[X] My Assistant

While it's an obvious conclusion when there is only 1 opponent monster, even when there are maybe 2~4 opponent monsters, DW club still falls into that category of both best offense and best defense. Your club targeting style can also play a role with multiple monsters. After 5+ monster mobs then rapier + wakizashi is clearly the best defensive DW.

(◕‿◕) okay. I have a question! ٩(◕‿◕)۶

IW still beats my mage up... When you start forging your set it becomes comfortable to do IW or it will always keep itself somewhat hard requiring too much healing?

yes, when your set is highly forged, you don't need scrolls anymore for the last rounds of IW. Until that day, use scrolls for the last 25 rounds. And infusion, of course.

because of the particular way 1H is implehemented in this game. see Cryo's post for more details. but yep, it's sort of an oddity.
also, it's not like 2H has no viability. sickentide displayed it quite recently. it's most that for such a build to work, it may require particular conditions which confine it to the rank of an oddity, rather than a mainstream style.

For the context of a new player lacking the funds and gear Sickentide has access to, I'd say the "popular" choice of putting the longsword down in favor of the rapier and shield is overall the best advice.

Top-end agile/savage shade of shadowdancer/fleet are "expensive." Roughly on par in price with good power armor, from observing auctions. Often they spike up into the ~1m range. This is prohibitively expensive for a new player who hasn't even unlocked DWD. Low-end shade armor just doesn't really get put on the market at all. Super and Kedama won't even bother putting shade armor of Negation with ~30% ADB, because they hardly ever draw up a bid for 50k.

Good quality 2-handers also have a really bizarre market presence: if they're top-tier, they're expensive. If they're not top-tier, they're trash and bazaar'd. If you're lucky, you'll find something mid-tier and useable in Decondolite's shop and/or FreeShop.

In contrast, popular stuff will be more of a presence on the market. Rapiers well below top-tier will still wind up in auctions because more people are buying them. Power armor of various grades will show up because people will often buy them.

I highly recommend Imperil+BW instead of PA. BW is unpopular mostly because people don't know how to play it correctly.

Well, I would argue there is a lot more overall going to that mentality than merely "don't know how to play."

I chose "popular" and "unpopular" in my advice not "viable/unviable" or "good/bad" for a reason. Other styles, like 2h, or other weapons, like shortsword, may well be incredibly good. But the bulk of the advice, particularly from the wiki, has clearly shaped the community's opinions.

Add to that, most players get themselves rather locked into certain choices. It takes a lot of resources to get your main weapon(s) and armor. From collecting the base pieces that are good to IW10 and forging. While it might be easy to get your hands on a very powerful shortsword, because they're unpopular, many people would question the decision to upgrade one, when it appears nearly all the advice says, "get a good rapier." The resources spent trying out a shortsword could be spent getting an even better rapier/power armor for example.

There are also a lot of players who have a language barrier. The wiki is written in English, and I can only imagine how well it translates to Chinese/Portuguese/etc. A concept like "get a rapier, it's good" is pretty easy to convey across translation I imagine. "Rapiers are good, but shortswords can be good, and here are some considerations on how you'd make the most of each" might be harder to convey through translation.

You have some players like, hc br who have really informative guides on the game, written in Chinese. I imagine that for a Chinese-only player, the way they get their advice and information on how best to play the game differs from mine and yours. The wiki and Ask the Experts thread are in English and Google Translate may be of some value, but then you have this player with all this advice in your own language. Maybe hc br gives great advice, or maybe he takes the "lazy" approach and says "get a rapier, it's good." If the latter, then you have a lot of Chinese players spending their credits like everyone else, but wanting good rapiers and entirely ignoring shortswords.

So, overall, there is a lot of miscommunication going on I feel. The most popular stuff is popular largely because a) it works (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) the more experienced users have tried it, and have more experience with it, and advise others to use it, and c) the absence of advice for other options gives the impression that it either won't work, won't work as well, or will be too hard or expensive to do compared to the popular route.

Complicate that with old/outdate/incorrect/opinion-based advice rather than facts and testing. And all for a game which is mostly easy, so not much motivation exists to go for the truth.

But the bulk of the advice, particularly from the wiki, has clearly shaped the community's opinions.

the other way around, actually. wiki has been modified to reflect players' opinions on the playstyles. because no matter what one may think, wiki is written by players who're trying to get a glimpse of the game (like me and you) and usually something is written only when it has been tested/discussed enough. or a reliable source has been provided.
personally i tend to trust Tenb's patch logs and sssss's data repositories, when they aren't level-dependant.

There are also a lot of players who have a language barrier. The wiki is written in English, and I can only imagine how well it translates to Chinese/Portuguese/etc.

i'm sorry for how rude i may appear here, but this is a problem of ours only until a certain extent. all over the world English is accepted as sort of an exchange language - and as per forum rules, we have to use at least that. this means that if meanwhile some other translation appears, then all the better.
but as users seeking for help in the forum or on wiki are part of a community, they should do a bit of effort and behave as such.


and btw, there are some localized versions and suggestions here and there. at times even outside of this site - this is particularly true for Chinese subcommunity.

You have some players like, hc br who have really informative guides on the game, written in Chinese.

the drawback is that hc br's WTS is sort of an extension of the Chinese thread. if i needed to read something in there for whatever reason, i'd need to call for a Chinese speaker and waiting for him/her/it to translate.
i'd like to keep such number of istances as low as possible, since it's me (and noni) who eventually have to moderate it - even if we don't know how to read it.
another problem is that if hc br went AFK, nobody would update his guides anymore. so people would continue to read potentially outdated infos. on the other hand, with a centralized, mono-language wiki we will have someone reporting mistakes, sooner or later.

So, overall, there is a lot of miscommunication going on I feel. The most popular stuff is popular largely because
a. it works
b. the more experienced users have tried it, and have more experience with it, and advise others to use it, and
c. the absence of advice for other options gives the impression that it either won't work, won't work as well, or will be too hard or expensive to do compared to the popular route.

i'd like to remind you another of the suggestion i give out to everyone who brings up this topic: what we suggest are only the most tested builds.

do we lack feedbacks about how the various builds perform? hell, yes! i mean, not even admin knows how, saying, Waki + Club performs in this meta, so according to the little infos we have we can only assume from math that it'd work better if it was Club + Waki at the very least because generally weapons with high ADB go on mainhand and weapons with high parry on offhand.
if people want to be of any help, please try a setup, build a bit of datas and put them up to discussion. in the worst case they will be pointed out their assumptions are wrong so the datas may be meaningless.

Complicate that with old/outdate/incorrect/opinion-based advice rather than facts and testing.

as i already said (today!) wiki is big and we cannot possibly cover all of it. not even wiki admins can, and they have way more tools than what me and you have.
currently we listen to people reporting what feels odd, speak about it to avoid for a mere opinion to be raised to universal suggestion and eventually fix it. of course, some of these are bypassed (ie: current version doesn't need to be discussed). if someone has a better idea to optimize the process or wants to read all the pages and report all the mistakes/imprecisions, i'm all ears. eyes. whatever...

I believe it is a good thing that some miscommunication due to language exists. It allows for different communities to develop who have different biases and opinions on what is good. Not everything we talk about here is fully agreed upon (and that is fine). For example some people here only like Protection and Juggernaut armors, while others here agree that Warding and Capacitor have their uses. Some people want to soulfuse everything and some people want to avoid soulfuse.

Just in case we are all mistaken about something, it helps that there are other language communities out there who understand properly, and vice versa.

Too much fighting ヾ( ￣O￣)ツ for something simple to fix

If X section of the wiki is wrong, or someone think that it is wrong, why not create a new thread, the "friendly ヽ(∀° )人( °∀)ノ and informative wiki revision discussion" to rewrite the text?

A new text can be made and edited to fit niceness standards (＠＾◡＾) and when it is done it can be presented to the proper EHWiki thread so someone with the editing powers can give the yes/no and if it receive a yes he copy+paste over the old text ....φ(・∀・*)

Add/fix information, allow whoever is not satisfied with the current standard to create/give input/discuss information and gives (I suppose the edition is kinda similar to other wiki websites?) almost no major work to the editor as it would be an entire subsection at once ( ^▽^)ψ__ instead of tiny little bits of info at a time (unlike the equipment range findings which must be a pain...), reduces or at least deflects the disharmony into another thread.

I'd certainly like to contribute to the wiki and general knowledge more than I already do, but I lack time for that.
It's been several weeks already that I promized I'd build an Excel to simulate the damage output against monsters and calculate the exact primary attributes of schoolgirls, yet today I still haven't even started.

I do have the edit rights on the wiki, and let me tell you that sometimes I feel shame when I have to correct/write info regarding some simple stuff that is widely assumed, yet no one never actually write it. Last time I had to write the actual buff of a staff's spellweaver potency level, even though I'm not mage (yet).

So be assured that there do are players who take a particulr inteest regarding what's written in the wiki. And we do talk sometimes about this or that page that is biased/obsolete/needs to be redone entirely. Except that we don't always have the time to actually do the damn job.

the other way around, actually. wiki has been modified to reflect players' opinions on the playstyles. because no matter what one may think, wiki is written by players who're trying to get a glimpse of the game (like me and you) and usually something is written only when it has been tested/discussed enough. or a reliable source has been provided.
personally i tend to trust Tenb's patch logs and sssss's data repositories, when they aren't level-dependant.
i'd like to remind you another of the suggestion i give out to everyone who brings up this topic: what we suggest are only the most tested builds.

The wiki is better than nothing. But it does often come up that a new player says, "the wiki says this (wrong thing) and it confuses me." I am not criticizing the wiki maintaining team, I am just pointing out an observation. You don't need to defend it every time this observation is necessary to the conversation.

i'm sorry for how rude i may appear here, but this is a problem of ours only until a certain extent. all over the world English is accepted as sort of an exchange language - and as per forum rules, we have to use at least that. this means that if meanwhile some other translation appears, then all the better.
but as users seeking for help in the forum or on wiki are part of a community, they should do a bit of effort and behave as such.
and btw, there are some localized versions and suggestions here and there. at times even outside of this site - this is particularly true for Chinese subcommunity.
the drawback is that hc br's WTS is sort of an extension of the Chinese thread. if i needed to read something in there for whatever reason, i'd need to call for a Chinese speaker and waiting for him/her/it to translate.
i'd like to keep such number of istances as low as possible, since it's me (and noni) who eventually have to moderate it - even if we don't know how to read it.
another problem is that if hc br went AFK, nobody would update his guides anymore. so people would continue to read potentially outdated infos. on the other hand, with a centralized, mono-language wiki we will have someone reporting mistakes, sooner or later.

I'm well aware of the problems that other languages pose to moderation. I may not be a moderator here but I have been one in several other communities over the years. None of that is to the point I was making.

Decondolite brought up an observation on the community. He listed one factor to it, and how that factor affects people's behaviors and popularity of gear. I merely suggest other factors. He isn't wrong, but there is more to it than the one factor.

The fragmentation of information caused by the language barrier is a factor. Just as it creates issues for you as a moderator, it creates issues for Chinese/etc. players who find the information they get less well maintained, less than easy to understand, and various other issues.

"They ought to learn English and join the English side of the community" is irrelevant to the topic. You may be right. You may be wrong. Doesn't matter, as there is clearly a sub-community for at least one group of people due to language. I would not be surprised if other such sub-communities exist for other languages. Regardless of what they should or shouldn't do, this is how things are, and this is an observation on one impact that situation creates. They exist, whether or not this is a good thing, and they participate with their credits in the market. They impact the popularity and sellability of things.

That is also creates an impact on efforts to moderate the overall community is irrelevant to how popular shortswords and rapiers are.

This post has been edited by Cryosite: Dec 14 2017, 01:46

Except that we don't always have the time to actually do the damn job.

Working on this kind of thing is too time consuming and people might not have enough time ヾ(`ヘ´)ﾉﾞ to fix it.

That is why I suggested that you make a separate discussion over a topic, rewrite the whole text of a section, and when it is ready, send it to the EHWiki thread. ┐(︶▽︶)┌ Then it is just a matter of whoever can edit the wiki approve, or not approve and resend the text back for new edition, and if 'OK' to copy+paste over the last version.

It also could work to bigger projects, like statistic data, whenever there is the need or demand for that...

If X section of the wiki is wrong, or someone think that it is wrong, why not create a new thread, the "friendly ヽ(∀° )人( °∀)ノ and informative wiki revision discussion" to rewrite the text?

it already exists: https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showtopic=47834

The fragmentation of information caused by the language barrier is a factor. Just as it creates issues for you as a moderator, it creates issues for Chinese/etc. players who find the information they get less well maintained, less than easy to understand, and various other issues.

the fact is that we cannot grant support to other languages. as i pointed out, there's plenty of English speakers here, both native and non-native. what about the other languages? or better, what about the other translators? can we be sure they will be around for said amount of time or at least there will be a renewal on a certain subcommunity which is enough to grant a certain degree of updates?
at this point i prefer not to fragmentate translators' efforts and to keep all of them on the main wiki.

it's not laziness, arrogance or whatever else. it's simply honesty towards a certain fraction of the userbase.


and please read again what i wrote: i basically stated we cannot check the whole thing and invited users to help us. because - as decon said - many users have wiki edit rights, and after a thing has been discussed enough there's the chance that it'll be edited sooner or later.

it already exists: [url=https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showtopic=47834]https://forums.e-hentai.org

Yes, the EHWiki thread. (´• ω •`)
Would it be fine to fill its pages with discussion about Shortsword vs Rapier against RoB bosses? It might take a lot of space (          ´• ω •`          )

it already exists: https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?showtopic=47834
the fact is that we cannot grant support to other languages.

it's not laziness, arrogance or whatever else. it's simply honesty towards a certain fraction of the userbase.
and please read again what i wrote:

And please read what I wrote.

Nothing I said was "the wiki needs to do better." or "the wiki should do something differently." It was not a criticism of the wiki, the maintainers of the wiki, or how the wiki is updated. I am well aware it is a) volunteer work and b) a lot of work.

None of that is relevant to the topic. Nobody is saying, "the Chinese deserve better help/information" or anything like that.

Stop reading into things. No one is calling anyone arrogant or lazy.

Stop being defensive because nobody is attacking anyone.

This post has been edited by Cryosite: Dec 14 2017, 02:45

Chill dudes. Take one day break, yeah?
Anyway,

what's the cost of upgrading a phase piece halfway to full? Is paying 25-50m for a single piece justifiable? I just want to do SG arenas and not get bored due the long time it need to be cleared.

Fire mages, what's your clear time with SG3 PF? How much forge required to get there?

what's the cost of upgrading a phase piece halfway to full? Is paying 25-50m for a single piece justifiable? I just want to do SG arenas and not get bored due the long time it need to be cleared.

16M according to cost calculator (a lot was rounded up and overestimated, could be lower if you buy things cheap)
5M phazon
1.6M each for INT and WIS
1.3M for spell damage
1.3M for resist
1.5M for evade
2M for physical mitigation
1.4M for magical mitigation

Being a cheap and poor doge, I only forge my spell damage and evade to whatever materials I have. I clear DwD in around 15 min.

Fire mages, what's your clear time with SG3 PF? How much forge required to get there?

Dunno, I don't burn, I coolly f r e e z e

Chill dudes. Take one day break, yeah?
Anyway,

what's the cost of upgrading a phase piece halfway to full? Is paying 25-50m for a single piece justifiable? I just want to do SG arenas and not get bored due the long time it need to be cleared.

Fire mages, what's your clear time with SG3 PF? How much forge required to get there?

Cold: SG3 PF is 12-13min with forge EDB to 50 on all phases, plus one radiant forged to 50 on MDB as well. Justifiable? Well, if you have the credits why not?

Cold: SG3 PF is 12-13min with forge EDB to 50 on all phases, plus one radiant forged to 50 on MDB as well. Justifiable? Well, if you have the credits why not?

What is SG3?

What is SG3?

Probably DwD (third schoolgirl arena).

After what PL , it is economical to use Happy pills instead of feeding them crystals?
considering 1 happy pill cost 1k and
1 crystal pack(12k crystals) cost 35k
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

It's not a matter of PL, but a matter of morale/credits.
Feel free to do the calculation.

After what PL , it is economical to use Happy pills instead of feeding them crystals?
considering 1 happy pill cost 1k and
1 crystal pack(12k crystals) cost 35k
(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

See this post.