[X] My Assistant

The problem with it being possible to enter a bid even if you don't have the money to cover it is that it enables risk-free shill bidding.
E.g., the current high bid for noodly appendages is 150,000c.
The bot profit share at the moment is 24,001c, so the second-highest bid is 48k.
Somebody could have an accomplice put in a bid for 149,999c so that the sell price is 150,000c and they get 75k instead.
The shill bidder is not even at risk of buying an unwanted item for 149,999c because they can transfer their credits to their co-worker beforehand.

Before bot profit share, shill bidding was only useful to troll people. With bot profit sharing, it can be used to make money.

Alternatively, they can create a dummy account through a proxy and do it all themselves, without credit transfers linking them to the shill account. This approach has its pluses and minuses. At the moment, dummy accounts are against the rules, whereas just using an accomplice is not.

This post has been edited by mechafujoshi: Jul 1 2012, 01:50

The problem with it being possible to enter a bid even if you don't have the money to cover it is that it enables risk-free shill bidding.
E.g., the current high bid for noodly appendages is 150,000c.
The bot profit share at the moment is 24,001c, so the second-highest bid is 48k.
Somebody could have an accomplice put in a bid for 149,999c so that the sell price is 150,000c and they get 75k instead.
The shill bidder is not even at risk of buying an unwanted item for 149,999c because they can transfer their credits to their co-worker beforehand.

Before bot profit share, shill bidding was only useful to troll people. With bot profit sharing, it can be used to make money.

And it's the fault of the people who bid 150k.

New form of botting incoming: Autoitemshopbot bots.
Wait the bid for an item to reach a certain threshold, place a bid one credit below that, then sell a bunch of that item 1 by 1 for massive profit. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And it's the fault of the people who bid 150k.

New form of botting incoming: Autoitemshopbot bots.
Wait the bid for an item to reach a certain threshold, place a bid one credit below that, then sell a bunch of that item 1 by 1 for massive profit. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Wat he mention will be extremely profitable for people with dupe accounts thou theres still a risk of him buying his own item if the top bid went away. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And it's the fault of the people who bid 150k.

What if the top bid wasn't unreasonable?

An auction system isn't going to work if shill bidding is allowed.

You don't want to have to make a subjective judgement as to whether the top bid is reasonable when deciding whether to enforce a shill bidding rule.

thou theres still a risk of him buying his own item if the top bid went away.

Not if the dupe accounts don't have to have any credits to place a bid.

This post has been edited by mechafujoshi: Jul 1 2012, 02:08

What if the top bid wasn't unreasonable?

An auction system isn't going to work if shill bidding is allowed.

You don't want to have to make a subjective judgement as to whether the top bid is reasonable when deciding whether to enforce a shill bidding rule.

But there is WTS. If the bid is reasonable, then the dupers wouldn't be able to make money from profit sharing since its only 50% of the winning bid. It would just be better for them to sell in the WTS section then.

What if the top bid wasn't unreasonable?

An auction system isn't going to work if shill bidding is allowed.

You don't want to have to make a subjective judgement as to whether the top bid is reasonable when deciding whether to enforce a shill bidding rule.
Not if the dupe accounts don't have to have any credits to place a bid.

You can always rely on exploiting idiots to get rich.

Really, why are you complaining? They should be fully aware of the consequences when bidding ridiculously.

http://hentaiverse.org/pages/showequip.php...;key=6c7f657eac (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

This only works if the legit 150k bid is placed in the first place, though.

The original idea seems to have been a proxy bidding system where the bot bids on peoples' behalf against the other buyers who are buying at the time, and won't go up to the maximum if it doesn't have to.

It would work more like it was intended to if people were required to put their maximum bid times the number of items bid on on deposit when creating a bot task, since shill bidding on high value items would at least carry some risk and require the account to be funded with credits.

People shouldn't bid on items that they aren't willing or able to pay for, and requiring a deposit helps enforce that.

Some people want a working, robust automated auction system, and other people want something that they can exploit, it seems.

And in the case of trophies, it's not possible to go to WTS because they're only tradable through the bazaar.

This post has been edited by mechafujoshi: Jul 1 2012, 03:28

The original idea seems to have been a proxy bidding system where the bot bids on peoples' behalf against the other buyers who are buying at the time, and won't go up to the maximum if it doesn't have to.

It would work more like it was intended to if people were required to put their maximum bid times the number of items bid on on deposit when creating a bot task, since shill bidding on high value items would at least carry some risk and require the account to be funded with credits.

People shouldn't bid on items that they aren't willing or able to pay for, and requiring a deposit helps enforce that.

Some people want a working, robust automated auction system, and other people want something that they can exploit, it seems.

And in the case of trophies, it's not possible to go to WTS because they're only tradable through the bazaar.

Not having enough credits doesn't necessary mean you can't pay for it. Like WTS and WTBs, you can sell other things to make up for the deficit.

Personally, I don't mind seeing those bidders without enough credits getting the item and sending their credits into the negatives. Nothing wrong with that.

http://hentaiverse.org/pages/showequip.php...;key=6c7f657eac (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Fuck me! You thinking of selling that. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not having enough credits doesn't necessary mean you can't pay for it. Like WTS and WTBs, you can sell other things to make up for the deficit.

The account bidding isn't required to have any collateral either.
Credits are easy for the system to quantify and liquidity isn't an issue; it isn't guaranteed that the bidder will be able to sell inventory in a timely fashion for as much as they hoped, and they should have done it before making a commitment to pay.

Personally, I don't mind seeing those bidders without enough credits getting the item and sending their credits into the negatives. Nothing wrong with that.

How far into the negatives? Infinite interest-free credit for everyone is of course not what we are contemplating here, because it would cause infinite inflation. The fact that people bidding in WTS don't have to put credits in escrow and are on the honor system as to timely payment is good enough for a simple economy, but it's still a problem waiting to happen.

The account bidding isn't required to have any collateral either.
Credits are easy for the system to quantify and liquidity isn't an issue; it isn't guaranteed that the bidder will be able to sell inventory in a timely fashion for as much as they hoped, and they should have done it before making a commitment to pay.
How far into the negatives? Infinite interest-free credit for everyone is of course not what we are contemplating here, because it would cause infinite inflation. The fact that people bidding in WTS don't have to put credits in escrow and are on the honor system as to timely payment is good enough for a simple economy, but it's still a problem waiting to happen.

Well, currently I don't think there's a penalty for having your credits in the negatives, however there can be one, I guess. It is really up to Tenboro, though, to decide whether things are okay or not.

bazaar Bot System just implemented, allow time for tenboro to work things out

Edit : In the Meantime just use it to ur advantage

This post has been edited by ExTe: Jul 1 2012, 04:47

Hey Tenboro I found a glitch or bug I not what you would call it.
For some reason my infusion were in my potion slot.

Hey Tenboro I found a glitch or bug I not what you would call it.
For some reason my infusion were in my potion slot.

Infusions/scrolls can be put in general item slots. They just won't replenish like when they're put in infusion/scroll slots.

Yeah, I thought about that. And it basically went like.. well, if they are stupid enough to overbid despite the explicit warning and the obviousness of how stupid it is, then fuck'em.

Think of loaners of last resort. This is perfectly fair, I think. Mostly for that reasoning but not in such mean words. Maybe they're not stupid but just impatient and got the bandwidth to spare for H@H? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

R.I.P store-bought crystals

Well now at least some of them filter through to the shop (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , but definitely no vigor or fort

Imagine how complex the shilling and scamming would be if "short" and "long" selling was added to the HV marketplace bot.....

Ignoring long and short selling, most of the mechanism is already there for the Moogles to make even more profit simply by using their position. Currently, the Moogles don't charge users to use the Bazaar Bot. If they did charge a fee of 7%, then the Moogles could make money on BOTH the sales as well as their positions. This is what goes on in real life in the commodities exchange markets and is not even up to the level of short/long selling which would be quite a bit more complex than the example below.

EXAMPLE:

This background example is wordy in order to illustrate the mechanism first in order to ensure everyone has the general idea of what a middle position is in an open market where information itself is treated as a valuable commodity. BazaarBot Buyer sets buy bid price of 10 units of Fortitude crystals at 51c each. Bazaarbot Seller sets sell price of 55c each for 100 units of Fortitude crystals.

The sale of 10 units of Fortitude to the buyer at 51c each OCCURS from the seller at 55c each!!!

That's because the Moogle Corporation bought 10 units at 55c (total value 550c), sold those 10 units at 51c (total value 510c), and collected transaction fees of (510c*7%) and (550c *7%) due to its transaction fee of 7% levied upon the bot users. The Moogle Corporation ends up with a net profit of 33c by using their market position on the cash flow. In a commodities market, some (not all) of the investment bankers do things like this in real life because they deal with "cash flow" and not the absolute sale of the item (buy low, sell high) as a way of making money. Sure, "buy high, sell low, profit" is not intuitive in a direct sense, but it is a way of making money. Unscrupulous investment banks are known to "churn" customer accounts to wring out profits (thus resulting in your mutual fund results underperforming what you otherwise think you should be getting). Generally, this occurs AFTER the first year or two of the mutual funds life, because during the first year, by not churning, the results of the fund look good and attract lots of investors. Once the fund has a good number of investors in it, the churning then starts up.

As to whether or not the sales occur, the Chief Pony could add in a simple profit percentage check. So, if today the minimum daily profit was to be 1% on market transactions, he could simply type that into his adminstrator's display. By the way, 1% daily is an obscene real-life profit if you think about what it represents as an equivalent annual interest rate return on an averaged daily principal. Real life investment houses typically prepurchase stocks or units in items that are expected to sell, and then await buyers to show up. By doing so, they take advantage of their position and even if the profit is only 1/8 of a point, when it is compounded by the large number of total transacted units each day, the profit is actually substantial.

Anyways, this Moogle Corporation type of marketplace is possible for the Chief Pony to create. It all depends on whether or not the Moogles need this source of additional profit to fund their healthcare system!!!

Imagine how complex the shilling and scamming would be if "short" and "long" selling was added to the HV marketplace bot.....

Ignoring long and short selling, most of the mechanism is already there for the Moogles to make even more profit simply by using their position. Currently, the Moogles don't charge users to use the Bazaar Bot. If they did charge a fee of 7%, then the Moogles could make money on BOTH the sales as well as their positions. This is what goes on in real life in the commodities exchange markets and is not even up to the level of short/long selling which would be quite a bit more complex than the example below.

EXAMPLE:

This background example is wordy in order to illustrate the mechanism first in order to ensure everyone has the general idea of what a middle position is in an open market where information itself is treated as a valuable commodity. BazaarBot Buyer sets buy bid price of 10 units of Fortitude crystals at 51c each. Bazaarbot Seller sets sell price of 55c each for 100 units of Fortitude crystals.

The sale of 10 units of Fortitude to the buyer at 51c each OCCURS from the seller at 55c each!!!

That's because the Moogle Corporation bought 10 units at 55c (total value 550c), sold those 10 units at 51c (total value 510c), and collected transaction fees of (510c*7%) and (550c *7%) due to its transaction fee of 7% levied upon the bot users. The Moogle Corporation ends up with a net profit of 33c by using their market position on the cash flow. In a commodities market, some (not all) of the investment bankers do things like this in real life because they deal with "cash flow" and not the absolute sale of the item (buy low, sell high) as a way of making money. Sure, "buy high, sell low, profit" is not intuitive in a direct sense, but it is a way of making money. Unscrupulous investment banks are known to "churn" customer accounts to wring out profits (thus resulting in your mutual fund results underperforming what you otherwise think you should be getting). Generally, this occurs AFTER the first year or two of the mutual funds life, because during the first year, by not churning, the results of the fund look good and attract lots of investors. Once the fund has a good number of investors in it, the churning then starts up.

As to whether or not the sales occur, the Chief Pony could add in a simple profit percentage check. So, if today the minimum daily profit was to be 1% on market transactions, he could simply type that into his adminstrator's display. By the way, 1% daily is an obscene real-life profit if you think about what it represents as an equivalent annual interest rate return on an averaged daily principal. Real life investment houses typically prepurchase stocks or units in items that are expected to sell, and then await buyers to show up. By doing so, they take advantage of their position and even if the profit is only 1/8 of a point, when it is compounded by the large number of total transacted units each day, the profit is actually substantial.

Anyways, this Moogle Corporation type of marketplace is possible for the Chief Pony to create. It all depends on whether or not the Moogles need this source of additional profit to fund their healthcare system!!!

TL;DR

I honestly have no idea why the hell people are so obsessed with the Item Shop Bot.