[X] My Assistant

Never underestimate the importance of the bigger picture. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

I know. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Nevermind, I'm playing high on cough medicine. I meant OFC can crit.

Sakurai Kei has been defeated.
Orbital Friendship Cannon crits Sakurai Kei for 121689 void damage

Oh, it can. Hm, tbh i have never notice that.

When I use light armor, the stats are:

Fighting Style
One-Handed (slashing)
23% Overwhelming Strikes on hit
62% Counter-Attack on block/parry
Physical Attack
2227 attack base damage
154.1% hit chance
25% crit chance / +50 % damage
7.3% attack speed bonus
Magical Attack
545 magic base damage
89.3% hit chance
0% crit chance / +50 % damage
147.3% mana cost modifier
0% cast speed bonus
Vitals
8414 health points
809 magic points
+14 magic regen per tick
480 spirit points
+3 spirit regen per tick
Defense
56.1% physical mitigation
51% magical mitigation
16.3% evade chance
34.9% block chance
25.1% parry chance
46.6% resist chance
Compromise
94.6 interference
33.3 burden
Specific Mitigation
0.0% fire
0.0% cold
0.0% elec
0.0% wind
0.0% holy
0.0% dark
25.1% crushing
27.4% slashing
13.9% piercing
0.0% void
Spell Damage Bonus
0.0% fire
0.0% cold
0.0% elec
15.0% wind
0.0% holy
0.0% dark
Effective Primary Stats
278 strength
318 dexterity
297 agility
292 endurance
179 intelligence
233 wisdom
Effective Proficiency
250 one-handed
78 two-handed
80 dual wielding
78 staff
78 cloth armor
226 light armor
235 heavy armor
147 elemental
165 divine
167 forbidden
154 deprecating
250 supportive

And when I use heavy armor:

Fighting Style
One-Handed (slashing)
24% Overwhelming Strikes on hit
62% Counter-Attack on block/parry
Physical Attack
2242 attack base damage
139.9% hit chance
13.9% crit chance / +51 % damage
0% attack speed bonus
Magical Attack
553 magic base damage
89.3% hit chance
0% crit chance / +50 % damage
167.7% mana cost modifier
0% cast speed bonus
Vitals
8829 health points
773 magic points
+14 magic regen per tick
471 spirit points
+3 spirit regen per tick
Defense
63% physical mitigation
57.6% magical mitigation
0% evade chance
34.9% block chance
25% parry chance
9.3% resist chance
Compromise
135.3 interference
94.6 burden
Specific Mitigation
0.0% fire
0.0% cold
0.0% elec
0.0% wind
0.0% holy
14.9% dark
28.2% crushing
40.3% slashing
39.6% piercing
0.0% void
Spell Damage Bonus
0.0% fire
0.0% cold
0.0% elec
15.0% wind
0.0% holy
0.0% dark
Effective Primary Stats
299 strength
314 dexterity
233 agility
304 endurance
184 intelligence
233 wisdom
Effective Proficiency
250 one-handed
78 two-handed
80 dual wielding
78 staff
78 cloth armor
226 light armor
235 heavy armor
147 elemental
165 divine
167 forbidden
154 deprecating
250 supportive

Not so much difference I think.

[mod edit]: a bit of formatting, please

This post has been edited by Scremaz: Jan 13 2019, 12:56

Edit: OH, just understood what Uncle meant about better with more to multiply - agreed, if there's less damage/crit chance from power armor then butcher becomes comparatively better than fat.

Unless he changed something, Uncle has 11k atk with 0 slaughter armor pieces, just power of protection and warding.
But of course you have to look at your own stats to make decisions for yourself.

Unless he changed something, Uncle has 11k atk with 0 slaughter armor pieces, just power of protection and warding.

So again the uncles uses this so he has no idea what he is talking about argument? That doesnt make any sense, but what ever.

i'm a new player .
i dont really know how to play.

i'm a new player .
i dont really know how to play.

Feel free to ask for advice in the ask-the-expert thread.

and this is a good place to start: https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?s=&am...t&p=4999403, many tips here.

Unless he changed something, Uncle has 11k atk with 0 slaughter armor pieces, just power of protection and warding.
But of course you have to look at your own stats to make decisions for yourself.

Yeah - personally I agree with you and think b4f5 probably is better than b5f4 even with my pretty lame 1h equipment, though it really doesn't matter unless meta changes since I no longer go melee. I was just saying that I just understood what Uncle meant about it being a multiplier and so the more abd the more relative benefit fatality confers.

Edit: And of course practically the difference is likely so small that either is fine (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by magiclamp: Jan 14 2019, 06:36

in my personal, poorly informed opinion, i would aim for O5/B4 as the ideal IW for 1H

according to research for 1H, B5 and F5 add about 2.3% to damage per hit (with fatality affecting direct hits only) and O5 increases overall hit rate by about 1.3%. the numbers seem to be in clear favour of butcher and fatality, but rather than looking at the raw numbers, consider their actual effectiveness: how many times is a 2.3% increase in damage really going to make a monster take one less hit to kill, compared to the effect of 1.3% less attacks that miss completely? yes, butcher affects counters too, but with O5/B4 you still get plenty of that, and i do not fancy testing the merits of O4/B5 vs O5/B4 any time soon

Ehm, Overpower for 1H? Is it possible you completly forgot about Overwhelming Strikes and that every single counter attack has the chance to stun a monster? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

you're taking either sssss2 or me for an idiot. his data comes from real-life experience, taking into account the effect of overwhelming strikes as well as prioritisation of stunned targets. these are the reason the effect of overpower is so small compared to other styles, but it is still not negligible

Wow, easy. I was just asking a question, i did take no one for anything. But when i look at the numbers of the PFest i just finished. 64845 hits to 1613 misses i am not sure the effect of overpower would be big enough to compensate for the lost damage.

in my personal, poorly informed opinion, i would aim for O5/B4 as the ideal IW for 1H

That's what I've done and I really, really don't regret it. I have O5B3SS1 (yeah, SS1 kicked in in the end...) and frankly it does wonders.
I've decided to go that way because I told myself that the benefit of F4 is so stupidly little (especially on a power build), that I might aswell make sure that I do hit the monster instead.
Moreover, if counterattacks are pretty much guaranteed in arenas, it is not a given during PFFEST and IW: it is very likely that the monster you're attacking directly is not stunned.

In any case, I did feel a world of difference between a weapon that hs OP5 and one that doesn't. What's the use of a powerful weapon that cannot land hits reliably?

This post has been edited by decondelite: Jan 14 2019, 09:16

Wow, easy. I was just asking a question, i did take no one for anything.

no worries, i'm just being the twat that i am. it's up to you to interpret the data as you see fit

What's the use of a powerful weapon that cannot land hits reliably?

that's what i'm thinking, and let's not forget that missing a certain number of attacks is worse than losing the equivalent amount of damage: you also lose out on the chance to apply your weapon's status effect

I've never noticed any of my attacks being parried in 1H style with no overpower, but I'm sure a few must be and I don't notice, especially now that I've mostly transitioned into the "sweeping the screen" spread style. In DW rapier+waki with no overpower it is a bitch.

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Wait, now that I look at Research for 1H again, the overpower section data looks suspicious. Why is the unstunned parry rate with no overpower only 9.2518%...it should be at least 10% with the PFUDOR bonus alone, right? And in fact we might expect most monsters to have a PFUDOR parry rate of 19%...

Parry = 1 - (1 - min(10 , (DEX/ 100) , (DEX - Level) / 75) / 100) * (1 - chaos_interception_rank * 0.5%)

scaled_stats = int(0.01 * base_stat * monster_level + (monster_level ^ 1.076675) * 0.3325)

Assuming PL 1000~2250 monster's base dexterity ≈ 200 the scaled DEX at level 456 as in the Research thread would be about 1150 which suggests most monsters have 9~10% parry before the PFUDOR bonus.

Also, overpower 5 reduced enemy parries from 9.2518% to 6.0557% which is a 6.0557/9.2518=0.6545, so his overpower 5 granted him 35% counter-parry?! It's supposed to be 20% counter-parry...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Overwhelming Strikes also provides counter-parry, it all makes sense.

O5 increases overall hit rate by about 1.3%. the numbers seem to be in clear favour of butcher and fatality, but rather than looking at the raw numbers, consider their actual effectiveness: how many times is a 2.3% increase in damage really going to make a monster take one less hit to kill, compared to the effect of 1.3% less attacks that miss completely?

Yeah from the beginning most of us thought that overpower's 1.3% is quite significant. Plus it gives more overcharge for spirit stance, and penetrated armors.

Uncle, what he's thinking is that overpower is surely at least a 1.3% improvement as on paper, but Butcher may not be the 2.3% paper improvement. And Fatality even more so. The reason is, suppose we had Daemon Duality 100. And we kill every monster in 1 hit. Now Butcher is useless, right?

So the question is, how close are we to the Daemon Duality 100 ultimate being? I might argue though, that we are still very far. Perhaps 2.3% to 2.2% far....

What fraction of enemies out there fall into a gap region where a 2.3% increase in damage never makes a difference? I would say, almost none. Because the randomness in our plain attack damage is big, like 1.5 times, plus there are criticals, penetrated armor, etc.

Until we are basically one hitting a significant fraction of monsters without a critical, we shouldn't devalue the 2.3% benefit of Butcher too much. But a super powerful 1H player might indeed one hit quite a few monsters with a critical, so it could be justified to significantly devalue the 2.3% benefit of Fatality. (And if Fatality is worthless then so is Savage armor).

One source of real world data is the DwD thread. I've been posting my times there in part for this purpose. So far, increasing my damage by a certain amount has yielded equal benefit in turns. It's only recently starting to plateau slightly. However DwD is not an ordinary arena. For me the plateau is caused by one hit Vital Strike overkills. Since my DwD times continued to improve linearly well after I became capable of overkills, that suggests we should not be too quick to devalue Butcher.

Oh and people may be too quick to dismiss Swift Strike, it's the trickiest to quantify. I might only be its second biggest supporter. Fudo Masamune found that Haste improves his clear times, at least in difficult challenges like grindfest and IW. Better defense and ease of playing increased his t/s more than the loss in turns. When I scaled his Haste down to Swift Strike, it turned out to be a slightly better improvement than Butcher.

assuming an ideal even distribution of monster HP and damage rolls, and a large enough sample size, the time saved by butcher is equal or very close to its damage boost, and i still consider butcher to be a very useful potency. but with hidden variables and thresholds involved, i can't be as sure of it having its full effect as with overpower, and with the additional benefits given by overpower the full effect becomes difficult to calculate and dependent on equipment choice. so in the end it's mostly speculation and personal preference, and everybody is wrong about everything

let's look at an extreme example:

monsters have between <<1% and 200% health, distributed evenly. your attack always deals 100% damage. you 1-hit 50% and 2-hit the other 50% of monsters. against n total monsters, the total number of hits is (1*0.5+2*0.5)*n = 1.5*n

now you gain 10% attack damage. instead if 1-hitting all monsters up to 100% health, you now 1-hit those up to 110%. this means you 1-hit 55% of monsters and 2-hit 45%. against n monsters, you need (1*0.55+2*0.45)*n = 1.45*n hits

the reduction in hits needed from 10% damage boost would be (1.5-1.45)/1.5 = 3.3%

This post has been edited by sickentide: Jan 14 2019, 12:35

What if you used your script to log all damage dealt, and also log the amount of HP overkill on the final blow of each monster? Could that give us a number that could we could use to calculate Butcher waste?

I guess that's not a correct method of analysis either. We might jump to the conclusion that monster A wasted X damage as overkill, yet monster B was underkilled and could have benefited from X more damage. Hmm.

I don't need calculations to know if my playstyle is satisfying or not. I just see how often I need to heal, how smooth it feels and how much time it takes me to clear a challenge. As for the effectiveness of overpower, I wasn't thinking about how it can help avoiding to waste turns and ultimately lead to a nasty SP blast in our face, but it does make sense. Haste is not stupid either in that matter, provided one can generate enough overcharge, but I'm not sure the overall clear time can get reduced that way.

At least I can confirm that a bullshit high defense saves quite a lot of time, which isn't necessarily true for 5-10% more damage.

I don't need calculations to know if my playstyle is satisfying or not.

ok, but i'm having fun with this. some more silly numbers:

monsters have 100 < health <= 300. your attacks deal 100, 2-hitting one half and 3-hitting the other half for 2.5*n total hits

raising damage by 50% lets you 1-hit 25% and 2-hit the rest for 1.75*n hits, or a time save of 30%

raising damage by 10% gives you (1*0.05 + 2*0.55 + 3*0.4)*n = 2.35*n, a 6% save

a 1% damage increase gives you (1*0.005 + 2*0.505 + 3*0.49)*n = 2.485*n, saving 0.6%

now someone tell me if this is close enough to the real situation and compare it to an ideal model where the probability of taking a set number of hits approaches 0 as said number approaches infinity and you can elegantly calculate the limit of total hits saved per damage increase to be exactly 1:1 as damage increase approaches 0