[X] My Assistant

Maybe Nerf is the way to go...

core did say 1 AP in Nerf has a noticeable effect on their Barrier rating.

It's like Boggy just completely missed my post. Tisk, tisk. ::Finger waggle:: (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I did notice it. I never would have mentioned Nerf had you not tested it. I said "maybe" because I have to test it myself to decide if it is useful.

Edit:
Just fought all 3 non-Konata legendaries using Nerf. Yeah, that was easy.

Edit 2:
Just fought Konata using Hurricane and Nerf. Cake.

This post has been edited by Boggyb: Feb 22 2010, 21:43

How much more damage are you seeing with Nerf up, Boggy?

I'm estimating about 10% more damage for physical attacks from trying it against Bosses. Gonna hop into the Ring later and check Legendaries.

10% isn't that much, especially when you're not doing that much damage. Then again, maybe the returns will be higher if the enemy in question has a significantly higher Shield Rating, though that's doubtful.

How much more damage are you seeing with Nerf up, Boggy?

Answering this question would require a large scale statistical study. I don't really have time to do that. I did, however, test it out on a White Bunneh I found in an IW just now.

Without Nerf:
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2216 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2325 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2542 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr blasts White Bunneh for 3269 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr blasts White Bunneh for 3378 cold damage.

With Nerf:
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 3668 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2906 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2688 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr blasts White Bunneh for 5612 cold damage.

Answering this question would require a large scale statistical study. I don't really have time to do that. I did, however, test it out on a White Bunneh I found in an IW just now.

Without Nerf:
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2216 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2325 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2542 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr blasts White Bunneh for 3269 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr blasts White Bunneh for 3378 cold damage.

With Nerf:
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 3668 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2906 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr hits White Bunneh for 2688 cold damage.
Fimbulvetr blasts White Bunneh for 5612 cold damage.

It would, but a basic estimate would suffice. And just that small sample puts it at about +/-10%, as well.

How are you getting a +10% result from Boggy's numbers? It's not even relatively close to that, from my perspective.

From my own testing I'm seeing at least +50% against bosses at the end of arenas. I don't have the actual numbers written down, but from my long experience I recall Chain Lighthing hitting Dalek for around 2000 on average. With nerf, it's hitting for around 3000+ on average. I'm also critting for nearly 6k with Flames of Loki against ManBearPig, where it would never crit above 4k without Nerf.

I could do a more extensive trial against Konata to narrow that down to a more accurate percentage, but there's no question in my mind that mages should be using Nerf against bosses, legendaries, and gods. Especially since Channeling makes is free to maintain.

From a larger sample size:

Without Nerf:
16 hits- Average Damage: 1090.81
12 crits- Average Damage: 1740.17

With Nerf:
10 hits- Average Damage: 1819.7
4 crits- Average Damage: 2763.25

The nerf sample would be larger, but I forgot to cast Spark.

This post has been edited by Boggyb: Feb 24 2010, 01:11

I also did a larger sample size test, using Thunderstorm against Dalek in Nightmare.

Without Nerf:
13 hits - Average: 1412
4 crits - Average: 2231

With Nerf:
15 hits - Average: 1961
7 crits - Average: 3066

CODE

Hits:  (1961-1414)/1412 = +39% with Nerf
Crits: (3066-2231)/2231 = +37% with Nerf

I would have liked to have more data points, but Dalek died (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif). I'll try again tomorrow on Nintendo or Battletoads.

Boggy's data:

CODE

Hits:  (1819-1090)/1090 = +67% with Nerf
Crits: (2763-1740)/1740 = +59% with Nerf

It's interesting to note how much more of a difference Nerf was making for Boggy, but that could be from the relatively low sample size.

This post has been edited by coredumperror: Feb 24 2010, 01:36

The 10% is percent difference, but when I pulled my notes out, I saw that I forgot to divide the sum by two. So its more like 30%.

EDIT:
Percent difference, which is what I was tooling around with, and percent change, which is what you did, are completely different methods of analysis. So yeah, whatever that means. I need to find my statistics book, my actual notes are written in my textbook.

This post has been edited by cmal: Feb 24 2010, 01:59

More info to throw around (courtesy of Ryouko):

Without Nerf:
20 hits- Average: 1113.65
8 crits- Average- 1657.13

With Nerf:
30 hits- Average: 1842.6
15 crits- Average: 2805.6

Percent difference, which is what I was tooling around with, and percent change, which is what you did, are completely different methods of analysis.

How so? I know close to nothing about statistical analysis, so please educate me.

I don't know anything about statistics either. I took a special version of the class for engineers because we didn't need real statistics, just to know there's stuff like it. Sorta like why we had to take lib arts courses when we'll never use them.

Anyway, percent difference is the difference between two value divided by half of their sums: |v2 - v1|/(0.5 x (v2 + v1)). Percent chance is just the difference between two values divided by base value: delta v/v1. Put it simply, percent change is how you can go 100 x 1.1 to get 100 + 10%. I think percent difference is more of a measure of how close/similar two values are?

Either way, one of these values is more useful than the other. Which one and why, I'll leave to someone who knows what they're doing.

Frpm a layman's point of view, it seems like the important number is "how much more damage you deal with Nerf than without it." And my formula gives that number, as a percentage. Whether or not that's the "best" statistic for comparison here would be up to someone who knows this stuff, like you said.

I don't know anything about statistics either. I took a special version of the class for engineers because we didn't need real statistics, just to know there's stuff like it. Sorta like why we had to take lib arts courses when we'll never use them.

Anyway, percent difference is the difference between two value divided by half of their sums: |v2 - v1|/(0.5 x (v2 + v1)). Percent chance is just the difference between two values divided by base value: delta v/v1. Put it simply, percent change is how you can go 100 x 1.1 to get 100 + 10%. I think percent difference is more of a measure of how close/similar two values are?

Either way, one of these values is more useful than the other. Which one and why, I'll leave to someone who knows what they're doing.

Percent difference is usually used to weight two values that have no obvious scale with respect to each other. When you have an externally-set scale (which we obviously have here since they were determined by the same formulas), you don't need to take the time out to set up a scale before using the values.

Percent difference will give you "an idea of how similar they are to each other" but that's not as informative as actually taking the actual ratio they have with each other. For example this ratio can be used in calculations; for example a ratio of 100:130 damage means a ratio of 100:77 in kill time (i.e. it'd take approximately 77% of the moves normally needed to kill them with Nerf as it would without; not counting turns needed to keep Nerf up, of course).

...OMG, I beat Real Life.

...

No, for realz... this time. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)



There is one oddity I noticed. At certain points, when PA was down, I would suddenly hit him for like 97 damage. Can't figure it out (unless it was counting the damage from Ripened Soul?). Anyway.

Used ALL my items. Around 4 Scrolls of the Gods, 6 Mana Elixirs, and 2 Last Elixirs, I think. And I certainly would have lost without the Last Elixirs. The Scrolls weren't as needed, but I didn't have the mana to spare on casting Spark of Life myself, so it was good I had them., though Internet Shutdown did miss. Took me roughly an hour to win... all of which convinces me that I will never do this again.

Also, you will never again hear me complain about a lack of Superior drops... even if this happens to be my last one.

Now I need to go hugtackle torotuna for the rapier I bought.

...OMG, I beat Real Life.

...

No, for realz... this time. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)



There is one oddity I noticed. At certain points, when PA was down, I would suddenly hit him for like 97 damage. Can't figure it out (unless it was counting the damage from Ripened Soul?). Anyway.

Used ALL my items. Around 4 Scrolls of the Gods, 6 Mana Elixirs, and 2 Last Elixirs, I think. And I certainly would have lost without the Last Elixirs. The Scrolls weren't as needed, but I didn't have the mana to spare on casting Spark of Life myself, so it was good I had them., though Internet Shutdown did miss. Took me roughly an hour to win... all of which convinces me that I will never do this again.

Also, you will never again hear me complain about a lack of Superior drops... even if this happens to be my last one.

Now I need to go hugtackle torotuna for the rapier I bought.

Congrats dap00 for beating RL, and joined the RoB godslayers club (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

I have a question though, why you didn't use silence, instead relying on scrolls of gods? You could use more elixirs that way, I think.

There is one oddity I noticed. At certain points, when PA was down, I would suddenly hit him for like 97 damage. Can't figure it out (unless it was counting the damage from Ripened Soul?).

Grats on killing Real Life! You're right about Ripened Soul causing extra damage to show up. It doesn't say this in the description, but Ripened Soul actually makes your next attack drain HP from your target into yourself. So, your attack ends up dealing however much extra damage as you gained in HP.

@cmdct: I would guess that he used Weaken instead of Silence because it significantly reduces the speed with which Real Life deals damage to him. You still have to deal with Internet Shutdown, but it makes Regen much more capable at keeping you alive on it's own, since all of RL's melee damage is halved and can't crit. That's how I did it back at level 108, and it works just fine, mostly because RL hardly ever actually uses Internet Shutdown, even when he's at full SP.

This post has been edited by coredumperror: Feb 28 2010, 02:10

I haven't tried fighting Real Life with Silence rather than Weaken, but I doubt it is a better strategy. The question, of course, is does Real Life's normal attacks do more damage than his skill attacks while he is Weakened. I honestly cannot remember ever being hit by a non-skill attack, so I can't comment on the damage they do.

As I recall, RL's melee swings deal 10-20% less damage than his skill attacks deal, while he's weakened.

Blargh.

907 9 You gain 577 Credits!
907 8 You gain 24035.21 EXP!
907 7 Your HP and MP have been fully restored!
907 6 Arena Token Bonus! Received:
[Token of Healing]
907 5 Arena Clear Bonus! Received:
[Average Cotton Robe]
907 4 Invisible Pink Unicorn dropped [Unicorn Horn]
907 3 You are Victorious!
907 2 Invisible Pink Unicorn has been defeated.
907 1 You crit Invisible Pink Unicorn for 540 soul damage.
...
0 5 You gain the effect Shadow Veil.
0 4 You gain the effect Hastened.
0 3 You gain the effect Shield.
0 2 Spawned Monster A: MID=31 (Invisible Pink Unicorn) LV=174 HP=486975 MP=55 SP=242 NA=50 Type=hostile
0 1 Initializing arena challenge #110 (Round 1 / 1) ...
0 0 Battle Start!

5 Elixirs with MP to spare. It only took Regen, rather than Regen II. Not really a hard fight, just long and tedious since I have to keep casting Silence, Slow, and Nerf, with the occasional Regen and Heartseeker. And I forgot to put Nerf on my Quickbar. I'm gonna go ahead and PM Tenboro to ask if he'll give us another one directly instead of posting the suggestion hoping our benevolent deity was listening to my prayer.

Still don't know if I'm ready to take another shot at FSM. I've only managed to add a few more points of mit, but I've drastically reduced my Interference. And my rapier is a little stronger.

5 Elixirs with MP to spare. It only took Regen, rather than Regen II. Not really a hard fight, just long and tedious since I have to keep casting Silence, Slow, and Nerf, with the occasional Regen and Heartseeker. And I forgot to put Nerf on my Quickbar. I'm gonna go ahead and PM Tenboro to ask if he'll give us another one directly instead of posting the suggestion hoping our benevolent deity was listening to my prayer.

Still don't know if I'm ready to take another shot at FSM. I've only managed to add a few more points of mit, but I've drastically reduced my Interference. And my rapier is a little stronger.

What weapon were you using? That final crit makes me think eth rapier, but I didn't know you had one.