[X] My Assistant

1,577 turns 0:08:55 (2.948 t/s) 1 riddle (Sunday)
1,407 turns 0:08:40 (2.706 t/s) 1 riddle (Monday)
DD8


This post has been edited by DJNoni: Apr 13 2020, 07:48

4,053 turns 0:23:01 (2.935 t/s) 2 horses < Electric day, pre upgrading with 20 slaughters
4,057 turns 0:23:47 (2.843 t/s) 2 horses < Holy day, with upgrades, and usually my 2nd fastest day
4,114 turns 0:24:17 (2.824 t/s) 2 horses < Dark day today, usually my fastest day.

This is either really unlucky RNG with monsters and crit rates, or I'm getting worse every day, I'd usually expect that list to be the other way round

I don't believe I've levelled up between the 3, fully repaired every time (I'm rather anal about being at 100% repair at start of every DwD), all with the same strikes (Holy + Dark)

Friday should be all melee players' fastest day because its bonus damage to void/all elements includes your main hand hit, void strikes, and counter attacks. Also melee players appear to hit a wall around where I am at just under 4,000 turns due to the way they play rather than the damage; it may be why my turns have not changed much over my last ~35 levels despite my damage noticeably weakening. This should apply mainly to 1H non-imperil rapier using vital strike, although so far it seemed to apply to others' results too.

You should make note of your total attack base damage before and after changing equipment or adding bindings of slaughter, then check if your times improve proportionately.

I've noticed in general with melee players here that DwD times can occasionally vary a lot. I'm wondering if the number of Konata appearances could be a contributing factor. Although depending how you play she is not any faster to kill than other school girls; she could even be slower if you choose to Vital Strike other school girls but not her, as I currently often do.

Friday should be all melee players' fastest day because its bonus damage to void/all elements includes your main hand hit, void strikes, and counter attacks.

I generally get similar times on Friday and Holy/Dark Days, but dark day has often been slightly faster.

I've noticed in general with melee players here that DwD times can occasionally vary a lot. I'm wondering if the number of Konata appearances could be a contributing factor. Although depending how you play she is not any faster to kill than other school girls; she could even be slower if you choose to Vital Strike other school girls but not her, as I currently often do.

In all my tests, vital striking every SG but konata is slower than vital striking all SG's. Not that I've tested that extensively. The only time it would get quicker that I can think of, is when you have enough damage to kill her quick enough that the fewer times dropping out of spirit stance saves you more turns than it cost to kill her. I'm only DD1, and certainly not at that point, if that point even exists

This post has been edited by Ubershank: Apr 13 2020, 21:04

Yeah sometimes I have vital striked Konata every time too in the recent past, it just depends how I currently am playing and I don't know what way is best. I think that having more DD makes it more attractive to beat down school girls, even regular ones supposedly (but I hadn't been able to find the link to who said that haha).

Whether or not the timing is with you to vital strike Konata may even be random and fluctuate with your level and/or attack power. Since I generally try to vital strike optimally to lose spirit stance with it so I don't have to waste turns turning it off. As your attack power changes up or down, you could sync or lose sync to vital striking Konatas.

Right now, I still vital strike Konata once in a while depending what my overcharge is at. Also, I might vital strike Konata when she is alone but not when she is in a group of 3 school girls, or vice versa, just depending on my overcharge timing.

It largely depends on her health, which is only a big issue in the 1sg rounds, since there's a chance of getting unlucky and not starting with a stun, or worse, a stun not appearing after a few hits. When you overkill due to that, part of the OC usage is wasted, and there's a line where that waste will equal more clicks due to dropping out of OC more frequently. Ideally, you can vital strike her immediately, which will often 1 shot her (so there is a very small amount of waste, but negligible enough that just hacking at her will always cost more)

As for wasting clicks dropping out of spirit stance due to managing OC, I used to do this, mainly dropping out at points where I could recharge it quicker (due to a full round of monsters), but I found that managing that dropped my t/s, and didn't even seem to gain me any turns (if it did, it'd only be a small enough number to not notice).

For melee, I think spirit stance and OC management is one of the big turn savers (hence why I vital strike rather than OFC), so a few things I'm doing to manage that are:
When possible, holding off on spirit or mana draughts until I drop out of spirit stance, or to cause me to drop out (if I'm low, but not low enough to drop out naturally, using the OC on drinking something I need saves 1 turn)
Not using any power up gems, except the ones I'm forced to take until I get a channeling gem (for dragons last round), I can probably save a few more turns if I also don't use the unneeded gems prior to the channeling one until I'm out of spirit stance, but I don't go that far (partly due to the fear of bad luck making channelling not appear, since I'd be holding onto gems and preventing new ones for long periods)
I also only vital strike everything once, usually. The exception being if a vital strike hit is very small, it can be worth targeting a different SG and coming back to vital striking it again, but it's hard to get the balance with that since you can accidentally overkill the other SG very easily (If konatas in, I just kill her without vital strike while waiting for the cooldown, one of the very rare times I kill her with plain attacks. The other rare time being if I drop out of spirit stance, switching target to konata while I rebuild it can often bring her close to death or kill her, so I just do that, whereas targeting the others could lead to a situation where I'd have to overkill them with vital strike).
I don't heavily rely on weapon procs (and outside of SG arena's, don't rely on them at all), so I'm comfortable switching targets to land better vital strikes with better timing.

I had a thought recently about using a rapier to mitigate some of the turn loss when dropping out of spirit stance, and although I will test this eventually, I thought about it and realised it probably won't make much of a difference, if any at all. Rather, since Vital Strike relies a bit on crit, it may even be worse. Reason why I think it wouldn't matter too much being that I imperil anyway, so the difference in damage will be small enough, that in the very small amount of time I'm out of spirit stance, won't be a significant enough difference (bear in mind, that the damage difference is further reduced by bleeding wounds).

I waffled on a bit there lol

I misspoke; I've never manually toggled off spirit stance with 1H style. (That may have been a leftover brain fart from when I used to play DW?)

there's a line where that waste will equal more clicks due to dropping out of OC more frequently.

As for wasting clicks dropping out of spirit stance due to managing OC, I used to do this, mainly dropping out at points where I could recharge it quicker (due to a full round of monsters), but I found that managing that dropped my t/s, and didn't even seem to gain me any turns (if it did, it'd only be a small enough number to not notice).

When possible, holding off on spirit or mana draughts until I drop out of spirit stance, or to cause me to drop out

I also only vital strike everything once, usually. The exception being if a vital strike hit is very small, it can be worth targeting a different SG and coming back to vital striking it again

Actually beating down Konata saves you more than just having to click to re-enter spirit stance more times. It doesn't use any overcharge in the first place, therefore you build it while beating her down. And by dropping out of spirit stance (even optimally) less often, you gain the doubled damage from your regular attacks for the entire durations you would have dropped out to build back overcharge.

I also try to manage my item usage while I'm out of spirit stance. For me I only use gems since I do not ever need to use draughts (no-Imperil style plus low interference build and never needing spirit shield). I have to eat all useless gems at the earliest chance even if it wastes turns so that I have the maximum chance to get a useful gem. ;)

I've always killed school girls in one shot, often with 1.5~2x overkill. I'm guessing PA2 guarantees a one-shot for me, or PA1 plus a critical hit, so it's been a long time since I bother to check the PA stacks. On the rare occasion I fail to one-shot, I only need to hit them a few more times, or can just let the super bleeding wound finish them off.

I recall decondelite lamented at one point that if you hit a school girl dying from vital strike blood loss with a shortsword you might inflict regular bleeding wound on them which will erase the special multiplier and make them bleed much slower.

What kind of DD level do you have, out of curiousity? I can't one shot any other than konata, and can't bring them close enough that the PA difference (bear in mind I imperil) would make it happen if I used a rapier.

Are you one shotting them from full health? I try to make sure my vital strike is done before any other attack (so only counter damage at worse), which brings them close enough that I can kill them in a few hits, except on low rolls.

About the short sword bleed, what happens is it returns to the normal bleed damage when you refresh the stack, but keeps its stack quantity still. So, although it's not ideal, for shortsword VS is just an instant max stack without having to actually build it up, you get the extra damage for a minimum of one turn, more depending on how easy it is for you to apply a new stack.

Worth noting, that the super bleed isn't guaranteed, if you play rapier, you won't get it every time

This post has been edited by Ubershank: Apr 13 2020, 23:54

May I ask which style has the highest DPS?

(IMG:[imgur.com] https://imgur.com/YHpZJkn.jpg)

The result is not very good, but at least it was better than yesterday (the first time I used a script), and also better than my times in the last few months (without using a script). (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

Yesterday, as it was the first time I used a script, I made several mistakes due to lack of custom, and did it in just over 4200 turns and 32 minutes.

Playing without scripts, my time varied between 33 and 36 minutes. However, my best time was 27 minutes and 50 seconds, about 9 months ago. Since then my time has been getting progressively worse. Part of the problem is the level scaling of the monsters (and monster upgrades too). (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) And the other part is the connection to the game, which has worsened a lot (increase in the number of lags and errors 503), especially after this damn pandemic started. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

But I know there is still room for improvement, as I still haven't found a good game method using script. I'm still learning. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

On Friday (void day) you will be better. Your turns are a little better than mine but your equipment is about as good as can get, so I'm guessing I'll stay about the same from now until level 500. You might be able to stop casting Spirit Shield and Spark of Life, and stop eating gems, if you want to live dangerously and get the fastest possible time. :)

What kind of DD level do you have, out of curiousity? Are you one shotting them from full health?

I have DD5 like Basara, it's the typical stopping point if you aren't ultra rich. To counteract my high DD, my equipment other than armor and rapier are unsoulfused and weak. It doesn't seem to lower my DwD times because it's partially about how you play rather than the raw damage level, but I noticed and confirmed recently that my arena clear times have been dropping steadily since I soulfused my only equipment.

I have to poke the school girls 2~6 times to get PA on them, but I try to one shot them from as full of their health as possible. As soon as I see PA appear I attack other monsters and wait for their Stun to appear and go to Vital Strike them. I don't use infusions or imperil.

It doesn't seem to lower my DwD times because it's partially about how you play rather than the raw damage level

Part of the reason I won't use peerless for 1h arenas (I may for grindfests, since I won't enjoy those anyway), my aim is to improve my turns primarily through strategy. Currently average 4050~ , and drop under 4000 on dark/holy day & fridays. I'm forge 5 on most my armour (forge 15 on my chest piece), and not quite fully forged on my sword and shield. DD1

I have to poke the school girls 2~6 times to get PA on them, but I try to one shot them from as full of their health as possible. As soon as I see PA appear I attack other monsters and wait for their Stun to appear and go to Vital Strike them. I don't use infusions or imperil.

No wonder you can near "one shot" them every time if you have to hit them that many times before you even get your PA stack. You also have to hope a stun appears before it wears off...meanwhile, I just imperil, lands on SG's 1st time almost every time, for up to 3 targets, with more mit reduction than your 1 PA stack, and long enough that I can vital strike and kill them all without it running out (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Targeting other SG's to time vital strike is natural though, the ideal is to vital strike before landing any hits (aside from counters), so that you finish it off with normal attacks rather than with VS, because if you end it with VS, every bit of extra damage done that wasn't needed is just a waste of OC, and OC wastage/dropping out of spirit stance is one of the biggest things to add onto your turns.

This post has been edited by Ubershank: May 7 2020, 14:13

I'm guessing I'll stay about the same from now until level 500.

Hohohoho no you won't. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

I was assuming heavy forging to become like Basara, at every earliest point. As soon as I hit level 400 I'll be able to soulfuse almost all parts, most with junk, but some that will go immediately to forge 100. I bought 210 bindings of slaughter last week, not sure how many I'm willing to use on the panties which are put on ice for now after 50 amnesia shards of failed IW.

I'm trying to slow down my leveling though. I won't rush to 400. I'm sad that in the last 1.5 years I wasn't able to acquire anything worth forging. (There have been plenty, just none I personally wanted that fit my preferences or desired costs).

No wonder you can near "one shot" them every time if you have to hit them that many times before you even get your PA stack. You also have to hope a stun appears before it wears off...meanwhile, I just imperil

Targeting other SG's to time vital strike is natural though, the ideal is to vital strike before landing any hits (aside from counters), so that you finish it off with normal attacks rather than with VS, because if you end it with VS, every bit of extra damage done that wasn't needed is just a waste of OC, and OC wastage/dropping out of spirit stance is one of the biggest things to add onto your turns.

Imperil is far superior, mine is just a stingy way of playing so I don't use any resources, plus my imperil is still cheap with only 1 target (this may be the final week it is).

With haste there is no chance for my PA to wear off, but I suppose without haste, if you have really high t/s and poor human reactions, there is a chance that 7 turns could pass before you notice the stun appear.

I don't actually need to hit them that many times as I suspect just 1 PA stack (followed by a crit Vital Strike) could be enough for me, that's why I said 2~6, but it's a balancing act between poking them carefully to save turns, or playing faster and just poking them a lot. The pokes don't do much damage as those happen before PA is inflicted.

but it's a balancing act between poking them carefully to save turns, or playing faster and just poking them a lot

The great thing about vital striking first is it doesn't effect your t/s at all, you VS and finish it off, not worry about how many times you can hit before you might overkill, not knowing if you will crit or not, or what you'll roll on your damage.

The pokes don't do much damage as those happen before PA is inflicted.

PA happens after the hit too iirc, so even on the hits PA lands, it's still only hits after that that take effect.

Semi related to the above, one reason I value shortsword + vital striking first, is that you get the 5 stacks of bleeding wounds, which will stay applied while you are attacking it = no turns wasted getting the stacks in the first place. I don't do numbers much, so this is me talking out my arse, but I wouldn't be surprised if 5 stacks of bw is as good or better than 1PA.

You know, at some point, when you want the best, there is no way around having to be a traitor and send wallet-kun to the hospital.

(IMG:[i.imgur.com] https://i.imgur.com/fPBvHNum.jpg)

As far as playstyle costs go, seriously, it's not a a 90c mana potion once every X dozens of rounds that will kill you. Not to mention that you don't even need any potions to play regular Imperil 1H anyway. Likewise, it's not 1x3kC worth of Aether Shards a day that will make you go bankrupt to clear arenas. Make it 2x3kC for a PFFEST, and I won't count the pathetically low cost of 14/21 feathers. That is, I'm not taking into account the Aether SHards you'll be dropping yourself. Even when it comes to play mage, unless you're a madman and spam gum+vase, the costs to get going are actually not high, compared to what you earn on your way.

This post has been edited by decondelite: May 7 2020, 19:24

I was hoping my upcoming tests would show that just a single casting of Imperil (with 3 targets, which I don't have yet this week) could be close to the best with a rapier, because it reaches the point where the remaining targets are guaranteed to not have PA wear off. But extrapolating my current results it's not looking that way. Most likely full casts of Imperil are the best, same as shortsword.

The only difference might be that rapier might as well stop at 3 when shortsword may want to occasionally try another Imperil to stick, but that would be a negligible difference either way. And there is no solid proof yet whether rapier or shortsword is better with high proficiency imperil. Maybe rapier would do better with swarms of 7 or 8 because it can cast 2 Imperils and leave the last enemies alone. Also, if rapier only uses a 1 or 2 Imperil style, it can use OFC sometimes which might make back some ground.

The great thing about vital striking first is it doesn't effect your t/s at all, you VS and finish it off, not worry about how many times you can hit before you might overkill, not knowing if you will crit or not, or what you'll roll on your damage.

I wouldn't be surprised if 5 stacks of bw is as good or better than 1PA.

Indeed, I knew that from the beginning. It's not the end of the world if rapier doesn't one-shot though, especially if the super bleeding wound appears. That's why I take the chance with unknown PA stacks and hoping for a crit. Back when I was much lower level with the same DD5, my damage was higher and I always overkilled School Girls badly. Maybe with DD5~9 a highly forged shortsword build at low level would also overkill School Girls with Vital Strike?

Your other question is worth returning to; apparently the mathematics weren't perfectly resolved yet. The big revelation for me is that since Bleeding Wound ignores PMit, it actually makes shortswords a lot better than previously thought, and Bleeding Wound is quite comparable to Penetrated Armor in a way. Monster PMit increases with level all the way to 500; the last time I really used Bleeding Wound was when I was a very low level DW player. It didn't seem like much but Penetrated Armor also wasn't important back then.

Bleeding Wound does 8% of your character's "base damage" per stack. Depending on monster PMit (ranges from 0.7 ~ 0.8 at level 500) Penetrated Armor does 17.5% ~ 20% of your character's "base damage" per stack (note this corresponds to +58% ~ +100% actual damage, which is why PA and Imperil are generally regarded as vital and amazing).

I just realized our previous analysis forgot to consider though, that PA also helps Critical damage, and also Void/Elemental Strikes damage, and also Counter Attacks damage, which Bleeding Wound does not. The old Research for 1H rule of thumb is that these amount to a factor of 2.4 (main hit plus crits and strikes) + 0.75 (counter attacks, let's use 1 per turn) = 3.15

So Penetrated Armor is 3.15 * 20 / 8 ≈ 7.8 times stronger than Bleeding Wound. With Imperil applied, PA stacks suboptimally (multiplicatively) thus this becomes 3.9 times stronger. So your answer is that PA is worth 4~8 stacks of Bleeding Wound. Unless there is still a logical error which is quite possible. Decondelite also pointed out that Bleeding Wound damage applies a turn or two earlier than Penetrated Armor.

Formula to calculate the base power of bleeding wound:
Character's Attack Base Damage * Equipment DOT % * 0,44 * damage multipliers

By the way I just noticed this in the old post and spreadsheet. Is the 0.44 factor a typo? The wiki still says 0.4 like it used to.

Times are getting better, stopped using OFC because it seems like a waste in Arena, not 100% sure though.

It's 0.4. That wasn't a typo, we simply forgot the Godslayer bonus at that moment.

Times are getting better, stopped using OFC because it seems like a waste in Arena, not 100% sure though.

Nice, looking good
There's arguments for both vital strike and OFC. I swear by vital strike, and get my best turns with it, but I know others who are faster with OFC too. You seem to have needed to defend and cure a few times, I found that although worse on turns, OFC was more defensive for me when I used to use it (wiping out all the mooks immediately, rather than taking them out through counters), might save you a few cures. Eventually you'll get tanky with levels (though so will enemies unfortunately) where you won't need to cure anymore either way though