[X] My Assistant

The Destruction staff he showed you is not exactly the cream of the crop (~33 base MDB, decent exquisite Destructions are around ~37-40), just saiyan
Also, chill, son. It's just a game.

This post has been edited by Tiap: Jul 9 2012, 20:30

7% from aura and 7% from training have identical benefits.

Huh....I give up. I won't answer any of your question again.

The Destruction staff he showed you is not exactly the cream of the crop (~33 base MDB, decent exquisite Destructions are around ~37-40), just saiyan
Also, chill, son. It's just a game.

Right now, it appears to be not much different than most kill everything in sight dungeon games

You just have to figure out what works and what doesn't to build the best player you can based on you
individual play style

Just my opinion (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

1. The Bonus from Focus is not huge when you already have Tons of Magic Accuracy on your phase gear. You are probably using Cotton. Or given how stupid you are you may even use Heavy Armor.
2. Yeah it is good for low levels but when you are big you want to change your Toy for a real weapon.
3. Yeah yeah but what you don't get is is the following. On 200+ gameplay you are not missing but the monsters are resisting. Even with 2342434345345646474% Accuracy they will still resist you.

1. I am using all phase gear, superior at least, high level too; 96.9% to hit before casting arcane focus, which I have always on for every battle since level 130 (that delicious +25% to damage; +25% to damage does beat the bonus it gives to accuracy). And BonusES not bonus. To hit (starts high, eventually goes down to ~1pp) to crit AND mana conservation (10-20%). Compared to base damage bonus that starts off low (~2%) and eventually reaches about 5% in level 300.

Also, can we have an argument without personal insults? I am not stupid, you are not stupid, we are having what SHOULD be a civil discussion.

2. I am glad I got you guys to agree to stop advising low leveled players to use a staff that is bad for them.
Maybe I will switch to it in the end game but so far the math is not looking in its favor.

3. Monsters are resisting a lot even on sub 200 gameplay. But nothing I can do about it. What I can do things about is damage output and missing. Missing still occurs and it still hurts.
Oh, and the mana conservation REALLY helps with all those resisting.

7% from aura and 7% from training have identical benefits.

You're not stupid. You're beyond stupid. The stupidest and stubborn player I've ever seen.

You don't really understand most of the mechanics, still giving wrong information, and still you think you're correct after I've given you all the necessary stats you requested.

This post has been edited by varst: Jul 9 2012, 20:53

Since Accuracy does not mean that much for Higher leveled people it will come down to Mana Conservation vs Damage output.
Damage Output ---> faster clears = less hits taken from mobs with one hit kill attacks.
Mana Conservation ---> Mana saved but more hits taken so you will spend your time refilling your Spirit.

There is a reason why everyone wants Destruction over Focus.

Right now, it appears to be not much different than most kill everything in sight dungeon games

You just have to figure out what works and what doesn't to build the best player you can based on you
individual play style

Just my opinion (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I treasure individual play styles. Focus style is still viable over lv.300 provided you know how to deal with monsters.

And there's a time when there's no mana conservation bonus on staffs. We've people who tried and said their ability to survive greatly improves after changing to destruction staff at lv. 130. That's why we can conclude that the accuracy is an non-issue. It's after the addition of mana conservation bonus that makes focus a viable weapon again.
The conclusion is important, but the reasoning is also important. The good result won't prove you're using an okay logic.

Also, I have to tell you that 10% bonus on mages isn't the same as 10% for melees. As I've said before, it's the difference between killing 4-5 monsters and killing none. That's important when you want to speed up your round-clearing process. As for higher difficulties, I will suggest people to get some plate of protection and an estoc. There's no point being a glass cannon if you can't speed up your clearing process.

This post has been edited by varst: Jul 9 2012, 21:05

Huh....I give up.

What?

CODE

roundup($get_exp * $aurabonus * (1 + $hathperkbonus / 100) * (1 + ($skillbonus + $trainbonus + $toplistbonus + $postbonus) / 100))

The formula is extremely clear about it. Both aurabonus and trainbonus apply multiplicatively (by adding pp to one of the multipliers).
The only difference is that adding 1pp to the smaller bonus gives improved results.

So 7% to aura CAN mean more...

If I get 100XP.
100 * 1.35 * 1 * 1.70 = 229.5 (roundup to 230)
Now add 7% aura.
100 * 1.42 * 1 * 1.70 = 241.4 (roundup to 241)
Alternatively add 7% train bonus
100 * 1.35 * 1 * 1.77 = 238.95 (roundup to 239)

But they do add the same way.
If the player just started.
100 * 1 * 1 * 1 = 100
100 * 1.07 * 1 * 1 = 107
100 * 1 * 1 *1.07 = 107

In this example the 7% to aura gave slightly more to a person with my stats is because aura bonus total was much lower to begin with. (which is understandably an expected situation with how damn expensive auras are and how damn cheap training is). If trainbonus was lower to start with its 7% would give more.
I still don't see how this justifies 100,000 credit and the opportunity cost of not improving the auras actually useful for your combat type. The reason a reasonable player would have higher train-bonus then aura bonus is exactly BECAUSE aura-bonus is so much more expensive.

Its not the the aura bonus is inherently better its that the average player would have invested much more heavily in training over auras because auras are so damn expensive.

I won't answer any of your question again.

Way to teach me a lesson, let it be an example of all who shall dare to disagree with varst. If you are such an expert you should be able to back up your arguments.

Oh, and this argument isn't about a question of MINE you answered, you answered someone else's question and I disagreed with your answer. (you told a level ~140-150 player (primary stats 152, no level given) whose problem was running out of mana after 70 rounds to get a destruction staff).

And made the claim that swapping a focus staff to a destruction staff would cut down rounds to kill a group of mobs from 6-7 rounds to 3 rounds.

This post has been edited by mrttao: Jul 9 2012, 21:13

Got ignored (IMG:[s14.directupload.net] http://s14.directupload.net/images/120709/9in9gzoc.gif)

What?

CODE

roundup($get_exp * $aurabonus * (1 + $hathperkbonus / 100) * (1 + ($skillbonus + $trainbonus + $toplistbonus + $postbonus) / 100))

The formula is extremely clear about it. Both aurabonus and trainbonus apply multiplicatively (by adding pp to one of the multipliers).
The only difference is that adding 1pp to the smaller bonus gives improved results.

So 7% to aura CAN mean more...

If I get 100XP.
100 * 1.35 * 1 * 1.70 = 229.5 (roundup to 230)
Now add 7% aura.
100 * 1.42 * 1 * 1.70 = 241.4 (roundup to 241)
Alternatively add 7% train bonus
100 * 1.35 * 1 * 1.77 = 238.95 (roundup to 239)

But they do add the same way.
If the player just started.
100 * 1 * 1 * 1 = 100
100 * 1.07 * 1 * 1 = 107
100 * 1 * 1 *1.07 = 107

In this example the 7% to aura gave slightly more to a person with my stats is because aura bonus total was much lower to begin with. (which is understandably an expected situation with how damn expensive auras are and how damn cheap training is). If trainbonus was lower to start with its 7% would give more.
I still don't see how this justifies 100,000 credit and the opportunity cost of not improving the auras actually useful for your combat type. The reason a reasonable player would have higher train-bonus then aura bonus is exactly BECAUSE aura-bonus is so much more expensive.

Its not the the aura bonus is inherently better its that the average player would have invested much more heavily in training over auras because auras are so damn expensive.
Way to teach me a lesson, let it be an example of all who shall dare to disagree with varst. If you are such an expert you should be able to back up your arguments.

Oh, and this argument isn't about a question of MINE you answered, you answered someone else's question and I disagreed with your answer. (you told a level ~140-150 player (primary stats 152, no level given) whose problem was running out of mana after 70 rounds to get a destruction staff).

And made the claim that swapping a focus staff to a destruction staff would cut down rounds to kill a group of mobs from 6-7 rounds to 3 rounds.

It all comes down to this. If it takes you 4 rounds with a 25% mana conservation focus, and 3 rounds with anything else. You are better off with anything else, because you will be spending the same amount of mana in both cases on damage, and be taking more damage with focus.

What it honestly comes down to is players preference, and the rest of their gear. Destruction is nice for many players. Just like Katalox is highly valued. I right now am using neither destruction or Katalox. I am using this Magnificent Hallowed Oak Staff of Heimdall and it is serving me quite well, and I like the idea of using a focus staff, but only if I can actually save mana by using it and not lose it due to having to cure or cast regen, or losing to much spirit due to getting hit by monsters that didn't die fast enough.

What people are trying to tell you about the damage difference is this: When you lose 200 damage due to a lower Magic Damage Bonus, it equates to about 1400-1800 damage (before mitigation) due to the multiplicative effects from proficiency and elemental damage bonuses. If people have really high PABs then they are most likely going to benefit more from a prof staff or EDB staff.

Finally, the reason why people got angry about what you said about EXP bonuses is all in how you worded it. It sounded like you were just saying 7% is 7%. In your most recent post you cleared that up, but still you ignored the other benefit players get by opening up more auras. They get an increase in SP, which is minimal, and get other benefits like mitigation and endurance. But not every player should go right for the auras cause they only get so many Aura points, and might be better off focusing on leveling the ones they already have. Once again, it comes down to the player and all we can do is advise on a general level unless they post details with specifics. I would suggest most players get all auras and play a balanced style, but people who want to be just melee might just ignore getting the Indigo aura cause it would not benefit them.

If you want me to come back with math or want to talk to me through PM feel free to message me, and try to keep this post for what it is meant for. Questions, not arguments.

~Chip

Thanks for the cleanup skillchip. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Side story: once upon a time that line reads 'fully train refined aura by level 90'.

The EXP side bonus should also have reached about 300% at lv.150 (AP~100% + adept~100% + posting ~100%) unless players are powerleveling from lv. 1. So that would be a factor of 4 in the equation. Thus people will need about 20% EXP bonus to achieve the same result as 7% bonus from the last aura. (1.42*4/1.35 - 4)
(the AP + adept bonus is from long-term observation on other's stats posted at that level)

I also considered the utilization of unused auras; lv.150 is around the point where too many aura points stack.

And speaking about EDB staff vs destruction staff, problem isn't on the first hit, but on the complement spell. I'm also using a heimdall when I went solo-holy, but gets really problematic when I need to cast other type of spells (except soul which can self-boost its power).

This post has been edited by varst: Jul 9 2012, 22:47

Got ignored (IMG:[s14.directupload.net] http://s14.directupload.net/images/120709/9in9gzoc.gif)

No, I was typing up a long response that I started before and finished after you had made an additional post.

Since Accuracy does not mean that much for Higher leveled people it will come down to Mana Conservation vs Damage output.
Damage Output ---> faster clears = less hits taken from mobs with one hit kill attacks.
Mana Conservation ---> Mana saved but more hits taken so you will spend your time refilling your Spirit.

There is a reason why everyone wants Destruction over Focus.

Even if we are going by level 300+ only. 1pp to hit is not trivial. It means 1/100 attacks deals damage rather then 0% damage.
There is also the to crit bonus which also increases damage. Both of those result in faster clears.
And the damage bonus is small enough that it doesn't ALWAYS mean a faster clear, it means sometimes you clear it faster by one round. Also, recall that the damage bonus doesn't help if the attack misses or is resisted. And people here are complaining about monsters resisting 8 attacks in a row. Also also, damage is pretty massive already, so it needs quite a bit of luck for that 5% extra to be the difference between a dead and a living monsters.

The damage bonus IS USEFUL, I never said it isn't. My argument is that the 3 bonuses combined outweigh its benefit when considered in an overall manner. With a primary focus on lower levels (since the argument was started when a player under level 150 was told to get a destruction staff as a solution for his running out of mana on long fights)

And there's a time when there's no mana conservation bonus on staffs. We've people who tried and said their ability to survive greatly improves after changing to destruction staff at lv. 130. That's why we can conclude that the accuracy is an non-issue. It's after the addition of mana conservation bonus that makes focus a viable weapon again.

Survive what? I have only died once since getting spark of life and that was when I ran out of mana just as it was expiring and decided to see if I can do one more round using magic missile.

It all comes down to this. If it takes you 4 rounds with a 25% mana conservation focus, and 3 rounds with anything else. You are better off with anything else, because you will be spending the same amount of mana in both cases on damage, and be taking more damage with focus.

Thats a good bit of ifs there. The claim varst made is that it takes 6-7 rounds with focus and 3 rounds with destruction. exact numbers he used.
And I agree with you that given the choice between 4 rounds with conservation and 3 rounds without I will go 3 without. But switching to destruction does not reliably guarantee such an improvement in round count.
It adds a little, but focus ALSO adds a little with its crits and to hit. And the destruction might be a little more overall when averaged out. But there is still the big issue of it being a small enough increase that most time it will take the same amount of rounds regardless, SOME rounds will be shorter by 1 round if you luck out. Instead of a near dead monster you will get a dead monster, that is good.

What it honestly comes down to is players preference, and the rest of their gear. Destruction is nice for many players. Just like Katalox is highly valued. I right now am using neither destruction or Katalox. I am using this Magnificent Hallowed Oak Staff of Heimdall and it is serving me quite well, and I like the idea of using a focus staff, but only if I can actually save mana by using it and not lose it due to having to cure or cast regen, or losing to much spirit due to getting hit by monsters that didn't die fast enough.

I agree there, and that is one nice staff. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What people are trying to tell you about the damage difference is this: When you lose 200 damage due to a lower Magic Damage Bonus, it equates to about 1400-1800 damage (before mitigation) due to the multiplicative effects from proficiency and elemental damage bonuses. If people have really high PABs then they are most likely going to benefit more from a prof staff or EDB staff.

I know and understand these figures. This isn't what they have been trying to tell me, they have been trying to tell me: (EXACT FIGURES) that switching focus to destruction turns a 6-7 round fight into a 3 round fight.
And I disagreed.
Yes 200 turns into 1400-1800... I argued that it is much lower then 200 at lower level, that even at level 300, its still probably closer to 100-150 point difference. That at level 300 you already are dealing a lot of damage such that that 100-150 comes out to about 5% increase and comes at the price of 1pp reduction in accuracy (costing 100% of damage per miss) and reduction in crits (costing you additional damage) AND reduction in mana conservation which all combine together.

Please notice I have pointed out the randomness in generating equipment stats. 200 additional points of base damage is possible but only if you compare a high base magic damage destruction staff with a low base magic damage focus staff. I personally went for a focus staff that has good base magic damage, EBD, accuracy, and crit bonus; as well as decent int and wisdom. But only mediocre mana conservation (I aim at a min of 10).
So base magic damage, accuracy, and crit chance all work together to increase lethality and the mana reduction is icying on that cake.

It's all about the overall stats of the item rather then focusing on one stat to the exclusion of all others.
The hypothetical 200 point difference comes with a destruction staff fully focused on base magic damage compared to a focus staff fully focused on mana conservation is unhealthy.
Oh, and proficiency bonuses and stat bonuses (dexterity vs intelligence) also matter a lot.
Reducing such a complex calculation to a "get of destruction" is doing a disservice to those asking advice.
Especially because this was a real advice given to a real person with a sub level 150 character (prime stats were 152, he didn't specify his actual level)

Finally, the reason why people got angry about what you said about EXP bonuses is all in how you worded it.

They have been cussing me out before I said anything about EXP bonuses.

It sounded like you were just saying 7% is 7%. In your most recent post you cleared that up

Yea, I worded it non ideally at first which is why I clarified.

but still you ignored the other benefit players get by opening up more auras. They get an increase in SP, which is minimal, and get other benefits like mitigation and endurance.

I had explicitly gone through point by point on everything the auras give. By focusing on auras that are pertinent to your playstyle you are getting equivalent benefits.
Also, auras do not boost SP they boost Power, according the wiki total power then boosts your base SP which is almost useless (decreases the relative effect of spirit stance), since both spirit shield and spark of life consume a percentage of your base spirit per use. Increasing base SP increases the consumption of spirit shield and spark of life to match.
Spirit tanks on the other hand multiple your base SP and increase available SP without increasing base SP, which helps spark of life and spirit shield.

But not every player should go right for the auras cause they only get so many Aura points, and might be better off focusing on leveling the ones they already have. Once again, it comes down to the player and all we can do is advise on a general level unless they post details with specifics. I would suggest most players get all auras and play a balanced style, but people who want to be just melee might just ignore getting the Indigo aura cause it would not benefit them.

That is all I said really.

If you want me to come back with math or want to talk to me through PM feel free to message me, and try to keep this post for what it is meant for. Questions, not arguments.

~Chip

Thank you, for being accepting of alternative play styles and for not making personal attacks.
I don't contest any of your math so its not needed for you to provide it.

unless players are powerleveling from lv. 1

Why wouldn't they?
This isn't my first RPG so I have been powerleveling from level 1.
I think I started using nintendo on like, my 2nd or 3rd day and IWBTH when I got spark of life.

This post has been edited by mrttao: Jul 10 2012, 01:49

If you delete a custom monster before it reaches PL25, are your Chaos Token(s) and Crystals refunded?

If you delete a custom monster before it reaches PL25, are your Chaos Token(s) and Crystals refunded?

Nope

Nope

Grr. Thanks for the warning!

God, I know I'm an idiot for having to ask this after playing for so long, but why does all equipment over a certain level (I think 210) have a stat in parentheses too?

God, I know I'm an idiot for having to ask this after playing for so long, but why does all equipment over a certain level (I think 210) have a stat in parentheses too?

The stat in parentheses is the stat scaled to your current level. It happens if the equip's level is higher than your current level.

http://ehwiki.org/wiki/Level_Scaling

Oh okay, thanks, so that's why as my level goes up the stats on my equipment continually rise. I've only been playing since April so I'm still relatively new (that's my excuse at least (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

So magnet is supposed to stop monsters from resisting and evading, but does it also stop parrying? I just got it and don't feel like testing it out.

Can you do other stuff while training?