[X] My Assistant

What just keeps bothering me is that, like others have already stated, this whole situation gives the impression that not the whole portion of the target group (the portion which is willing to pay) is being reached by the current distributional methods and that there also seem to be no efforts to change this.

Yeah, that's annoying indeed.

But okay, without almost any insider knowledge at all, which we'll as you mentioned probably never see, it's really impossible to come to a useful conclusion.

Insider knowledge, you mean the authors, or just the Japanese people? I still find it strange that despite relative popularity of this site in Japan, we have next to no active Japanese members on the forum. Our mix here seems pretty international - heck, we even get the occasional Chinese speaker. But no Japanese. Without them, it's hard to know what is written on the Japanese sites, and what do Japanese do.

It would be of course great to be able to talk to some authors, but for now, I'd be happy if we could talk to some Japanese fans and here their side of the story.

Ah, I see. I know this is how it works in most of the business (author looses much copyright)

Technically, author never loses copyright, ie. author remains copyright owner, and copyright term always counts from his death. However, author can license rights to publishers. And these licences can be exclusive, ie. the publisher can licence certain rights for their exclusive use. Then, the author can't exercise that right anymore (only publisher can), but author still remains copyright owner.
I think in this case it's publisher (licencee) who is really able to claim their rights are infringed upon, not the copyright owner, even though Help page on E-Hentai reads otherwise. Or maybe it's a matter of terminology - people calling publishers copyright owners even though they only licence rights. Or maybe it's the matter the fact that many works are done as work-for-hire - then the publisher who hired the author really owns the copyright, and the copyright term is different - 95 years, still from death of the author.

Technically, author never loses copyright, ie. author remains copyright owner, and copyright term always counts from his death. However, author can license rights to publishers. And these licences can be exclusive, ie. the publisher can licence certain rights for their exclusive use. Then, the author can't exercise that right anymore (only publisher can), but author still remains copyright owner.
I think in this case it's publisher (licencee) who is really able to claim their rights are infringed upon, not the copyright owner

That's exactly, what I was too stupid to phrase. Essence is the same though (besides me mixing up publishing rights and copyright).
Btw. after Red_Piotrus asked, I got unsure myself, if it's not really the case that publishing rights could technically be split into certain sectors. Though it doesn't make a big difference, even if it's the case (since getting publishing rights for all vital sectors sure is a standard clause then, with the publisher otherwise not signing a deal).

Insider knowledge, you mean the authors, or just the Japanese people?

The authors since they're the only ones who really have an deeper insight on the business side of this. But as you said it would also be interesting hearing opinions of japanese members in general since they frequent certain japanese boards where they might also get info we don't have.

This post has been edited by hyarugu: Jan 7 2012, 18:47

or find some toranoana melonbooks workers they can give some insight for overall sales

or find some toranoana melonbooks workers they can give some insight for overall sales

What are they, how to find them and what insight do they give? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What are they, how to find them and what insight do they give? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

lol

about sales noumbers of course (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey Red, since you were in contact with some of Chinese translators, any chance you might've been in contact with some Korean translators as well?

One of the Korean translation groups, Project H, translated a particular doujin that I'm interested in getting translated into English (but unfortunately no raw was ever released) so if possible I'd like to try and get the original scans from them and use that for Japanese to English translation.

Hey Red, since you were in contact with some of Chinese translators, any chance you might've been in contact with some Korean translators as well?

One of the Korean translation groups, Project H, translated a particular doujin that I'm interested in getting translated into English (but unfortunately no raw was ever released) so if possible I'd like to try and get the original scans from them and use that for Japanese to English translation.

Nope, no contact. But I encourage you to do the same thing I do when I see a translations without the RAWs: post a request in the comments and contact the uploader. Sometimes, it works (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nope, no contact. But I encourage you to do the same thing I do when I see a translations without the RAWs: post a request in the comments and contact the uploader. Sometimes, it works (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The doujin in question happens to be a C80 doujin, so it's fairly old so posting a comment in it likely won't be noticed. So I PM'd the poster, so I'll have to wait and see if he responds, as it doesn't seem that he checks out the forms (zero posts).

I have a few questions for you guys. (These are not my opinions, I am simply trying to understand this mindset.)

As you seem to be so worried about hurting the artists or publishers, have you ever considered the harm in uploading translated works in the first place? It seems to me if you were so concered about it you would upload nothing at all.

Also, what if someone were to take the work of a translator (For example, a doujin that has been translated to Chinese), and translate it back to Japanese. Does this new re-translated version bare the same supposed evil as the original copy?

If they don't want to upload the raw thats fine, but it just seems like this moral high horse is a little bit too convenient when its mostly about crushing competition.

I'm not suggesting people upload nothing at all, but nitpicking about being morally superior at the same time as you are uploading the exclusive version of said manga/doujin seems pretty fishy if you ask me.

Maybe there is a moral difference between raws and translations, but you're still not doing a great service to these artists/publishers so just cut the crap.

As for the Japanese opinion on this, its pretty much as you would expect. Buisness is buisness and companies will always try to get you on a guilt trip even when they get increased sales from the publicity.

As you seem to be so worried about hurting the artists or publishers, have you ever considered the harm in uploading translated works in the first place? It seems to me if you were so concered about it you would upload nothing at all.

Not at all. The damage(?) is done as soon as it's been uploaded the first time. I'm mearly taking advantage of a (bad?) situation.

Also, what if someone were to take the work of a translator (For example, a doujin that has been translated to Chinese), and translate it back to Japanese. Does this new re-translated version bare the same supposed evil as the original copy?

First, that's kinda weird, and i've literally never heard of such a thing.

Maybe there is a moral difference between raws and translations, but you're still not doing a great service to these artists/publishers so just cut the crap.

Unfortunately, like music, games, movies etc. these artists are just another casualty in the Media Uploading Wars and it's just something that can't be helped. It's no different from ripping their stuff or the Shonen Jump guys, and the simple fact that they continually release stuff (at least from ones I pay attention to) is some small hint they're not sleeping under a bridge working by firefly.

Secondly, what goes on between me and a translator is my business.

This post has been edited by Super Shanko: Feb 25 2012, 00:35

sites like DLsite should add some form of copy protection... its too easy to copy and upload their stuff (altough its better for us)

Not at all. The damage(?) is done as soon as it's been uploaded the first time. I'm mearly taking advantage of a (bad?) situation.

I agree with you. In any case we can only theorise the supposed damage if any that is recieved and if they even are big enough to counter the theoretical benefits from artists getting huge publicity (for example there are now hundreds of artists I would consider buying from that I would have never known were if not for people uploading some of their work here. And I'm sure I'm only one of many examples.).

One way we could check if they recieved any damage is by looking at their profits and as was mentioned in an ealier post in this topic their profits have actually gone UP in recent years. So you could make a pretty good argument that there might in fact actually be no REAL damage being done. Only theoretical or moral damage.

First, that's kinda weird, and i've literally never heard of such a thing.

This question was aimed more at people who think raws are evil and translations are fine. The thing is that I simply enjoy reading mangas/doujins in Japanese and I simply think my preference of Japanese does not make it any more or less evil. Only cooks think that way.

Unfortunately, like music, games, movies etc. these artists are just another casualty in the Media Uploading Wars and it's just something that can't be helped. It's no different from ripping their stuff or the Shonen Jump guys, and the simple fact that they continually release stuff (at least from ones I pay attention to) is some small hint they're not sleeping under a bridge working by firefly.

I just read what I wrote again and and it looks like I was saying to stop uploading raws/translations but thats not what I meant. I was trying to say for people to stop the moral holier than thou stuff because we are all morally in the same boat. sorry if there was any misunderstandings. ^^;

And yes, I actually agree with you. lol

Secondly, what goes on between me and a translator is my business.

I'm not sure what this refers to but I guess I agree? I don't know why anyone would think that is not your buisness, lol.

sites like DLsite should add some form of copy protection... its too easy to copy and upload their stuff (altough its better for us)

That is entirely up to their decision. They have no moral or legal obligation to lower the functionality of their product because capitalists are scared of piracy. If they are satisfied with their current anti piracy methods and make a good profit there is no reason why they technically "should" add copy protection. Maybe being known as a source of "copy protection free" content could actually help their buisness. Buisness is not only about screwing over your customers every chance you get. If a company delivers a good quality product that has alot of utilities and makes a profit at the same time, theres nothing wrong with that at all.

In fact many studies have been made that shows that copy protection can actually give you LOWER profits than normal. (example:http://www.labspaces.net/114102/Removal_of_restrictions_can_decrease_music_piracy)

So your suggestion would actually harm DLsite and us at the same time!

You've got to be careful about this anti-piracy stuff. Its easy to go overboard and shoot yourself in the foot.

Aside from that, they do kinda mess with the customers by censoring the shit out of the stuff uploaded. Unless it's non-h then it's a great day.

And when you said:

Maybe there is a moral difference between raws and translations, but you're still not doing a great service to these artists/publishers so just cut the crap.

Sounded like something negative regarding translating their stuff.

I agree with you. In any case we can only theorise the supposed damage if any that is recieved and if they even are big enough to counter the theoretical benefits from artists getting huge publicity (for example there are now hundreds of artists I would consider buying from that I would have never known were if not for people uploading some of their work here. And I'm sure I'm only one of many examples.).

One way we could check if they recieved any damage is by looking at their profits and as was mentioned in an ealier post in this topic their profits have actually gone UP in recent years. So you could make a pretty good argument that there might in fact actually be no REAL damage being done. Only theoretical or moral damage.

This question was aimed more at people who think raws are evil and translations are fine. The thing is that I simply enjoy reading mangas/doujins in Japanese and I simply think my preference of Japanese does not make it any more or less evil. Only cooks think that way.

I just read what I wrote again and and it looks like I was saying to stop uploading raws/translations but thats not what I meant. I was trying to say for people to stop the moral holier than thou stuff because we are all morally in the same boat. sorry if there was any misunderstandings. ^^;

And yes, I actually agree with you. lol

I'm not sure what this refers to but I guess I agree? I don't know why anyone would think that is not your buisness, lol.
That is entirely up to their decision. They have no moral or legal obligation to lower the functionality of their product because capitalists are scared of piracy. If they are satisfied with their current anti piracy methods and make a good profit there is no reason why they technically "should" add copy protection. Maybe being known as a source of "copy protection free" content could actually help their buisness. Buisness is not only about screwing over your customers every chance you get. If a company delivers a good quality product that has alot of utilities and makes a profit at the same time, theres nothing wrong with that at all.

In fact many studies have been made that shows that copy protection can actually give you LOWER profits than normal. (example:http://www.labspaces.net/114102/Removal_of_restrictions_can_decrease_music_piracy)

So your suggestion would actually harm DLsite and us at the same time!

You've got to be careful about this anti-piracy stuff. Its easy to go overboard and shoot yourself in the foot.

I just realised that DLSite DO provide content protection (as an option). They make you use their own software to view the files.

This post has been edited by N04h: Feb 25 2012, 08:14

Sounded like something negative regarding translating their stuff.

Yeah, it sounded really wrong when I read it back too, lol. It sounded so much clearer in my head! hahaha

Personally I'm all for translations man. it attracts new audiences to artists and just increases the overall appreciation for art. Art is one of the great pleasures of life man, take part in it and share it around as much as you like. =)

I guess my posts might have had an anti-translation vibe to them, but I was not trying to criticise translators, I was simply trying to offer questions so that we may better understand the mentality of people who refuse to upload raws along with their translation.

Not that there is anything wrong with not uploading the raws. You have the right to do what you want with them, but when someone starts to say that uploading raws is evil but translations are fine, thats a different story. They are not only withholding raws, they are claiming to be morally superior to you and me which is totally baseless and there is no need of it.

You can't prove that uploading a raw does more damage than uploading a translation. People can have opinions about raws being bad and come up with all sorts of theories and stories about it, but the morality in this case is based on the outcome. And knowing the outcome can only be based on facts. Translators can repeat their opinions untill they are blue in the face. It still won't produce a single shred of evidence to prove their point.

That's why I call bullshit on their moral claim. Its fine if they keep the raw, but when they make a moral claim like this its a direct insult to people like you and me, and it is also an insult to our intelligence to expect that we would believe such a lie.

So guys, just stop lying about being moral and keep translating.

I just realised that DLSite DO provide content protection (as an option). They make you use their own software to view the files.

Well I'll be damned. lol

Good investigative work N04h!

This post has been edited by Boniface: Feb 25 2012, 08:39

yeah I was thinking about buying something, when there was a note about it.

yes dl have some protection but not for all stuff some artists-circles stuff,its very few

So guys, just stop lying about being moral and keep translating.

Sure, statements like that are exactly what you need when you're trying to convince them that you're right. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

If they bought the book and scanned it themselves to make their raws, they can do (or not do) whether the hell they want to do with their raw scans. No one is obligated to upload them and no one is entitled to see them. If you want them so damn badly, buy your own copy and make your own scans and upload them (or not) yourself. They spent the money to get them, you didn't.