[X] My Assistant

In my experience it is rare to get a second translator check. It's not like we have an overflow of translators. Requiring two translators two look at the same dojin would, imho, double the bounty costs and execution time, for little benefit. I appreciate perfection, but in the ~75 bounties I've had commissioned, none went through a secondary check that I am aware of, and none had raised significant complains (again, that I am aware of).

Now, I'd never say no to a translator check if it was offered, but I wouldn't go out of my way demanding it. At the same time, simple proofreading to ensure that things sound right in English is helpful, as what I HAVE seen was not people complaining about imprecise translation, but people complaining about poor English (think, CGRascal's work...).

Well, the number and form of complaints isn't a very good way to judge the quality of a translation. The vast majority of readers has no knowledge of Japanese and thus couldn't complain about accuracy even if they wanted to, while most translators I know aren't suspicious enough to check them against the raw (or they just don't have the energy). In systems like these that draw on the userbase for contributions, suspicion is very important.

Regarding your bounties in particular, I'd like to bring up this book. While I wouldn't go so far as to call it terrible, I would definitely not call it good, either. There are many more mistakes and issues than I would expect from anything done for money, real or otherwise - among those, the single best line in the book (in my opinion) was left untranslated. While the general idea is there, the character of the work just isn't retained very well, and especially for H-manga, that's very important - after all, if we were only after the general idea, why would we need actual scanlations as opposed to summaries?

I'm guessing that no one thought to check this simply because the translator actually attempted the longer text passages. While the effort is admirable, effort must not be confounded with actual quality. You don't need to be acting in bad faith to mess something up.

Also, it's funny that you mention CGRascal, because I see people complaining about his translations' lack of accuracy all the time.

This post has been edited by digitXSX: Mar 4 2012, 13:38

Necro-time. Resurrecting this thread because it's relevant history, and there are EHCOVE issues to discuss.

We are doing good - 228 EHCOVE releases in the galleries, and about 100 this year, That's a nicely accelerating trend, given our first official release was [Itoyoko] Dragon Pink Volume 1 [English] [EHCOVE] 3 years ago in November 2011 (see our first credit page here). And before someone asks, older Dragonempeor galleries labelled as such were labelled as EHCOVE post-factum, and without any discussions - as far I as am aware, no other EHCOVE member, including myself, have chosen to label pre-EHCOVE galleries as EHCOVE. Not that it's a major issue, just setting the historical record straight, for when we are going to be written about in encyclopedias and such. Yeah, right. Anyway, I mentioned we have stuff to discuss, so let's get on to business.

1) PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore has not been active since 15th May 2014 and is clearly not managing the EHCOVE releases thread. The solution is either to get an EHCOVE member (me? any other volunteers?) mod powers to be able to edit that thread, or to retire it and replace with a new one.

2) We are a very loosely knitted group, with few rules and obligations. I don't intend to change it much, but I do have a few small concerns. Primary, not having any rules nor official member rooster means that we risk the EHCOVE logo being adopted by people not adhering to our quality standards. Now, we have, fortunately, not released any 1- or 2- started galleries; in fact all but two of our releases are ranked as 4 stars plus. But as we keep expanding ( (and I get PMs about what is EHCOVE and how one joins it more and more often), the odds grow that some form of trouble will raise up. So we need to agree on the (few) rules, on who are EHCOVE members, and on how does one become an EHCOVE member. So, in order, here are my thoughts proposed rules - the latter of which are certainly open for discussion.

3) What does it mean to be an EHCOVE member? As an uploader, you get to label your releases as EHCOVE. Why bother? As our popularity grows, this means cooler bragging rights, but also benefits of drawing more new editors/TLs/proofreaders/etc. here. Indeed, this "community building" is, I think, our biggest asset. I have nothing against those who use our forums and release stuff without using our brand, but many of them are, I think, free-riders on our success - they can use our forums to ask for advice, to recruit team members, yet they don't draw people back in. I don't intend to become a nazi and stop them; live and let live - but I do believe that it is those of us who use the EHCOVE tag who help build this community more than others.

4) This leads me to a rule #1. Each EHCOVE release should include credits, which at minimum should link back to the e-hentai.org site, preferably the forums, and which should invite editors, TLs, proofreaders, and such, to join us. We are growing. Let's keep it that way.

5) Rule #2. Just a technicality, but: "Any EHCOVE release should be fully released on e-hentai.org site".

6) Rule #3. Quality. EHCOVE releases should adhere to reasonable standards of translation and editing standards, defined as "people don't flame our releases for sucking". I am open to revising this, but that's the mostly unspoken rule that served us well. Each EHCOVE project manager (i.e. bounty poster) can add their own extra rules; I list mine here but they are more my preferences than anything I'd care to enforce on other's projects.

7) Rule #4. Here, I start innovating, so shoot me down if you think that's not necessary / to burdensome. To ensure that this minimum level is met, each script by a new translator should be posted in the COVE forums for review by more experienced translators, and should not be moved to editing before receiving approval from at least one of them. Similarly, an editing job by a new editor should be posted as a downloadable archive/private gallery first, and not made public until approved by at least one experienced editor or translator.

8) Who is an EHCOVE member? Anyone uploader listed by People's in the old release thread, plus himself. Plus Shinko.Aelith. Plus any editor (Ser Maggot) and TL (ultimaflaral) and proofreder (not that we have any dedicated ones, which is a weakness to work on...) who is highly active in working on EHCOVE projects (has worked on at least 3) and cares to officially join by saying they want to. Which gives them no obligations, and no special rights outside feeling good, being able to brag/advertise EHCOVE in the sig, and maybe having a wee bit more pull power around here, for what little it's worth (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) For uploaders, any uploader who is using the forums to organize their team, and whose projects adhere to minimum quality levels as described above, can join in the same manner.

Hmmm. What else. Thoughts about people re-labeling their older uploads as EHCOVE upon joining? I'd say we shouldn't allow this, but I have no strong feelings here either.

Anyway, what I'd like us to agree within the near future is to have a list of members, whatever rules we like, and have a likely new sticky thread here with said rules, list of members and releases. Sounds good?

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Nov 28 2014, 04:00

I like most of the ideas here. I like the idea of being a little more tightly knit as a group. I like the idea of a current members list (out of curiosity if nothing else). The credits page has always been a good idea, and quality standards are sensible, though I don't really see it as a problem at the moment.

I do have one comment about the translation standards for new translators. I haven't been around all that long myself as a translator. I remember what it was like a year ago when I was unranked, untested, and pretty freaking nervous about the idea of submitting my own scripts for actual use, and more so for the bounties that made it clear scripts would be checked. Obviously I got over it, but the idea of being judged by someone else was intimidating.

Now I'm not suggesting that scripts by new translators shouldn't be checked. I would, however, suggest that it be done privately by PM. At least its less public that way, and thus theoretically less intimidating.

UF

I'll give you moral support guys, you're doing a great job for the community (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

I do have one comment about the translation standards for new translators. I haven't been around all that long myself as a translator. I remember what it was like a year ago when I was unranked, untested, and pretty freaking nervous about the idea of submitting my own scripts for actual use, and more so for the bounties that made it clear scripts would be checked. Obviously I got over it, but the idea of being judged by someone else was intimidating.

Now I'm not suggesting that scripts by new translators shouldn't be checked. I would, however, suggest that it be done privately by PM. At least its less public that way, and thus theoretically less intimidating.

UF

I hear you. I guess we can leave this as it is, until we really have a problem here. There's the "don't fix what's not broken" point to consider, certainly.

I'll give you moral support guys, you're doing a great job for the community (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif).

We appreciate your moral support (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Damn this thread is old.. I never noticed it. Anyway, I just have one opinion on EHCove and I'm not really expecting you guys to do anything about it, but whenever I look at one of your editing projects or releases it's schoolgirls or loli. Needs more MILF.

Some serious organizing could help this group, and I'm not just saying that someone motivated should keep track of member activity. Its better for a covey to be held together by goals, not individual heads liable to go missing whenever they're needed. Because once you get over the 'hey let's make our own exlusive group' phase, people are going to ask what being in your group means. And then you start can worrying about getting the members organized, putting incentives into joining and establishing rules to filter out the undesirables.

For example, EHCOVE could be a covey aiming to;

• Promote e-hentai.org and its community.
• Encourage learning through erotic Japanese media.
• Uphold quality in scanlating said erotic Japanese media.

There shouldnt be a problem with the members coming and going as they please, but yeah things stagnate when theres no active recruitment. The bounty page can also be used for that. A recruitment spiel has to go beyond banners though, when the question 'what does your group stand for?' pops up.

But hey, if everyone's cool with keeping it to a list of names in a credit page thats fine I guess.

For example, EHCOVE could be a covey aiming to;

• Promote e-hentai.org and its community.
• Encourage learning through erotic Japanese media.
• Uphold quality in scanlating said erotic Japanese media.

As I mentioned above, the first goal is very much part of what I see EHCOVE as being about. Through I don't know how can we do it better beyond what we do now, which is a) advertise the site through credit pages and (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) maintain active threads here for editors, translators, scanners, and offer help and advice to those who ask.

I am rather curious about your second goal idea. Is there any group out there that combines hentai with education? That sounds... difficult to imagine, really (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Third, to some degree, yes, I think we like quality and want to uphold it. To some degree, as in - don't expect all of our releases to be worked to the degree of this, but we certainly want to keep up to certain level of standards, which we can discuss here more.

What should I add to my credit page ?
"What about translating, proofreading or editing ? You can become part of EHCove too, new members are always welcome !" Or something like that ?

What should I add to my credit page ?
"What about translating, proofreading or editing ? You can become part of EHCove too, new members are always welcome !" Or something like that ?

Pretty much. For reference, much like how I do it with any additional info like advertisements.

I'm in agreement with wehasband as to trying to find a renewed sense of direction and purpose. I'd love for us to be able to say EHCOVE is the official translating arm of E-hentai.org. We can recruit translators by offering bounties and letting them know that EHCOVE subsidizes the cost of editing bounties for personal projects released under EHCOVE, and would make it easier to find proofreaders/editors/QCers. We can recruit editors by offering bounties or Translation-for-Editing credits so that their own dream projects can get translated.

Quality-wise, I think EHCOVE is where it needs to be, so no real problem there. I would really, REALLY love to get some in-house QCers. I've been doing all the Quality Checking for my projects (and others besides), and it takes time and effort that I can barely afford if I'm to get translations done. What would be great would be to have 3+ reasonably experienced editors with solid English who can offer real advice on improving editing.

UF

Pretty much. For reference, much like how I do it with any additional info like advertisements.

Aye. Plus a link to the e-hentai.org / mention of the forums.

So Shanko, have you given any thoughts to joining? You already do a credit page, and your releases are good quality, so it's not like there's anything else you'd have to do (well, add that link to the credit page...).

I'm in agreement with wehasband as to trying to find a renewed sense of direction and purpose.

That would require Tenbooro's approval. No harm in asking him, though.

Quality-wise, I think EHCOVE is where it needs to be, so no real problem there. I would really, REALLY love to get some in-house QCers. I've been doing all the Quality Checking for my projects (and others besides), and it takes time and effort that I can barely afford if I'm to get translations done. What would be great would be to have 3+ reasonably experienced editors with solid English who can offer real advice on improving editing.

Very good point. And I think the solution is similar to everything else: put out some bounties. If it sounds good, I'll put up new type of bounties, QC, and see what (who) bites. Should they be in translation, editing, other - or all three?

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Dec 1 2014, 02:35

Very good point. And I think the solution is similar to everything else: put out some bounties.

Is that really how other groups work? Members are paid through bounties? While I certainly like the idea of getting some sort of reward for putting out EHCOVE translations, I can't help feeling like doing everything as a bounty feels mercenary, not cohesive at all.

Here's my perspective as a translator. I have already reached A-rank. My involvement with Hentaiverse is mild generally. My only real use for hath and credits any more is to fund editing bounties for my translations (and in one case, a probably hopeless standard bounty). My ideal group would be one which could promise to find/pay for editors for all the projects I translate. In exchange, I would willingly translate works desired by the group cost-free, with the understanding that I must also have time to pursue my own personal projects (all of which would ALSO be published under EHCOVE).

That's the sort of set-up I see as cohesive. I feel like potentially it could be a powerful aid for recruitment. Editors/proofreaders/QCers who join EHCOVE have a chance to dictate what translations come out next, meaning that their own dream projects get done without paying for bounties. We might need to think about what is required to become a member, to prevent abuse of the system (e.g. joining solely to get one translation done for free, then immediately quitting). Still, I feel like the fundamental premise is sound.

UF

Is that really how other groups work? Members are paid through bounties? While I certainly like the idea of getting some sort of reward for putting out EHCOVE translations, I can't help feeling like doing everything as a bounty feels mercenary, not cohesive at all.

Here's my perspective as a translator. I have already reached A-rank. My involvement with Hentaiverse is mild generally. My only real use for hath and credits any more is to fund editing bounties for my translations (and in one case, a probably hopeless standard bounty). My ideal group would be one which could promise to find/pay for editors for all the projects I translate. In exchange, I would willingly translate works desired by the group cost-free, with the understanding that I must also have time to pursue my own personal projects (all of which would ALSO be published under EHCOVE).

That's the sort of set-up I see as cohesive. I feel like potentially it could be a powerful aid for recruitment. Editors/proofreaders/QCers who join EHCOVE have a chance to dictate what translations come out next, meaning that their own dream projects get done without paying for bounties. We might need to think about what is required to become a member, to prevent abuse of the system (e.g. joining solely to get one translation done for free, then immediately quitting). Still, I feel like the fundamental premise is sound.

UF

Weeell. Other groups don't use bounties, it's a relatively unknown feature of the e-h galleries. What I meant is that this is the tool we use, a lot.

I am not the biggest fan of the mercenary - or for-profit - aspect of the bounty system, but it is the only way some people can try to get translations out. This all started few years back, when I decided to channel my income from ~2,000 galleries (~ hundreds of hours of hunting for scans) from Hentaiverse to getting some translations done. Before you came along, ulti, EHCOVE had no long-term translator; at best we got four-five translations from someone who disappeared or reduced activity. Everything was paid through bounties (mostly sponsored by me). This changed a bit with lightshader and shinko offering some edit for translate deals (they can tell more about it), and was really shaken up by your version of the deal. The last few months when half or so of our release are more or less fully sponsored by your deal system is unprecedented in EHCOVE history. Now, as you know, I am totally on board of it - it is allowing us to release many more works, and helps sustain our bounty fund. But it is *changing things*, and i haven't fully figured out how (through I think it's changing them for the better). One thing that I think is happening is that we are becoming more like a regular group, which as far as I know indeed work on the translate-for-editing deals (through I wonder how if at all they compensate proofreaders, scanners, etc.). It seems fair to me that a scanner - or ripper, or whatever we call a RAW hunter - should have an equal say in translation projects, for example. And if we want proofreaders, we should offer them something, too (hmmm, something like - 4 proofread pages for one translated, or something)?

I think the bounty system is still a valuable tool that can be used to recruit newcomers, as well as those who care more about Hentaiverse/Hath perks then selecting a project. And it is also valuable for reducing the workload on you and others who will take part in the exchanges we talk above.

Anything that helps us build a bigger, better community of editors/translators/etc. here is good. Keep those ideas coming!

As I mentioned above, the first goal is very much part of what I see EHCOVE as being about. Through I don't know how can we do it better beyond what we do now, which is a) advertise the site through credit pages and (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) maintain active threads here for editors, translators, scanners, and offer help and advice to those who ask.

I am rather curious about your second goal idea. Is there any group out there that combines hentai with education? That sounds... difficult to imagine, really (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Third, to some degree, yes, I think we like quality and want to uphold it. To some degree, as in - don't expect all of our releases to be worked to the degree of this, but we certainly want to keep up to certain level of standards, which we can discuss here more.

The second example goal might elicit guffaws and rib-nudges, but there is some grain of truth in it.
Despite what mainstream media wants us to believe, pornography is not the lowest form of culture. Social networking is. Are the groups who work with non-erotic media better than us because their material is catered to all ages? Are educational materials only for individuals currently receiving formal education? Does learning stop once you get out of school? No, I believe that every one of us picks up a lesson everytime we do a project, whether its about picking the right brush for that editing job, learning the workings of an unfamiliar word in another language or dealing with criticism on the net.
Make no mistake, I agree that erotic literature is best-suited for people of the right age. I don't want any of it near schools, I don't want any of it given to children. That is an infamita. But forgive me, I digress.

What UF was saying about having a new sense of purpose and direction doesn't really have to involve big changes in the organization. Its just that its easier to get people to participate if we all shared the same idea, believe in a common goal. Cohesion will play an important role in the long run, even in a group capitalizing on self-interest.

Speaking of participation, it would be interesting to hear what EHCs other members have to say about the topic. Their opinions hold more weight than the observations of an outsider, after all.

Just thinking, since all I do is scans aside from the one TL I got done through rookie84, would it be a decent idea to release some of my scans under the EHC banner?

I don't put much effort into my scans aside from debinding, cleaning glue, and a leveling script, but maybe do nice scans that are straightened, cropped, leveled, and cleaned up.

hmm i think its fine but it would be good if
we get EHcove in Restricted Forums
like gold and catgirl where only editors translators etc have acces to
where we can share translations edits

The second example goal might elicit guffaws and rib-nudges, but there is some grain of truth in it.

No guffaws so far. I certainly agree that to live is to learn, but I think the main education is for the EHCOVE members - learning how to edit/translate/collaborate. Our readers, well, you just can't learn much from most dojins other than simple reading skill plus few tidbits about Japanese culture. Granted, there are a few story/plotline masterpieces out there, but we don't really focus on them because, well, they tend to be text-heavy, and thus difficult to find a TL willing to work on them.

Just thinking, since all I do is scans aside from the one TL I got done through rookie84, would it be a decent idea to release some of my scans under the EHC banner?

I don't put much effort into my scans aside from debinding, cleaning glue, and a leveling script, but maybe do nice scans that are straightened, cropped, leveled, and cleaned up.

I am afraid it is the renaming rule not to attach a scanner name to the upload. Stupid, if you ask me, but I was outvoted on this long time ago. Now, there's nothing preventing an image credit in the gallery itself, through I haven't attached any credits to the few scans I did.

That said, I don't see why we wouldn't want to support people who would like to release scans with some form of EHCOVE SCANS credit page, linking back to the forums, etc. The main difficulty I see is figuring what, if any, translate-for-scans deals we could work out.

hmm i think its fine but it would be good if
we get EHcove in Restricted Forums
like gold and catgirl where only editors translators etc have acces to
where we can share translations edits

I asked Ten and he doesn't think activity in the Cove, EHCOVE or otherwise, merits a new subforum, so that's that.

As long as you are passing by, Dragon, what's the update on RtV4, which you've been editing for close to 2 months now?

Well, I would like to know about collabs/commissioned project : for example, being an editor, I sometimes commission Brolen to have new translations without waiting someone willing to accept my bounties. In this case, should I credit this as a personnal release (adding only [Brolen] in the title and using my personnal credit page), an EHCove release or a [Brolen + EHCove] release (and then use my EHCove credit page) ?
The same apply to re-editions and Translation-For-Editing deals.

More generally: can a project partially done by an EHCove member but without using bounties be considered an EHCove release ? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

I wouldn't consider commissioned translation part of EHCove.