[X] My Assistant

No one's saying that melee should be as strong/fast as mage.

It's quite evident that faster clear times are the payoff for playing mage, at the expense of requiring more consumables, a "glass cannon" playstyle and higher cost for buying/upgrading equipment. Those who want to play it safe and/or don't have a huge income can currently still use melee as a viable option at higher levels and difficulties, but naturally it won't be as fast as mage. That's the trade-off. Point being that melee is currently still a completely feasible playstyle.

What I am saying, however, is that if melee had to play without the damage bonus from spirit stance, any melee build would become non-viable on higher difficulties. And since 90%+ of overall HV playtime happens on PFUDOR (rough guess), it wouldn't really make sense for Tenboro to essentially reduce the entire game down to nothing but mages, with melee being an irrelevant playstyle that gets abandoned after reaching level 100 or so.

Is melee really so much cheaper than mage gear?

If I would count the millions I have put in my melee sets I'm not so sure about that.

At first I paid a lot to gather a set around my scythe. Then bleeding got nerfed. After that I had to invest a lot in an estoc as piercing was the way to go. Also DW was good then. Then the next nerf happened and I had to invest a lot in order to get a good rapier and a shield.
Those sets also had to be forged a lot in order to get competitive as the monsters were getting stronger and stronger. So don't come and tell me that a high-powered melee set is cheap.

If I'm right such things didn't really happen to mage gear as some of those who have played as mages still can use some old gear. They only have to replace it with Peerless gear if they wanted to.


If spirit stance will get nerfed in the near future, I just hope that Tenboro will buff some of the other melee styles. If not melee will be dead iin my eyes. And I don't have the intention to become a mage as all that work and credits I have put in my melee sets would be worthless then.

So don't come and tell me that a high-powered melee set is cheap.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

Where exactly did I say that high-level melee is cheap?

All I said was that mage builds are more expensive than melee. And that's just me stating a fact. You can get end-game slaughter armor pieces for less than 10m at auctions, whereas end-game cloth armor can go for upwards 30-40m a pop. And even without considering the prices for individual equipment pieces, the total cost of upgrading differs greatly.

I ran a quick calculation with Scremaz's spreadsheets. Total upgrade cost (bindings, catalysts, materials):

Melee (rapier + force shield + 5x slaughter armor) = 160m
Mage (staff + 4x phase + 1x cotton) = 323m (and that's without any Radiant pieces)

I assume you've been playing for years and have had several melee builds, so I'm sure you've spent way more than I have. But I've been playing for less than 6 months and I've only had one melee build, so that's where I'm coming from.

Yup, and also consider that you can build cheap melee stuff and forge lv 5 using close to no money.
Cheap mage stuff requires 1m of phazons per piece to forge lv 5 (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Also, remember, about changing melee styles, that salvaging gets 90% of the mats back (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


Anyway, 0.85 and 0.86 already made hentaiverse become slowverse for melee, since the high t/s was basically a melee thing, the better OC efficiency was a melee thing and the lower monsters hp at lower difficulties were a melee thing since imperil mage oneshots normal monsters (or so) already.

I won't be surprised if hentaiverse will become mageverse in the future patches. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

To think all begun with a dark mage nerf (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

Spoiler text - Highlight to read...

give me 0.84 back (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

This post has been edited by End Of All Hope: Sep 17 2017, 20:29

Also, remember, about changing melee styles, that salvaging gets 90% of the mats back (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
Anyway, 0.85 and 0.86 already made hentaiverse become slowverse for melee, since the high t/s was basically a melee thing, the better OC efficiency was a melee thing and the lower monsters hp at lower difficulties were a melee thing since imperil mage oneshots normal monsters (or so) already.

High t/s was useful for all styles, the only one nerfed less is imperil maging.
Removing lower monster hp at lower difficulties is mostly a mage nerf since there is literally no reason to play melee at lower difficulties, while hellfests had the highest income/time for mages.

Spirit stance needing 25 OC honestly doesn't seem that big of a nerf.
In the past I tried doing OFC close to 250OC and @210-220OC (so bringing the total to less than 10).
There were literally 0 speed differences.
If anything the latter was a tad faster since I could get more OFCs that way.

Yep, moving the mouse away after 4-5 rounds and pressing S nullifies the nerf.
I think most melee players should be able to use this highly advanced tactic.

Mages just need a consumables nerf (action time on consumables usage and some modification to make scrolls/potions/elixirs a bigger credits sink, 0 action time consumable and unlimited mana/spirit really makes maging too easy).
On the other hands melee styles need something past level 400, there are basically no new useful abilities to unlock and you are already tanky enough at lvl 400 so higher levels just means monsters with more HP and nothing else, which is a little disappointing.

This post has been edited by Sapo84: Sep 17 2017, 22:01

something like 1H block/2H parry/DW crit lv2? or damage lv4?

something like 1H block/2H parry/DW crit lv2? or damage lv4?

It probably would be the easiest fix.

Let's also remember skills are now not chained anymore.
It's not like melee is completely crap, it's just doesn't hold up after it reaches the peak.

It probably would be the easiest fix.

Let's also remember skills are now not chained anymore.
It's not like melee is completely crap, it's just doesn't hold up after it reaches the peak.

so it basically means it simply needs a higher peak.

so it basically means it simply needs a higher peak.

It shouldn't decrease after peaking.

Just to make it more clear, at the moment it's probably something like
(IMG:[abload.de] https://abload.de/img/201709170926234wss3.png)
With the peak probably reached before level 400 (but most <400 lvl players probably don't have the credits to get a fully forged slaughter build).
The last ability granting melee speed is at level 385, after that is more tankyness and nothing else.
Mages on the other hand have useful abilities till 450, after that is more tankyness (which is actually good in this case).

(unscaled it would probably be something like [abload.de] this)
(feel free to disagree, I obviously haven't tried every style at every level, and melee is mostly based on 1H)


This post has been edited by Sapo84: Sep 17 2017, 23:38

Sapo, it could be "easy" as you say, but it becomes a real pain in the ass and cuts you entire seconds every time you have to recast SS, without mentioning the fact you have to move away every time as well.

I chose to remain melee, and most melee do that as well, because I didn't have to do such things as curing every round and imperiling targets 2, 5, 8 every round. Not to have to retoggle SS every 4-5 rounds, or losing clearspeed avoiding the use of OFC. Recasting buffs were enough, for a style 2-3 times slower than mage.
And the recent 0.85 update hit mostly melee, since imperil mages don't reach 3.5-4 t/s.
No-imperil mages are rare, expensive and are fast as fuck in every patch anyway (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

So the result is that now melee (1h) is way slower and has to keep more attention on the game than before.
Sure it's tankier, but what about spending the day on the game (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Before: 8-9k adb, 3.6/3.7 t/s, dwd in 31 minutes

After: 10.5k adb, 3 t/s at most that become 2.5 with continuous recasting of stances and stuff, dwd in 32-33 minutes

Millions of expenses to get slower than before, thanks to a patch.

And mages take 10-20 minutes like before.

A cool update (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)


About the hp thingy, let's assume I don't have much time to play one day, but I have half an hour.
On HV 0.84 I could do 3 SG arenas in 25 minutes on Hard and get some revenue.
On HV 0.85-0.86 I can go fuck myself and not play (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

This post has been edited by End Of All Hope: Sep 18 2017, 02:45

Where exactly did I say that high-level melee is cheap?

All I said was that mage builds are more expensive than melee. And that's just me stating a fact. You can get end-game slaughter armor pieces for less than 10m at auctions, whereas end-game cloth armor can go for upwards 30-40m a pop. And even without considering the prices for individual equipment pieces, the total cost of upgrading differs greatly.

I ran a quick calculation with Scremaz's spreadsheets. Total upgrade cost (bindings, catalysts, materials):

Melee (rapier + force shield + 5x slaughter armor) = 160m
Mage (staff + 4x phase + 1x cotton) = 323m (and that's without any Radiant pieces)

I assume you've been playing for years and have had several melee builds, so I'm sure you've spent way more than I have. But I've been playing for less than 6 months and I've only had one melee build, so that's where I'm coming from.

My leg agile or savage shadowdancer pieces did cost way more than 25m each. (Just ask stony about some bidwars back then). Back was before Peeless equipmnet. Cp just did cost 70k. No catalysts needed. That was also before light armor style got nerfed and so almost became unplayable in higher difficulties. And high-end slaughter pieces for less than 10m???

You should have been around some time ago... Before leg pieces had assured leg stats. Back then even a crap leg equipment was expensive to buy. Peerless quality sure had crashed the price of leg equiment.

I'm not complaining as a longliving game needs constant changes to keep players in line. I just don't and never will understand the mage players complaining about the costs and having to play a 'glass cannon' style.

This post has been edited by Mantra64: Sep 18 2017, 08:05

!!

That will make 1H a lot worse. (Not saying this is a bad thing).

Yeah, if the whole point is to spend more time than ever before playing HV. This would be the first time I've ever seen "tedious" as a selling point for a game...

My leg agile or savage shadowdancer pieces did cost way more than 25m each. (Just ask stony about some bidwars back then). Back was before Peeless equipmnet. Cp just did cost 70k. No catalysts needed.

funny fact: price for savage shadowdancer pieces starte to become reasonable when you and stony completed your sets (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)
guess you and him just paid the fact of wanting to be the first ones to have said pieces.

That was also before light armor style got nerfed and so almost became unplayable in higher difficulties.

really? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I'm not complaining as a longliving game needs constant changes to keep players in line. I just don't and never will understand the mage players complaining about the costs and having to play a 'glass cannon' style.

wanting to play could be a more fitting word. nobody forces someone to play a certain way. but high price and longer time needed to farm prof for a more efficient thing is only a balance thing. you cannot look left and right at the same time.

funny fact: price for savage shadowdancer pieces starte to become reasonable when you and stony completed your sets (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)
guess you and him just paid the fact of wanting to be the first ones to have said pieces.
really? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)
wanting to play could be a more fitting word. nobody forces someone to play a certain way. but high price and longer time needed to farm prof for a more efficient thing is only a balance thing. you cannot look left and right at the same time.

DW/light armor style has the same problem as 2H. Against a few monsters there is no problem. But when you are facing more than 4 monsters, you have to cure often. And even that is very risky as now you can't kill monsters as fast as before. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

That's my experience. I don't know how others are doing? Are there even some players left who play with DW/shade armor?

This post has been edited by Mantra64: Sep 18 2017, 12:56

I don't know how others are doing? Are there even some players left who play with DW/shade armor?

/me raises hand: rapier of slaugher + waki of nimble + full savage of shadowdancer. not my main set, but i still use it enough to have prof maxed.

brewdonkey: axe of slaugther + club of slaughter + full arcanist (guess he uses a bunch of deprecatives)

drksrpnt: club of slaughter + rapier of balance + fleet/shadowdancer (at least, according to his sig)

then probably a few other ones...

I use club of slaughter/rapier of balance with my Agile/Savage Shadowdancer set.

Right now I'm IWing some new pieces before I will forge them. Hope that it will become an improvement. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
Too bad that 2H became unplayable as estoc with agile shadowdancer would be a nice combo. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

However my main set has been 1H/power armor for some time now.

drksrpnt: club of slaughter + rapier of balance + fleet/shadowdancer (at least, according to his sig)

Full shadowdancer, 4piece savage and breastplate agile because I haven't found a good one yet. But yeah, pretty much that.

This update make me can cast ragnarok by just casting few dark spell in PFUDOR RE
Thanks tenboro

Lvl 465:

1H: 464.117 ST: 463.063
2H: 463.117 EL: 464.594
DW: 463.256 DV: 464.113
CA: 463.087 FB: 463.770
LA: 463.279 DP: 463.996
HA: 464.563 SP: 464.685

My leg agile or savage shadowdancer pieces did cost way more than 25m each. (Just ask stony about some bidwars back then). Back was before Peeless equipmnet. Cp just did cost 70k. No catalysts needed. That was also before light armor style got nerfed and so almost became unplayable in higher difficulties. And high-end slaughter pieces for less than 10m???

You should have been around some time ago... Before leg pieces had assured leg stats. Back then even a crap leg equipment was expensive to buy. Peerless quality sure had crashed the price of leg equiment.

I'm not complaining as a longliving game needs constant changes to keep players in line. I just don't and never will understand the mage players complaining about the costs and having to play a 'glass cannon' style.

There's been a lot of deflation in the price of all but the highest end non-mage gear.

I just "failed" the riddlemaster due to a timeout, while I barely had the time to watch the picture...
What the hell is the timeout now?