's good, it's a good thing for collector I admitted. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Ichy and Masaki are 2 examples of non-mages out here, can exist more.

All I heard about it were rumors (I just started playing HV on around January this year), never saw a thread indicated that it was uber godly even when I tried looking at old threads. Still, balancing the game by making things unusable is just wrong IMO.

Most stats were reduced by half, but put in this way, in the beginning it was very difficult to drop equipment, and the prices of bazzar it was 5x more than nowadays, so what equipment I bought for myself? (I was a lurker in those days) a full set of crude/fair heavy plate, my mainhand was an crude axe of the ox, and my shield was a totally crap (don't remember what % block it had, but it was low I assure you), burden +100, interference about the same is suppose.
Despite this I could clear all arenas without any problem, spending only a few items mostly health ones.
See how OP were heavy?

You can have a lot of parry with 2W/niten...

When I talk about problem of evade with 1-H, what I meant was that, the more evade you have, the less chance of you to block, which in turn, less counter (very noticeable with large mob) and you have to spend more time killing and in fact, you might actually take more damages, and this is the only problem I could see if you have high evade.

The problem you said was never a problem for other style (and for 1-H too if there's no counter), adding more evade will never make you more likely to get hit. Less parry / resist? Yes. Getting hit more? No.

Most stats were reduced by half
...
interference about the same is suppose

If this is true, of course it would OP... and I heard that in the past, bonus from gears are add, not multiply, like the way they do now too. I could easily imagine how OP it is if this is true.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif) ......

I was going to rant (or you could say, constructive criticism) about how Ten balance the game.. then again, I don't think that currently Ten want the game to be balance so rant about it would be pointless. As of now, it's clearly meant to be play as mage (which I believed he has a good reason for that).

I knew this before I decided to stick with melee as well, so if I'm going to rant, it's not for my own gain, it's just that... As a gamer, seeing how broken things are kinda get on my nerve sometime... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

When I talk about problem of evade with 1-H, what I meant was that, the more evade you have, the less chance of you to block, which in turn, less counter (very noticeable with large mob) and you have to spend more time killing and in fact, you might actually take more damages, and this is the only problem I could see if you have high evade.

That's more a problem between fighting styles than the evade itself.

The problem you said was never a problem for other style (and for 1-H too if there's no counter), adding more evade will never make you more likely to get hit. Less parry / resist? Yes. Getting hit more? No.

You're still need to level up more I suppose, with 1HS, SV only grants me more ~+2% avoidance, making SV a worthless spell.

If this is true, of course it would OP... and I heard that in the past, bonus from gears are add, not multiply, like the way they do now too. I could easily imagine how OP it is if this is true.

I also forgot that (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I was going to rant (or you could say, constructive criticism) about how Ten balance the game.. then again, I don't think that currently Ten want the game to be balance so rant about it would be pointless. As of now, it's clearly meant to be play as mage (which I believed he has a good reason for that).

No, the styles are more balanced than you think, cmal can do the same things Boggyb can, only EoD became a problem, but that's due to infinity MP maging can bring.
The reason most people maging it's because is a lot faster and cheaper that way. (You'll only need all tiers of fire/elec, 1 of cold, and holy, and at level 180, 1 tier of wind)

I knew this before I decided to stick with melee as well, so if I'm going to rant, it's not for my own gain, it's just that... As a gamer, seeing how broken things are kinda get on my nerve sometime...

I can clear sealed power without items now (sometimes, not a 100% thing), so it's not so ineffective vs maging, and considering I don't possess any OC bonus, and I was 1HS...

No, the styles are more balanced than you think

Do you seriously think so? come on... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Mage have infinite mana, basically make it immortal as long as you have sp, how more broken could it be? You can't kidding yourself saying they're balanced. Also, I don't remember cmal do 1000+ round grindfest either (it won't happen, I will suck his cock if he do)

I have to stress that I'm not here to complain that melee sucks , I just say that the game clearly favor mage and that's what most people play. You can't argue with that..

BTW, I stick to melee simply because it IS suck*.. why would I complain about it? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I do this in any game I play as well (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

PS. Darn it Ten, fix the 2-H bug before you bored with HV, will ya?



** Relatively to mage.

This post has been edited by buktore: Jun 20 2010, 14:40

Do you seriously think so? come on... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Mage have infinite mana, basically make it immortal as long as you have sp, how more broken could it be? You can't kidding yourself saying they're balanced. Also, I don't remember cmal do 1000+ round grindfest either (it won't happen, I will suck his cock if he do)

I have to stress that I'm not here to complain that melee sucks , I just say that the game clearly favor mage and that's what most people play. You can't argue with that..

BTW, I stick to melee simply because it IS suck*.. why would I complain about it? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I do this in any game I play as well (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

PS. Darn it Ten, fix the 2-H bug before you bored with HV, will ya?
** Relatively to mage.

Most people play melee.
The fact that mages are favored isn't necessarily true. We don't have infinite mana and sp supplies. When we run out, we die.
Melee isn't supposed to be good at grindfest in the first place. They're good for cakefest or item world. THere's also the fact that tenb probably values strategic input rather than mindless spamming.

Do you seriously think so? come on... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Yes.

Mage have infinite mana, basically make it immortal as long as you have sp, how more broken could it be? You can't kidding yourself saying they're balanced. Also, I don't remember cmal do 1000+ round grindfest either (it won't happen, I will suck his cock if he do)

I have to stress that I'm not here to complain that melee sucks , I just say that the game clearly favor mage and that's what most people play. You can't argue with that..

BTW, I stick to melee simply because it IS suck*.. why would I complain about it? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I do this in any game I play as well (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

PS. Darn it Ten, fix the 2-H bug before you bored with HV, will ya?
** Relatively to mage.

1-No, and 2nd melee can have infinite MP as well, and finally the previous record was Sayo's cakefest with 2H +1000 rounds, although the rules were changed since them.

2-

It's not going to happen. If it did, it likely wouldn't be fair. Up until The Trio and the Tree, cmal and I were functionally equal in power. (As evidenced by the fact we were both beating arenas without items). If melee is made more powerful, things will swing towards melee. I don't even think that beating bosses/legendaries will be made easier. If that is to be attempted, it will likely be done by allowing people to switch equipment sets mid-combat which would allow someone to switch to a set that is more effective in combating bosses/legendaries. (Likely switching from Niten to DW).

I agree. What I'm betting on for The Next Big Thing are Skills. Something that'll give both classes some new toys to play with and give us more variety in builds, but at the same time, giving us non-AoE players something with the kick to hit high-value targets harder. We won't be able to clear a round in two turns, but we'll at least be able to shave a few turns off killing a Legendary. And TBH, I'm not really sure switching would matter that much. DW vs Niten wouldn't make much difference fighting small groups of shit mobs -- its the rounds with the Legendaries where things start to get annoying.

When you have enough damage control per round, while recovering the MP spent via 2nd winds/mana gems, you'll be invincible on the general arenas, for both fighting styles.
Most people aren't aware but the MP spells cost are based on % current level, and 2nd winds/mana gems/mana restoratives on base MP, which grows faster than level, so spells become cheaper the more you level up.
another thing that enters is proficiency, which also makes supportive/deprecating last longer, so even more cheap they become.
cmal can't beat EoD with current rules, but perhaps on +300 levels he can beat it.


3-I only trade for mage because of speed, like most of the ones who switch, clearing sealed power would take me 1 hour in melee...

4-That only will happen on the next release, calm down.

Melee isn't supposed to be good at grindfest in the first place. They're good for cakefest or item world. THere's also the fact that tenb probably values strategic input rather than mindless spamming.

No, that's not it, the reason why maging is OP in Fest/IW is because clearing rounds in 1-turn, saving from the damage, but that only true for cake/normal and maybe later levels with very very good gear, hard.
I'm not sure melee vs mage on +heroic would be favor to mages.

Doing +1000 rounds isn't better than 5x200 rounds , it's only a quest thing, like clearing FSM without items.

Most people play melee.

How do you back this up?

"Passer by" players, who probably do melee for simplicity and play a few time aren't count.

We don't have infinite mana and sp supplies. When we run out, we die.

They do have infinite mana. you didn't know?

Melee isn't supposed to be good at grindfest in the first place. They're good for cakefest or item world.

This is nonsense, everything melee could do, mage can do better.

THere's also the fact that tenb probably values strategic input rather than mindless spamming.

What I believed (the good reason I mentioned before) why mage are favor (could be completely wrong) is that mage put less load on the game server than melee, less work to code for new skill, less bot, people complain less, ETC

I could probably tell more if I have the time.

EDIT:

@ cmdct

Arena and griendfest are not the same, in fest, mob's hit harder as you go (you know that, don't you?) I never saw what sayo did, but you said yourself that's the rule changed (whatever that is)

This post has been edited by buktore: Jun 20 2010, 15:43

and 2nd melee can have infinite MP as well,

How is this possible? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

3-I only trade for mage because of speed, like most of the ones who switch, clearing sealed power would take me 1 hour in melee...

It does not take that long. Keep Regen 2 active and you can just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 return your way up to the Boss battle.
Only gem usage will slow you down. (so much extra clicking)

Another question!

I just hit 80 and I'm thinking about going against Konata.

The thing is, I don't know how much HP she has.

I'm thinking of grabbing a soul stone, bubble gum, last elixir and 5 health elixirs with me. That should mean that for about 60 turns the potions would negate all the dmg.

But would I be able to kill her in 60 turns? (I doubt that) but I'm thinking I could last 110 or so rounds if my evade does good and she doesn't use too many spirit/magical attacks.

What do you guys think? Should I try it? or should I wait for the silence skill?

KamuiSeph' date='Jun 20 2010, 15:45' post='725265']
Another question!

I just hit 80 and I'm thinking about going against Konata.

The thing is, I don't know how much HP she has.

I'm thinking of grabbing a soul stone, bubble gum, last elixir and 5 health elixirs with me. That should mean that for about 60 turns the potions would negate all the dmg.

But would I be able to kill her in 60 turns? (I doubt that) but I'm thinking I could last 110 or so rounds if my evade does good and she doesn't use too many spirit/magical attacks.

What do you guys think? Should I try it? or should I wait for the silence skill?

She will use just one spirit attack and you will drop dead (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Better read this before you challenge her.

This is nonsense, everything melee could do, mage can do better.

That's not true, read my post again.

What I believed (the good reason I mentioned before) why mage are favor (could be completely wrong) is that mage put less load on the game server than melee, less work to code for new skill, less bot, people complain less, ETC

now this is nonsense, besides it's better in Tenboro's point for melee being better: More time you waste, less credits you make.

@ cmdct

Arena and griendfest are not the same, in fest, mob's hit harder as you go (you know that, don't you?) I never saw what sayo did, but you said yourself that's the rule changed (whatever that is)

Ok I'll explain HV history's them, GrindFest was like arena, so it was possible to grind forever, and make lots and lots of credits (gillian is an example of that), to avoid this Fest was changed to mobs hitting in the first round with less 50% power, and increasing 1% per round, that way the endless grinding was over, except for maging for the reasons I posted before. Despite of this, there was still people doing 80k credits per day only on Fest, so the 3000C cap was introduced, then it appeared IW with the same format, but much easier than fest because of most people difficulty to doing it.

How is this possible? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I explain that above, but ET can give an advantage since you recover MP, however this is mostly in 1 to 1 situation like RoB enemies, if you have more mobs, trying to get ET is asking for trouble, since in an ideal situation, you'll need 2 turns minimum to recover MP, and that means you're gonna get hit, if the damage taken, make you cast cure, you're actually lost MP, supportive/curative spell turns, and time. In later grind rounds, it become from almost certain death to certain death. If you saw my last Fest record I posted today, I had a Dalek in 479 round, if I tried to get ET I would be killed in the spot.

It does not take that long. Keep Regen 2 active and you can just 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 return your way up to the Boss battle.
Only gem usage will slow you down. (so much extra clicking)

Ichy I know that but it's a physic matter, my laptop and IP service aren't really the best, so I waste 1 hour to clear 100 rounds (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

What advantages would a grindfest offer over an Item World ? I use a Fine Platinum Shortsword of Slaughter at Lv 72, or an Average Dragonhide Breastplate of Protection at LV 51.

I'm pulling out of the melee mage debate.

She will use just one spirit attack and you will drop dead

Agreed. I had all hp tanks and end with my level. Bewildered Kotana hit me for more than 120% of my hp.

The thing is, I don't know how much HP she has.

Around 35k hp at your level.

What advantages would a grindfest offer over an Item World ? I use a Fine Platinum Shortsword of Slaughter at Lv 72, or an Average Dragonhide Breastplate of Protection at LV 51.

Grindfest gives you credits. Doesn't make you level up as fast.

This post has been edited by Golden Sun: Jun 20 2010, 16:25

Interesting tidbit:
When I run my 1HS build through IW to level an equip, I cast Thunderstorm twice to grind profs. I can clear the round in half the time because things that don't die from the Thunderstorms can be one-shot with a normal attack or a Counter. This is with a melee-centric equip loadout, as well.

I still think Counter should be switched to Parry-triggered and Block's proc should be a 1-turn Stun with minor Crushing damage.

@ cmdct

What are you trying to prove, really... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

melee have infinite mana? fight IPU using melee without using mana restoration then. This is so broken even boggy (a mage) think the same.

You trying to said about the wind which is about chance and luck... What? I'm so tired of this I don't even want to talk about this anymore..

You said about ET sucks elsewhere, this doesn't dismiss the fact that mage still have a way to have infinite mana.

--------------------------

I'm tired of this mess... no matter how people try to bend reality; Fact: Mage IS better. Just accept it. If for one day melee suddenly became better than mage, I won't going to waste my time saying otherwise, It won't make me any happier.

I only trade for mage because of speed, like most of the ones who switch, clearing sealed power would take me 1 hour in melee...

So its agreed that mages are far more efficient than melee.

Doing +1000 rounds isn't better than 5x200 rounds , it's only a quest thing, like clearing FSM without items.

Actually when you can do +1000 rounds chances are you can also do 5x200 just much faster.

now this is nonsense, besides it's better in Tenboro's point for melee being better: More time you waste, less credits you make.

What is nonsense?, buktore's argument is completely valid. The only advantage of melee is that you can play it braindead. Otherwise maging is far more efficient and effective. Where is the balance Police! Should roll back to the non-nerfed heavy armor days since they introduced the credits cap and increasing monster damage.

@cmal

how many rounds can you take in an battlefields superior+ IW?

This post has been edited by kyouri: Jun 20 2010, 17:35