[X] My Assistant

why would people pass up this opportunity?

Because you snipe today and the item you sold next auction will get sniped.
In the end there is 0 actual gain since everyone is both a seller and a buyer.
With Super's current system you can bid early and get a free discout benefitting both you as a buyer and you as a seller.

Have people bear the pain by putting as high as possible ceiling when they set up their proxy bid?

Not everyone proxy bids (because they don't trust the system, because they fear people would try to raise till the max etc etc) and even if they do one may proxy bid thinking an item should be worth X while later realizing that it's worth much more.
If you check the "Price Check" thread you will see that the price checks are sometime pretty different between users.
The true worth of the item is realized only when all the interested parties have started to bid, not before so it's pretty much impossible to guess the perfect proxy bid at the start.

This post has been edited by Sapo84: Oct 29 2017, 15:45

See the bidtimes page. The fees are calculated from winning time, and then the peak discount is set such that the sum of the fees equals the sum of the discounts. It mostly depends on the number of late bidders on high-value items.

uhu. i was just going to ask you if sum of discounts equalling sum of taxes was intentional or not. if you say it this way, it seems that the system will indeed be self-sustaining.



alright, chitchat (and proxy bid motivations, which may or may not help superlatanium) apart i'd like to ask you a question ("you" as latanium in particular, but also to the audience in general): now that you saw this thing in action, what do you think about it? is it worth to continue using it? may it produce sensible improvements?

keep in mind this is highly experimentalm so the result we foresaw is nothing more than a hint. but still, out of respect for his efforts, it wouldn't be bad to give latanium some more reviews

Sniper NEVER damge sellers, it is an invention, so stop saying that, the new system is designed to help whining people and is unfair, period.

Need a prove? I reply to Sapo84 points:

CODE

QUOTE(Sapo84 @ Oct 28 2017, 00:37)
it fucking sucks that someone can't raise a bid because:
- he is working and doesn't have a way to make a bid
- he is sleeping since it's 3AM where it lives
- his mother had a car accidents and he's in the hospital waiting for good news (I know that's stupid but when someone says "you weren't there, that's your problem" it must be said that there may be really important reasons why someone can't be there playing at the pc in a specific moment)

In all this 3 cases... THE ORIGINAL USER IS UNABLE TO RAISE HIS FINAL BID!!!
That unless he use proxy bid that where made for that purpose.
If someone come and "snipe" an higher bet at the last moment in all 3 cases the users that have not proxy bid higher will lose the item BUT the seller will get the extra for the new bet.
If there are no snipers ok but there is not another bid so the seller take the last offer from the user offline.
And if someone don't use proxy bid or don't want to bid too high it his is fault and his problem and surely not a fault on sniper side, period.

You (referred to all who want this system) are just finding excuses to give penalities to some users and another help to users that already got one (proxy bid).

I was using Super's Auction because i was able to proxy bid on some tiems when i was not online while being able to play as i liked whei i was online but now this fuck all up for no good reason aside punishing a PERFECT LEGIT WAY TO PLAY (what you call sniping).

I will not like this discrimination, being me the one that snipe (never being able to do it) or the one that got sniped (different times).
Sniping it is NOT a problem, is only i the head of peoples that can't get what they want and try to change the system to hinder other users.

From this week on i will use Kedama Auction for all higher items, i will put here only items that cannot place on that (Kedama have more strict rules on equipment quality) and that i think can still get entry bid or just a bit more by chance.

I have said enough, and reading the various reply that make this system come true and defend it have only made my mind set to stone.

This is not my auction, no one force me to use it so i'll do exactly that, go on another one, i will miss the proxy bid system a lot but i will not start whining like a little kid because someone "stole my precious", that is what happening and implementing the system is just a bad way to give something to those whiners.

...

Sorry to me being rude but somtime i have to tell the truth about what i feel and think or i will blow up.

This post has been edited by Maharid: Oct 29 2017, 17:22

I like how so many people are so butthurt about "snipers". You have a perfect tool to neutralize the problem (ie proxy bidding) and yet you still want to punish them. Whether someone shows their intention to bid an item is none of everyone else's problem, especially if you proxy bid with your highest bid in mind.

The only time I find "sniping" annoying is when I want to manually bid and the sniper extends the auction time by the maximum amount.

edit: Imo the actual issue at hand is the inefficiency/inadequacy of proxy bidding. If it is working as intended none of this taxing would be required and "snipers" would just be bidding against a proxy that fully reflects the other buyers intentions.

This post has been edited by cirrux: Oct 29 2017, 20:34

Sorry to me being rude but somtime i have to tell the truth about what i feel and think or i will blow up.

we understood you don't like it. any feedback now, please?

Sniper NEVER damge sellers, it is an invention
[a lot of harsh words]

Ok, think what you want (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/mellow.gif)

Still, you should know that "we" mostly want all users having a good experience with auctions and the same possibility of winning items/equips without any discrimination.
When I abused Kedama auction's rules I explicity asked SakiRaFubuKi to revisite the rules a bit (see here).
Not sure why you are taking the moral high ground when we are all discussing a way to prevent people feeling fucked over because they got outbid at the last second.
(obviously you can think it's ok, I personally don't see any problem in different opinions)

Imo the actual issue at hand is the inefficiency/inadequacy of proxy bidding. If it is working as intended none of this taxing would be required and "snipers" would just be bidding against a proxy that fully reflects the other buyers intentions.

I think we all agree that in a perfect world proxy bids would resolve all problems (they did it for me at least, I set it, if no one outbids me I get the item without doing anything else, if someone outbids me there is always next week).
That's not what happens for a lot of reasons, people not trusting the system, people not really knowing that would be their real maximum bid etc etc.
I don't think there is a perfect solution to the problem.

@Scremaz: My feedback is all in that post, this system is uselle from the beginning cause is hare for the wrong reason.

@Sapo84: I'm responding to you but i am addressing all users that like and\or defend this sytem.
I have nothing against you and understand you're opinion but i think you see it by a single point ov view.

This system punish snipers for no senisble reason.
Let's take this to another level.

- Punish users that make a starting bid too low for an item\equipment value 8easyer on equipment)

As i said before putting a 50K starting bid on 1000 High-Grade Wood or similar is just a joke and if no one else bid it can result in a scam on the seller.

- Punish an user that bid on items that he don't need to use and just want for some other reason.

The thing that bafflem ore is all this venom against snipers while, in my opinion, the bigger problem are users with lot of money horading all items\equip they can for resell or just to remove them from the market and leave other users with no choice to get lower value item or extremely overpay for something.

This will surely damage sellers in some ways but it will also be fair for the vast majority of players that have no so much credits and awalys see the best items snatched from the same few players.

Those are two big problematic, why no one is really complaining about them and trying to fix them by preventing it?

Cause is market, anyone expect to go that way.

Do you know how many time i looked for an equip, willng to pay near every money i have to see that equip "stolen" from someone that also got 3 other items of the same type in the same auction, and in the auction before, and the one before and so on?

And sniper are worse?

So, now, start making rules that cut off ludricous starting bid and give players without thousands of millions (and\or hundreds of dollars) the possibility to get some good equipment at a fair price.

If not, please stop deminizing a type of user while the brutal truth is that some users with big mouths are making a great fuss about something and to make them shut up someone is getting an unfair help over the head of others.

This post has been edited by Maharid: Oct 29 2017, 22:09

You have a perfect tool to neutralize the problem (ie proxy bidding) and yet you still want to punish them. Whether someone shows their intention to bid an item is none of everyone else's problem, especially if you proxy bid with your highest bid in mind.

Imo the actual issue at hand is the inefficiency/inadequacy of proxy bidding. If it is working as intended none of this taxing would be required and "snipers" would just be bidding against a proxy that fully reflects the other buyers intentions.

In fact Superlatanium is the one who always recommended that proxy bidding is the best way to deal with snipers, yet he still wanted to try this experiment. His understanding of auctions is deep. The problem is that while proxy bidding is a great defense against snipers, it's not perfect as you said. There are still advantages to being able to wake up at the correct time and snipe.

Shifting the blame to the proxy bid system is legitimate, but it is difficult to program a robot to respond as intelligently as a human. Here is another idea then. One that may be hated, but should be considered. Strengthen the proxy system so that everyone who uses the proxy snipes simultaneously at the very last second. No responses allowed.

okay, all opinions in the above posts are clear. Please stop repeating them. Anyone else want to give their views?

My two cents: I'd say this is great way to steer the auction away from sniping. And as it is clear that the auctioneer dislikes sniping in his auction, I'd call this experiment a success.

You're all taking this too seriously. I don't always get along with super, but I gotta admit that he's being way too patient with many people in the last pages. Heck no one even forces him to do anything he does.

As someone who used to have the same kind of whining annd never-happy people too in the past, he gets my sympathy regarding all this. just let him do his thing and if you don't like it nobody forces you to participate in the auctions.

just let him do his thing and if you don't like it nobody forces you to participate in the auctions.

Hmm, but this isn't his shop. He's selling other people's stuff so he have to manage all this matter carefully and be patient. I suppose this is one of the reasons why there aren't too many auctioneers... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
Maybe a poll in the next auction (since 90% of the people that take part in the auctions never comment here, only the usual 5 guys...) could help. Like:

"As a buyer and also as a seller, do you care about snipers?"
1) No
2) Yes, but sometimes I do it too (tee hee~)
3) Yes, that's unforgivable. I would never do that!

2) Yes, but sometimes I do it too (tee hee~)

@decondelite: You are absolutely right and Super will have to do what he think is righ
For my side i will do exactly as you say, i'll use kedama Auction for now on, for both sell and bid.

But you also have to understand that i always used this auction to sell things cause i deemed it more usable and fair for all, now is no more the case and having to not use it anymore it sadden me.

Yes, i can still use it as always but it will not be intellectually corrct to do so, if i don't like something and i still support it i am part of the problem.

Hope this will change in the future or maybe SakiRaFubuKi will one day implement (re-implement?) a proxy bid system and i will think that a lot of users will just migrate here.

Personally I think it is too early to make conclusions about the success or failure of this new rule. You may need to observe the "amount of sniping" in 4 or 5 auctions in a row, and compare with the same amount before the new rule.

The only (immediate) conclusion I came to was that this mechanism is not effective against very rich players who do not mind paying high for an item (above average in stores, or the "common sense" of other players). (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) To be honest, I do not think any kind of mechanism would be effective against this kind of person. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Agreed, I still saw plenty of snipers at this auction. Based on the amount I saw I would say the experiment failed. However it is too early to say. As some bidders may not yet understand the rules. Also, the tax amounts can be increased to learn 'em better.

now that you saw this thing in action, what do you think about it? is it worth to continue using it? may it produce sensible improvements?

What it mostly depends on is how behavior changes on high-value items, which are pretty rare (and thus identifying cause and effect could be difficult for a while due to low sample size). Also, I wouldn't be that surprised if some people only start paying much attention to it once the snipers notice their CoD is different than their listed bid.

In all this 3 cases... THE ORIGINAL USER IS UNABLE TO RAISE HIS FINAL BID!!!
That unless he use proxy bid that where made for that purpose.
If someone come and "snipe" an higher bet at the last moment in all 3 cases the users that have not proxy bid higher will lose the item BUT the seller will get the extra for the new bet.
If there are no snipers ok but there is not another bid so the seller take the last offer from the user offline.
And if someone don't use proxy bid or don't want to bid too high it his is fault and his problem and surely not a fault on sniper side, period.

See

Not everyone proxy bids (because they don't trust the system, because they fear people would try to raise till the max etc etc) and even if they do one may proxy bid thinking an item should be worth X while later realizing that it's worth much more.
If you check the "Price Check" thread you will see that the price checks are sometime pretty different between users.
The true worth of the item is realized only when all the interested parties have started to bid, not before so it's pretty much impossible to guess the perfect proxy bid at the start.

As I said in the last reply to you, proxy bids help, but they're not perfect. If someone doesn't proxy bid high enough and realizes it later once they see multiple other users bidding higher, that's a perfectly understandable thing to misjudge. And then there are those who don't proxy bid at all, maybe because they don't understand English well enough. Those sorts of people could do better, but perfection shouldn't be expected - and when snipers exist, those people will lose the item even if they were willing to bid more, unless they counter-snipe. Those who snipe are attempting to stifle competition in bad faith. If you prefer to snipe, that's your decision (it used to be a winning strategy, after all).

But insisting that sniping is fair for everyone and that everyone who doesn't like sniping is a whiner conspiring to arbitrarily punish other users for the hell of it is quite absurd. If you would prefer a system that encourages sniping, no one's forcing you to participate in mine. If you want to contribute to the discussion, please use substantive arguments instead.

I don't claim to have the optimal answer. I think sniping inconveniences many users and that this is a step in the right direction, but I'm not 100% sure, and I'm open to persuasion (hence this thread and all the nice feedback, rather than me simply dictating rules).

- Punish users that make a starting bid too low for an item\equipment value 8easyer on equipment)

It's annoying, but those users are pretty much always just wasting their time. But if no one out of the 50+ potential auction participants cares enough to outbid them, that's a strong indication that the item actually isn't very attractive or valuable to buyers after all. (sellers are free to ask for a starting bid if they wish, and if they don't, they know they're running the risk of the market deciding that their item is worth less than they thought)

- Punish an user that bid on items that he don't need to use and just want for some other reason.

There are lots of items every week, and identifying what every potential bidder would use each item for would be a huge task. Even then, I don't think I should have the power to dictate how people use the stuff they buy; my role is basically just to act as a coordinator.

As for buying items for reselling, this is only my opinion, but I don't think there's much wrong with it. If an item doesn't even go for minimum bid, a seller will often just bazaar/salvage it. If a buyer bids low on it, and no one else out of all the auction participants raises the bid much, that's a good indication that the item isn't worth a whole lot. The seller might be happy because they get 50k or 100k on an item they would otherwise salvage. (If it was worth more, the seller is free to ask for a higher starting bid.) The buyer, who is the reseller, puts the item in a shop at a higher price. The reseller is taking the risk that he has judged the price correctly, the risk that no one will ever buy it, and is making the item publicly available for anyone interested, when it would have otherwise probably have gone to waste. The reseller does usually profit on the gamble, but in exchange they're providing a service, of listing the item and giving everyone an opportunity to check it out at any time, on any month (far longer than an auction's availability, which is 3 days max). Even if there was something wrong with it, I think it's not the auctioneer's business to interfere.

If there really are problem users who do nothing but try to make other users miserable, the mods and the community can raise awareness and do something about it (which can eventually lead to account suspension). If you think you see someone intentionally being an asshole all the time or doing things against the ToS, you can bring it up (with the mods, or in the proper thread).

I think we all agree that in a perfect world proxy bids would resolve all problems (they did it for me at least, I set it, if no one outbids me I get the item without doing anything else, if someone outbids me there is always next week).
That's not what happens for a lot of reasons, people not trusting the system, people not really knowing that would be their real maximum bid etc etc.
I don't think there is a perfect solution to the problem.

I doubt there is one one too but using patchwork like this antisniping rule is simply a stopgap measure. Focus should be on the proxy bidding system and increasing usability. Eg reducing barriers to entry, increasing flexibility in the automation etc.

The problem is that while proxy bidding is a great defense against snipers, it's not perfect as you said. There are still advantages to being able to wake up at the correct time and snipe.

Shifting the blame to the proxy bid system is legitimate, but it is difficult to program a robot to respond as intelligently as a human. Here is another idea then. One that may be hated, but should be considered. Strengthen the proxy system so that everyone who uses the proxy snipes simultaneously at the very last second. No responses allowed.

I quite like this idea over the current system mainly because it counteracts a perceived perk of sniping - taking advantage of time extensions.

The main problem is the following:
1. first serious bid near the end and start winning, that's being quite discourteous to everyone else, which is what I want to prevent.

1a. What I'm concerned about is that they're able to make such attempts at all, since any such last minute snipe attempt hurts those who have been bidding in good faith for the past 99% of the auction.

It has long been established that the auction actually starts during last few 30 minutes, or that has been my experience these years. So I'm perhaps accustomed to this behavior and it may actually be part of what I perceive to be auction culture.

The reason for punishing sniping is imo flawed. Getting sniped is the fault of the so called good faith buyer in the first place. He has the option of proxy bidding and his maximum bid being outbid is his own miscalcuation of the value of the item. The sniper should not be punished for the good faith buyers mistaken evaluation.

In any case, it'd probably be more straightforward to necessitate all potential bidders to indicate their intention to bid before the last 30min. Tax and reductions simply make the final price and bidding price overly conplex (and will be abused and rendered useless eventually, I'll just troll bid to get the reductions).

This can be enforced by a few options:
1. Those who did not indicate intention to not be allowed to bid
2. Setting a maximum bid amount over the price @-30min ( eg price @-30min is 1m, the sniper's max bid is 1.2m) (1.2 multiplier)
3. Longer time extensions for good faith buyers (eg sniper must bid with 5min of the good faith bidder, whereas the good faith buyer has 20min with automatic outbid notices)
4. Snipers are sniped at the last second by the proxy bid
Etc

maybe you can discourage snipers by sending each one of them a personal letter of indignation

I'm still not agreeing with this discount/tax part, but I think proxy bids should always get their winning time calculated from when the bid was set.

Like, if a sniper tries to outbid in the last minute but is not high enough, the proxy bid shouldn't count as "winning for 1 minute"

This post has been edited by End Of All Hope: Nov 2 2017, 00:43

Like, if a sniper tries to outbid in the last minute but is not high enough, the proxy bid shouldn't count as "winning for 1 minute"

It's not, it's cumulative over all the time the user has been winning the item. (otherwise there wouldn't be much point, right?)