[X] My Assistant

waki + rapier is much more parry, and parry is damage on all the monsters. Axe hits just one. I'd go rapier.

How is parry damage for a DW build? It doesn't have counterattack like 1h.

exactly. only way i can find for a waki of balance to bring more damage is to boost crits. but still, since wakis of balance have the same crit range of whatever other weapon, one may want to go with, saying, shortswords of balance, if he already has enough evade/parry.

or also club of slaughter + rapier of balance (which should allow to reach 100% offhand strike anyways), since clubs and rapiers of non-balance have the same crit chance range

Balance suffix on DW is mainly to bring offhand strike to 100% instead of ~90%, plus some extra crit. I didn't think too much about that blurb on the wiki. While not strictly true for players of medium to high level, it seemed that section was focusing on very low level players who will usually want to go rapier+wakizashi (although club+wakizashi or club+rapier is also good on low level players).

Now that DW and other styles like 2H or Niten been demonstrated to be powerful even at higher levels post-0.85 maybe that whole "advice" section could be reworked. I think it fine for now though, because 0.85 is still somewhat recent and who knows how the game could change in the future.

makes sens (￣ω￣)
but if i cloud axe you a question (＠＾◡＾) it woulds be still better for school girl bullying no?

If you're the 1% rich, maybe. The godly axe users I've seen had just as godly gear in every other slot, and if you're using skills you don't need axes to kill sgs in one hit. I can do it with stanced frenzy on pfudor if I get lucky rolls and they all hit one target, and I've never use more than the first five forge upgrades. The axe guys just used normal hits and spirit stance with power gear, but I'm pretty sure that was before pdufor got added.

Goes without saying that 1H axe is less than ideal (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

it's probably the rapier's combination of high parry and penetrated armor that makes this strong offensively.

But a non-rapiers X damage * 0.5ish mit is at best equal to a rapier's 0.5X damage with zero mit. Granted my best rapier actually does deal half the damage of my non-rapiers (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) , but even then you'd have to get three crits in a row to get all three stacks, IF they don't parry. Meanwhile the club user could always imperil once and get two stacks on three targets if they aren't using stance. It's just hard to see why rapier gets the top pick as mainhand.

So the wiki says "Rapier of Slaughter + Wakizashi of Balance - The most offensive DW combo."
Does rapier really beat club considering stunned enemies can't parry? They also can't evade, but that's a moot point with 200ac. Or do you need a godly rapier before it starts to come ahead?

DW: Rapier in your main hand for damage and Wakizashi in your offhand for the high parry chance. Preferably with "of Slaughter" suffix for main hand weapon and "of Nimble" suffix for offhand weapon. Other viable combinations include:
Club+Rapier
Club of Slaughter + Rapier of Balance - Good offensive combination but lacks defense.
Rapier+Wakizashi
Rapier of Slaughter + Wakizashi of Nimble / of Swiftness - Plays closer to 1H (less healing used). High Parry due to DW's Parry bonus. Good for Grindfest.
Rapier of Slaughter + Wakizashi of Balance - The most offensive DW combo.
Rapier of Nimble + Wakizashi of Nimble - The most defensive DW combo. Less damage due to low ADB.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Also, this wiki entry is... lulzy.

So, the default assumption here is that you'll be playing with Rapier and Wakizashi. Reason being: Penetrated Armor from Rapier and overall best weapon in the game by most peoples' opinions. Pair with Wakizashi to get two different procs, high attack speed and parry.

The entry then goes on to explore various suffixes within that assumption. "Slaughter+Balance" is the most offensive Rapier+Wakizashi DW combo, not the most offensive/damaging combo of all weapon types. Notice that after briefly mentioning Club+Rapier, it gives another bolded heading of "Rapier+Wakizashi."

Rapier's PA proc, decent damage, and good parry stat are probably irreplaceable, so the following all assume you're pairing with one. Which weapon goes in which hand matters case by case.

I'm also mostly assuming Balance for off-hand to raise accuracy and thus Offhand Strikes proc chance to 100%. Other suffixes would be viable if you can achieve that through forging. Nimble for more parry and Swift for more attack speed would be good choices for defensive value. Slaughter less valuable since off-hand damage is capped at 50%. Defensive suffixes grant full effect, thus more attractive.

Slaughter for main hand is default choice, since you get full damage from main weapon, and Slaughter is overall best suffixe. You could go with Balance for more crit, Nimble/Swift for more survivability.

Club is a reasonably good offense choice. Stun adds some survivability, while also removing some defensive effects from the target. However, stun isn't an amazing defensive effect since monster still build up MP/SP and will nuke you once stun wears off if they're still alive. Clubs also lack attack speed or parry. The stun just serves to act as Overpower potency, though it has to proc to take effect, making it questionably better than just having enough OP between your two weapons. If you do use a club, you could squeeze in a little more Fatality/Butcher and possibly up your damage a bit as a result. Club would be your main hand and Rapier off-hand in this combo.

Axes do have significantly more ADB than Wakizashi or Rapier. But they have no defensive value at all. No speed nor parry. You'd be playing a glass cannon build using an axe. You'd also want it in your main hand.

Shortswords have reasonably good parry, reasonably good ADB. Might be a safer choice of slashing weapon than an axe, and more damage than a Wakizashi. Problem is that for offhand, the ADB isn't as critical. It's being halved regardless, so the difference in damage between the two is half. Shortsword of Slaughter as main-hand might be a good choice, with Rapier of Balance offhand.

As for replacing the Rapier, double axes for most raw ADB possible. Axe+Club to mix procs, etc. These are totally glass cannon options though, and you're going to get tons of damage and spend so much time healing/sparking.

It's being halved regardless

It's outdated by several patches.
Read .82

aye. now ADB's offhand is reduced by 20%, or - which is the same - to 80%

So, the default assumption here is that you'll be playing with Rapier and Wakizashi. Reason being: Penetrated Armor from Rapier and overall best weapon in the game by most peoples' opinions. Pair with Wakizashi to get two different procs, high attack speed and parry.

The entry then goes on to explore various suffixes within that assumption.

Okay, that makes more sense (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think price / IW time should be included as part of the valuation since something like Overpower, for example, is a pretty significant factor when it comes to mainhand rapier. If you're killing in 2-3 hits, a single extra parry doubles your kill time + wastes / doesn't build OC, whereas with club you KNOW it's dead after the stun procs. A forged-up IW'd-up rapier of slaughter may be better than any random club, but that's a big ask given the only other benefit over the PA proc is about 10%ish parry that does nothing against spells.

I'm only wondering so much because it's on the advanced page (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But a non-rapiers X damage * 0.5ish mit is at best equal to a rapier's 0.5X damage with zero mit. Granted my best rapier actually does deal half the damage of my non-rapiers :blink: , but even then you'd have to get three crits in a row to get all three stacks, IF they don't parry. Meanwhile the club user could always imperil once and get two stacks on three targets if they aren't using stance. It's just hard to see why rapier gets the top pick as mainhand.

At higher levels if you don't care about defense I think most of us would agree that club of slaughter + rapier of balance, axe of slaughter + rapier of balance, or axe of slaughter + club of balance are the contenders.

Since people do care about defense at least somewhat, that's why you see rapier + wakizashi, club + wakizashi, and club + rapier of nimble builds.

Also you may be underestimating the damage of rapiers a bit. The weapon damage of an axe is only 1.5x greater than that of a rapier, not double like you said. And because a large part of your damage comes from your own strength, proficiency, and armor...an axe only increases your damage by about 12% over a rapier, not considering imperil or penetrated armor.

wiki entry is... lulzy.

True, last time I updated the Advice and Advice Advanced, I just copied what was there - I don't know much about DW... Could I ask you, and other DW experts, for help? I'd appreciate it! You can just post the few lines that should replace the existing ones, and then I'll edit those into the wiki.

It's outdated by several patches.
Read .82

Well, that changes things a bit.

Also you may be underestimating the damage of rapiers a bit. The weapon damage of an axe is only 1.5x greater than that of a rapier, not double like you said. And because a large part of your damage comes from your own strength, proficiency, and armor...an axe only increases your damage by about 12% over a rapier, not considering imperil or penetrated armor.

To add to this:

Consider three main sources of damage:
Armor (shade/power)
PABs (STR and Dex)
Weapon(s)

For everyone else weilding only one weapon, you just pile all those together and go to town.

For DW, you pile all those together for your main hand, then do something similar for your offhand. Then apply your Offhand Strikes proc chance to that (reducing your average damage if it is below 100%) and then -20% to the damage (instead of 50% it used to be before 0.82 apparently).

So you get the following:
Armor+PABS+Rapier
and
Armor+PABS+Wakizashi*0.8

If an axe does 1.5x the ADB as a similar quality rapier, then you're getting
Armor+PABS+(Weapon*1.5)

To put that into perspective, consider:
Armor = 2k ADB
PABS = 2k ADB
Rapier = 1k ADB
Axe = 1,500 ADB

Your main hand damage is looking at 5k ADB vs 5.5k ADB.

Now take the same logic for your offhand. Lets say a similar quality Wakizashi does half the damage of a rapier, or 500ADB. You're getting 2k+2k+(500*0.8)= 4400
Compare to an axe: 2k+2k+(1500*0.8)= 5200

5200 is obviously better, but the loss of 800 ADB is not as big an impact on damage as "half" or "1/3rd" even if the weapon has half or a third of the ADB.

Meanwhile, tearing up your opponents' pmit through Imperil and/or PA stacks does result in close to twice as much damage in many situations.

Okay, that makes more sense (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think price / IW time should be included as part of the valuation since something like Overpower, for example, is a pretty significant factor when it comes to mainhand rapier. If you're killing in 2-3 hits, a single extra parry doubles your kill time + wastes / doesn't build OC, whereas with club you KNOW it's dead after the stun procs. A forged-up IW'd-up rapier of slaughter may be better than any random club, but that's a big ask given the only other benefit over the PA proc is about 10%ish parry that does nothing against spells.

I'm only wondering so much because it's on the advanced page (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still think club's stun proc is not as valuable as Overpower. Butcher/Fatality are adding a little bit of ADB to that particular weapon. See the above for how much of a difference that probably doesn't matter.

Overpower is a sure and reliable removal of "missing."

You say you KNOW it is dead once stun procs, but you have to proc stun. Until you do, you're missing and failing to generate OC, etc. Meanwhile, enough OP to completely nullify all parry happens first attack, every attack. Also remember that both weapons can have up to 5 OP each. Not that you likely need that much, but you can.

And what little damage you lose due to having less Butcher/Fatality, you can somewhat makeup for with bleed procs instead of 0-damage stun procs.

This post has been edited by Cryosite: Dec 7 2017, 00:18

True, last time I updated the Advice and Advice Advanced, I just copied what was there - I don't know much about DW... Could I ask you, and other DW experts, for help? I'd appreciate it! You can just post the few lines that should replace the existing ones, and then I'll edit those into the wiki.

Should i? Should i not?
*tosses a coin*
Result: should
Nope, exhausting & not even fun. Not a dw expert either.

True, last time I updated the Advice and Advice Advanced, I just copied what was there - I don't know much about DW... Could I ask you, and other DW experts, for help? I'd appreciate it! You can just post the few lines that should replace the existing ones, and then I'll edit those into the wiki.

let's simply say that the the amount of possible DW combos is quite big. just think about the various weapon types (which are 5), with all the possible combos (doubles included), and eventually even mirrored...

among them, the viable ones are relatively low (let's say half a dozen?) but still quite the big number for one person to try.

the most tested ones are:

• rapier of slaughter + waki of nimble (which is the one i'm using): waki gives high speed (i'm at 30%), and its huge AGI/DEX rolls boost your Evade and Parry quite a lot. combine all of this with a Shadowdancer build and you can reach 60+ Crit, 65+ Evade, 80+ Parry without paying too much attention to forging (currently i'm at 63.4/68/90.2 respectively). incidentally, even Resist, PMI and MMI aren't that bad.
  suggested IW is Fatality and Overpower on offhand, a combo of Butcher, Fatality and Overpower on mainhand. not sure about how many OP though. many say 10 is mandatory, but seems too much of a waste to me.
  note that afaik the main damage is done by the rapier. the waki is there primarily to boost defense and Crit and overall the build feels like a savage ghost
• club of slaughter + rapier (of balance?): i have limited knowledge of this, but on the paper here you give away a certain amount of Evade and Parry to be a bit more on the safer side, and exploit the fact that stunned mobs cannot evade nor parry - thus, it's like having 100% Overpower. hence you can also trade the more defensive Nimble suffix on offhand for a more offensive Balance one, which should allow you to reach ~100% offhand chance - which, on the other hand, allows you to reach a PA chance next to rapier's own one.
  suggested IW would be Butcher and Fatality on both weapons, but personally i wouldn't bother to reset if one or two Overpower should appear. first hit needs to land afterall, isn't it?
  speed and evade will surely be lower than in the other case (i'm not even sure crit will be *so* higher than rapier/waki, since DEX rolls are way lower)

other viable builds *may* include Axe of Slaughter + Rapier, Shortsword of Slaughter + Rapier, Axe of Slaughter + Club (Slaughter? Balance? Nimble?)... but personally i'd throw a Waki only with a Rapier.



btw, other DW experts are brewdonkey and drksprnt, if you need some opinions.

True, last time I updated the Advice and Advice Advanced, I just copied what was there - I don't know much about DW... Could I ask you, and other DW experts, for help? I'd appreciate it! You can just post the few lines that should replace the existing ones, and then I'll edit those into the wiki.

Not an expert on DW. Haven't used it myself. I can just read what others, like Scremaz, have mentioned. I tend to absorb info like a sponge, and can usually explain it well.

let's simply say that the the amount of possible DW combos is quite big. just think about the various weapon types (which are 5), with all the possible combos (doubles included), and eventually even mirrored...

among them, the viable ones are relatively low (let's say half a dozen?) but still quite the big number for one person to try.

the most tested ones are:

...

I think rather than try to list every possbile combination, to include suffixes, I think it would be more useful to take a step back and explain the general function and considerations of the build, then point out which weapons have which strengths.

For example, just from sponging off of what others have said, I have picked up that:
Offhand wants accuracy. Half the accuracy of the weapon itself adds to Offhand Strike proc chance, capping at 100% if you have 50% accuracy (other sources of proc chance cap at 75%). Therefore, this is a consideration most DW players will place in reasonably high priority. So whatever you put on your offhand, pay attention to that Acc stat. Balance is good due to double the usual accuracy (as well as some tasty crit chance). Most legendary weapons I've looked at have somewhere around 25% acc, and most balance legendary weapons have about 50%. So if you're not using a balance weapon, you'll have to come up with 25% more acc through forging.

Overpower/Stun(from club proc): bypass enemy parry/evade. This is a consideration 1h users (like me) mostly don't care much about, due to Overwhelming Strikes as well as lots of stun handed out like candy by Counter Attacks. Again, regardless of what weapon combination you use, consider how much anti-parry/evade you have available. This is probably worth more than slight increases to raw damage.

Speed, parry, and evasion are your "don't kill me" stats. As a 1h user, I get a different perspective on these, and get block to boot. But for a DW user, going fast, high evasion, and high parry all help keep you alive. All builds need to figure out how to stay alive in order to keep killing things. So weapons like Rapiers, Wakizashis, and Shortswords are useful because of survivability they offer, suffixes like Nimble and Swift help too, and Swift Strikes potency helps as well.

Then lastly, raw damage output considerations. Rapier for PA. Without it you're getting about half your damage output being mitigated away by enemy defenses. Slashing weapons inflict bleeding wounds, which is some damage and interacts with at least one of the fighting style skills if memory serves. Other than that, the entry ought to give advice on how much or how little importance raw damage is compared to other considerations, and it should suggest that some weapons, like axes, do offer more raw damage, but don't offer parry/attack speed.

Experience in the build would dictate how important these things are.

I think something that gives that information, plus whatever information I'm obviously missing due to lack of familiarity with the build, and general advice on how to select weapons is a better use of the entry than "here are some combination people use. Use one of these."

Nope, exhausting & not even fun. Not a dw expert either.

two heavesn as one ,,＼_((( ￣□)_／ =/= two heavens ,,((( ￣□)_／_／ after alls

Offhand wants accuracy. Half the accuracy of the weapon itself adds to Offhand Strike proc chance, capping at 100% if you have 50% accuracy (other sources of proc chance cap at 75%).

not necessarily. it depends also by the specific proc. while Stun and PA definitely wants to have an offhand chance as high as possible, it's not so mandatory for BW, because:

1. a DW Shade build *inevitably* boosts your speed. while this is good for Stun and PA because it basically prolongs their durations, it's bad for BW because it will prolong the number of turns between two bleed damages
2. usually you pick the weakest weapon on offhand: in case of bleeding weapons (Axe, Shortsword, Wakis) it means Wakis, which don't have a very high damage to begin with. and as i said before, its purpose isn't to inflict damage on its own, but to boost the whole build. Axes are inevitably mainhand weapons. Shortswords are sort of a jolly and have a decent damge, so here you may actually think a bit about their ACC. not that 94 vs 100 does that big of a difference, though

Overpower/Stun(from club proc): bypass enemy parry/evade.

note the difference: Stun is granted (at least afaik) to bypass both parry and evade, while Overpower has a chance to bypass parry. ACC > 100 bypasses evade in this case

This is probably worth more than slight increases to raw damage.

well, they say dead men tell no tales...

First I have to say the wiki doesn't say exactly how overpower works. We know counter-resist through magic proficiency is multiplicative. Overpower simply says it reduces parry by 1% on the monster lab page, and you get 4% per level on the item world page. So 10 overpower is either really good or really average. If it's a straight stack, otherwise it's only useful on the mainhand since the offhand always hits if the mainhand does.

Speed, parry, and evasion are your "don't kill me" stats. As a 1h user, I get a different perspective on these, and get block to boot. But for a DW user, going fast, high evasion, and high parry all help keep you alive. All builds need to figure out how to stay alive in order to keep killing things. So weapons like Rapiers, Wakizashis, and Shortswords are useful because of survivability they offer, suffixes like Nimble and Swift help too, and Swift Strikes potency helps as well.

Then lastly, raw damage output considerations. Rapier for PA. Without it you're getting about half your damage output being mitigated away by enemy defenses. Slashing weapons inflict bleeding wounds, which is some damage and interacts with at least one of the fighting style skills if memory serves. Other than that, the entry ought to give advice on how much or how little importance raw damage is compared to other considerations, and it should suggest that some weapons, like axes, do offer more raw damage, but don't offer parry/attack speed.

Experience in the build would dictate how important these things are.

Damage is also a "don't kill me" stat. Is it much of a sacrifice to drop parry for other stats or procs when a dead monster is dead and a living one can always get lucky? Hard to talk about without actual numbers, but I can say with my experience that more mainhand damage more than makes up for a few percents of parry. That said, the real strength of a club is that it can "kill" a monster in one hit, and 50% crit after fartseeker is a very attainable bar to reach. You need 44.5 on the character sheet to get an effective 50. I know my rapiers have terrible damage, but switching from rapier to axe was a huge upgrade, and again from axe to club. If one switches from club to a good rapier with overpower, how much gain is there when you still need to build stacks (unless you go rapier/rapier lol but I'm sure no one with money does that since money can give you 67 crit and a good waki has everything a rapier has minus the proc) and kill one monster at a time. while a just-as-good club can "kill" several monsters at once while you're actually killing another? I could see mainhand rapier if one used infusions, but I've seen maybe two people ever talk about using those, and if you use OFC instead neither the proc nor the parry would be useful when half the screen is dead.

I think the progression is rapier for poor/low level, other stuff in the middle, slightly more even at the highest end? with rapier in the offhand instead of main since 98-99% offhand PA is just as good as in the mainhand.

EDIT: I could see the extra percents of mainhand rapier being more important if you're playing pfudor and the other stats aren't quite enough to overcome the monster speed bonus, but I always play pfudor so I couldn't say. Also parry does nothing vs spells so the stun from a club more than makes up for the evade hit if you don't let it wear off.

This post has been edited by qw3rty67: Dec 7 2017, 02:23

Hello I'am lv135 now and was a melee dual then change to magi, now i want to change back to melee because i read it's easier and also is starting to use monsterbation, so

What should i expect from light+two hand or heavy+one hand?(they are recommended)-if i want to make the combat end quicker and easier which one should i choose?) and what kind of stats construction and equipment should i looking for?

thank you~

This post has been edited by playboy111: Dec 7 2017, 04:11

"quicker" ε===(っ≧ω≦)っ dunnos

"easier" 1h by fars so it general recommends to move to it

although am pretty of sure that due to pricings differents you can have a nice forge levels with light armour that might mitigate
differents? __〆(￣ー￣ )

like most, main experients was with 1H and even my relatives' underpowereds set still works for me when wants to do something my mage set has trouble with

This post has been edited by reality_marble: Dec 7 2017, 04:31

I used club + waki of varying suffixes for much of my life prior to level 245, mainly because it was what I owned, but also because rapier was kind of useless before level 200 as enemies didn't yet have much physical mitigation.

Consider three main sources of damage:

Armor (shade/power)
PABs (Str and Dex)
Weapon(s)

For everyone else wielding only one weapon, you just pile all those together and go to town.

For DW, you pile all those together for your main hand, then do something similar for your offhand. Then apply your Offhand Strikes proc chance to that (reducing your average damage if it is below 100%) and then -20% to the damage (instead of 50% it used to be before 0.82 apparently).

You forgot proficiency, which can actually be the largest chunk of your damage. But anyway it doesn't affect the general argument.

Your calculation for DW is wrong (also does not affect the general argument, just pointing it out). I don't know how it used to go, all I can say is that it currently goes like this:

• Your main hand weapon damage and offhand weapon damage pile together, along with the damage from your armors, stats, and proficiency, except that the offhand weapon is multiplied by 80% in this piling.
• Your main hand damage is calculated from this. 80% of the offhand weapon's damage is part of this.
• Your offhand strike damage is 50% of your main hand damage, no matter what. Similar to a void/elemental strike, you could say.
• Your main hand weapon's void strike is also 50% of your main hand damage. So your main hand void strike is typically the same damage as your offhand strike.
• Your offhand void strike in turn is 25% of your main hand damage.
• Except at low levels, elemental strikes tend to roughly be half of void strike damage due to elemental mitigation but this varies by enemy species.

Should I raise my Archaeologist skill to maximum? How much would that cost me? And is it worth it?