[X] My Assistant

I agree that we cannot claim any certainties here, but based on the links I've posted above, I am seeing evidence that sharing books / comics boosts sales. You say that you are not convinced. Could you provide any evidence to the contrary?

I wouldn't say that I'm not convinced based on that, just that that's not how I personally feel, as I continue to steal video games, movies, and music on a weekly basis. I'm mostly just not convinced (not satisfied?) by the current state of the market, and constantly frustrated by Japan and their xenophobic views. The market for manga could be so much more than it is right now if they would just take the time to embrace the opportunity.

A final question. Out of those of us who own printed dojins, how many of us learned about the existence of dojins in general (and their favorite manganaka's in particular) through the stuff available free on the Internet?

This is probably your most convincing argument yet. I know that I, personally, learned about this stuff way back on AOL connecting to weird hentai newsgroups where they'd share some 30 odd scans of doujins that everyone had seen before as well as other random pictures. Then that eventually expanded into a website boom where places would host random doujins that they found including the original e-hentai site, and although I can't say that I wouldn't know about this kind of thing if people didn't spread it like they did, I can say that I wouldn't be here constantly reading new and impressive works as well as translating some for others to read and understand. In that light, I doubt that the general market would be as strong as it is now, and would still be like it was back in the 80s when it was for the real die-hard fans to share their works with each other as opposed to ComiKet now which could almost be called a mash-up of rabid Touhou fans and Mangaka advertising their main work with doujinshi containing pictures they like to draw.

Alright.... My meager two cents.

Just like Kage, I too only found out about H-manga/doujins because the internet since, discovered some very liked artists I still like today, the original e-hentai site which (out of nostalgia) made me look up E-H again only to see it go from a one-horse town to a thriving metropolis which in turn made me discover the SF doujin that ended up making me an editor.

At what Dlaglacz said: Yes, it is very much possible to find even some of the most hard to find books. In my case, I was able to get some help of an H-manga dealer on Ebay straight from Japan, but the book (originally about 785Y) would be sold to me for 3415Y, and that doesn't include the shipping, but it did include a lovely finder's fee for the (presumably) greasy looking dealer, which is alot for a book I personall wouldn't even be able to scan. Naturally, it wouldn't matter if I had a disposable income for doujins, but my personal pocket money comes from editing.

This post has been edited by Super Shanko: Mar 8 2012, 22:59

Another quick point I wanted to raise is the effect of an artist's attitude and how that reflects in the eye of the audience (in this specific case a certain artist whose moniker is an english name and the audience being me). I used to think that this artist was pretty decent, and that I might want to follow them and even purchase a tank at some point if they released one with content that I liked, but after having only some 5 or so doujinshi released, they went absolutely apeshit and demanded that all of her content be taken down. This left a rather nasty aftertaste in my mouth and I have avoided that artist ever since and feel all the better for it.

It's very easy. When you can't buy it.

Why pick a seemingly simple English statement to pieces to further your argument? You know exactly what I mean.

Just pointing out that it's not so easy to determine when the author no longer gets money from something, as your previous statement implied.

Just wanted to share a little snippet of data on the dojin sales at comiket, based on [www.comiket.co.jp] their official release: sales of dojins increased from C75 to C76 (from 9.2m to 9.4m). That was in 2009, so an era of already significant sharing of RAWs online, including on our site.

Just another argument that sharing dojins online is not hurting the artists (but is helping boost sales instead).

Just wanted to share a little snippet of data on the dojin sales at comiket, based on [www.comiket.co.jp] their official release: sales of dojins increased from C75 to C76 (from 9.2m to 9.4m). That was in 2009, so an era of already significant sharing of RAWs online, including on our site.

Just another argument that sharing dojins online is not hurting the artists (but is helping boost sales instead).

Except that's a decrease in percentage of books printed that were sold (80% to 78%) and number of books sold per attendee (18 to 17). Not to mention that it only measures sales at the actual event (and in "simplified and unverified statistics" at that), before significant piracy of that convention's releases could have occurred.

In any case, there are too many confounding factors and too few data points to use that for any conclusive judgments in either direction. Any attempts to justify would just be guessing in the manner that best benefits the preferred side's case.

You're latching on to two numbers in a 21-page document.

This post has been edited by Hitsuyou-H: Mar 9 2012, 00:39

Except that's a decrease in percentage of books printed that were sold (80% to 78%) and number of books sold per attendee (18 to 17). Not to mention that it only measures sales at the actual event (and in "simplified and unverified statistics" at that), before significant piracy of that convention's releases could have occurred.

In any case, there are too many confounding factors and too few data points to use that for any conclusive judgments in either direction. Any attempts to justify would just be guessing in the manner that best benefits the preferred side's case.

You're latching on to two numbers in a 21-page document.

Well, yes. Those are poor stats, but I don't see anybody else presenting a single shred of data here anyway (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If anybody has better numbers, do share.

Otherwise, the numbers I was able to find suggest that the dojin (net) sales are not shrinking, but rather, increasing, so any claims that sharing RAWs is hurting the artists is unjustified at best. Even if you were to put all my numbers aside, those claimed that sharing raws hurts authors have not presented anything to support their claim.

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Mar 9 2012, 00:55

Just pointing out that it's not so easy to determine when the author no longer gets money from something, as your previous statement implied.

Except that I get to use this wonderful thing called my discerning judgement. I'm not sitting at home with slide rules and charts determining when the course of the economy has dictated that there's a 99% probability that there are no longer any books freely for sale. When I feel it's time, it's time.

At the end of the day, it's not even about the author. It's about what I need to do to continue feeling good about myself. Scanning is a conflict in that sense. Part of me wants to help my friends who don't have access to doujinshi. Part of me wants to encourage the artists who produce the books I love. I try and straddle the line in such a way that I feel that I've done right by as many people as possible.

Others may disagree. Frankly, they can get stuffed. Arguments and reasoning are unlikely to change necessity for me to behave in a way that I believe to be fair.



And to address the other topic, are people really trying to say that they're doing the artists a favour by uploading? Sales are neither here nor there on this point. The fact is that you're going against what is in most cases the explicit wishes of the artist. Many books state in no uncertain terms that the artist wishes it not to be uploaded. Is that not their choice? I don't think you get to say that you're helping someone against their will. That's right up there with consensual rape.

Personally, I'm OK with going against the authors wishes. But I'm not claiming that I'm doing them a favour by boosting their sales on the back of dubious data.

Others may disagree. Frankly, they can get stuffed.

Thanks for the reminding us about the most important rule of the online fora discussions (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

FYI: The word is mangaka, not manganaka....

This post has been edited by Beryl: Mar 9 2012, 10:02

At the end of the day, it's not even about the author. It's about what I need to do to continue feeling good about myself. Scanning is a conflict in that sense. Part of me wants to help my friends who don't have access to doujinshi. Part of me wants to encourage the artists who produce the books I love. I try and straddle the line in such a way that I feel that I've done right by as many people as possible.

Others may disagree. Frankly, they can get stuffed. Arguments and reasoning are unlikely to change necessity for me to behave in a way that I believe to be fair.

I completely agree. I'm doing the same thing (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And to address the other topic, are people really trying to say that they're doing the artists a favour by uploading?

Yes. If not for that, probably almost all people on this forum would have never known about these artists. I bought hentai mangas in the past. I wouldn't, if I never heard of them.

Sales are neither here nor there on this point. The fact is that you're going against what is in most cases the explicit wishes of the artist. Many books state in no uncertain terms that the artist wishes it not to be uploaded. Is that not their choice? I don't think you get to say that you're helping someone against their will. That's right up there with consensual rape.

They have more than one wish though, and the wishes contradict. They wish not to have scans released. And they wish to make more money. I'm picking the one that will get them more money against the other one. Whatever you do, it'll be against one of their wishes anyway.

Personally, I'm OK with going against the authors wishes. But I'm not claiming that I'm doing them a favour by boosting their sales on the back of dubious data.

In absence of precise measurements, it boils down to what one is inclined to believe is true. You don't believe the end result of their scans getting online is boosting their sales, I do.

And they wish to make more money.

That's reaching, considering that a large amount of the circles that participate in Comikets don't actually turn a profit. They're well aware that the likelihood of becoming "big time" and making fat stacks of loot from drawing porn is slim. I'd suggest that most of the minor groups take part because being part of Comiket is the dream of most aspiring comic book artists in Japan.

However, they still object to their works being uploaded. If they thought it was beneficial, they'd upload their stuff themselves.


Of course, they probably wish to make money in the sense that all people wish to make money, but I'd suggest that doujinshi authors are smart enough to put the making money to one side for what they believe to be the good of their art.

Yes. If not for that, probably almost all people on this forum would have never known about these artists. I bought hentai mangas in the past. I wouldn't, if I never heard of them.

Nope. The artists are free to choose how their material is marketed. If they ask you to help with marketing, then go for it. Until then, you're still trying to justify going against the artist's wishes as something positive for them.

It's not positive for them. It's positive for you.

You don't believe the end result of their scans getting online is boosting their sales, I do.

You believe you're helping them. You don't KNOW, and if you ask the artists they will likely say that you are NOT helping them. Who should we listen to? You? Or the artists? The one who advocates theft of another's intellectual property in order to help them, or the one who worked hard to create the content in the first place?

And again, it doesn't even matter if you boosted their sales 1000%. It's against the author's wishes. You don't get to say "Well, it's a good job I broke into my ex-girlfriend's house and burned it down while she was out for the weekend. Otherwise she would still have been living there when that helicopter crashed into it 6 months later!"

That's reaching, considering that a large amount of the circles that participate in Comikets don't actually turn a profit. They're well aware that the likelihood of becoming "big time" and making fat stacks of loot from drawing porn is slim. I'd suggest that most of the minor groups take part because being part of Comiket is the dream of most aspiring comic book artists in Japan.

However, they still object to their works being uploaded. If they thought it was beneficial, they'd upload their stuff themselves.
Of course, they probably wish to make money in the sense that all people wish to make money, but I'd suggest that doujinshi authors are smart enough to put the making money to one side for what they believe to be the good of their art.
Nope. The artists are free to choose how their material is marketed. If they ask you to help with marketing, then go for it. Until then, you're still trying to justify going against the artist's wishes as something positive for them.

It's not positive for them. It's positive for you.
You believe you're helping them. You don't KNOW, and if you ask the artists they will likely say that you are NOT helping them. Who should we listen to? You? Or the artists? The one who advocates theft of another's intellectual property in order to help them, or the one who worked hard to create the content in the first place?

And again, it doesn't even matter if you boosted their sales 1000%. It's against the author's wishes. You don't get to say "Well, it's a good job I broke into my ex-girlfriend's house and burned it down while she was out for the weekend. Otherwise she would still have been living there when that helicopter crashed into it 6 months later!"

If you are dropping the argument that the dojin artists want to make money, thus dropping the entire stealing / taking food away from their mouths argument, and turn it into the "their feeling will be hurt" / copyright violation of intellectual property argument, Dlag has already addressed this here.

Further, dojin artists are, original creation aside, already "violating" the "wishes" and rights of the creators/copyright owners of the stuff they are parodying. So it's not like they have any moral high ground in such an argument. It's ok to take somebody's idea, without permission, subject it to tentacle rape, and sell it, but it's not ok for others to take an idea modified in such a way and share it? Somehow I fail to see any significant distinction, and the artists feeble objections ("It's ok for us to steal, modify and sell somebody's idea but it's not ok for you to do it to us") are not very convincing.

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Mar 10 2012, 03:20

original creation aside

Uh, you're setting aside something that's pretty damn important.

---

EDIT: Derp, I misinterpreted that sentence. I would revise and elaborate on my post accordingly, but Imari pretty much covered (in the larger paragraph of his post below) what I had in mind when I responded as I did.

This post has been edited by Hitsuyou-H: Mar 10 2012, 08:10

Further, dojin artists are, original creation aside, already "violating" the "wishes" and rights of the creators/copyright owners of the stuff they are parodying.

You're ignoring half the stuff that's original? Ok, whatever. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

With regards to the half that's based on established franchises? There are legal precedents for corporations pursuing doujinshi artists (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/07/08/lifestyle/lifestyle_30039868.php). The corporations cannot openly endorse doujinshi as that would open all sorts of avenues for exploitation of their intellectual property. But the fact that they choose on the whole not to pursue doujin authors, Comiket, or Toranoana/Melonbooks/Mandarake is telling. Even if they're not happy about it they tolerate the existence of doujinshi. The number of mangaka that began as doujinshi artists is not low.


But even were your supposition to be correct and the creators of Evangelion, etc. fervertly against doujinshi, it doesn't really matter. Does being molested as a child entitle you to molest your own children? I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

However, they still object to their works being uploaded. If they thought it was beneficial, they'd upload their stuff themselves.

The works they created. Not their works. I wish them well, and I want them to produce more works to enrich our common culture, but after they're done creating them, the works are as much mine as theirs.

Nope. The artists are free to choose how their material is marketed. If they ask you to help with marketing, then go for it. Until then, you're still trying to justify going against the artist's wishes as something positive for them.

Nope. Once their work leaves their brain, it's not theirs anymore. They don't own parts of my brain that are used to store copies of it and impressions it made on me. They're free to choose how they market their material, just as I am free to choose how I market it.

It's not positive for them. It's positive for you.

It's positive both for them and me, in my opinion.

You believe you're helping them. You don't KNOW, and if you ask the artists they will likely say that you are NOT helping them. Who should we listen to? You? Or the artists? The one who advocates theft of another's intellectual property in order to help them, or the one who worked hard to create the content in the first place?

Just as you and some of them believe I am not. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

The 'theft of intellectual property' line is bullshit. It's not a property, and it can't be stolen. It's a temporary monopoly, and it can be infringed upon, but that's it.

See here for a video explaining it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCOXLscE-jA

And again, it doesn't even matter if you boosted their sales 1000%. It's against the author's wishes. You don't get to say "Well, it's a good job I broke into my ex-girlfriend's house and burned it down while she was out for the weekend. Otherwise she would still have been living there when that helicopter crashed into it 6 months later!"

The analogy is flawed. An ex-girlfriend's house is her property. The connection between the artist an the work created by the artist, which belongs to everyone, but society grants the artist a bit of time to make a profit on it to support creativity is entirely different matter.

The Internet made it harder to make a profit, because it made copying easier, but turning on the Internet to prop up legacy business models and trying to falsify the real status of works is just dumb. Lots of people nowadays learn how to effectively coexist with copyright infringement, entire new business models spring up that enable creators to get support from their fans more efficiently and more directly than ever before. I expect that eventually the works will be available by official channels more conveniently than the piracy can deliver them, and the problem of piracy, and related attacks on fair use and sharing will subside.

About 'originality' of the work:

Uh, you're setting aside something that's pretty damn important.

You're ignoring half the stuff that's original? Ok, whatever. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Nothing is original. Everything is a remix of things done previously, ideas, words, memes invented long ago, that are parts of common culture. There are documentaries describing this very well - for example this one: [www.everythingisaremix.info] http://www.everythingisaremix.info/
Or perhaps this, it takes a bit less time: [blog.ninapaley.com] http://blog.ninapaley.com/2009/12/28/the-c...of-originality/

With regards to the half that's based on established franchises? There are legal precedents for corporations pursuing doujinshi artists (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/07/08/lifestyle/lifestyle_30039868.php). The corporations cannot openly endorse doujinshi as that would open all sorts of avenues for exploitation of their intellectual property. But the fact that they choose on the whole not to pursue doujin authors, Comiket, or Toranoana/Melonbooks/Mandarake is telling. Even if they're not happy about it they tolerate the existence of doujinshi. The number of mangaka that began as doujinshi artists is not low.
But even were your supposition to be correct and the creators of Evangelion, etc. fervertly against doujinshi, it doesn't really matter. Does being molested as a child entitle you to molest your own children? I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Or perhaps it would be simpler to abandon the whole concept of rights and properties, fire thousands of lawyers who siphon the money out of creative industries, and just make it easy for people to donate to and support the author whose works they will always be able to experience for free anyway?

About 'originality' of the work:
Nothing is original. Everything is a remix of things done previously, ideas, words, memes invented long ago, that are parts of common culture. There are documentaries describing this very well - for example this one: [www.everythingisaremix.info] http://www.everythingisaremix.info/
Or perhaps this, it takes a bit less time: [blog.ninapaley.com] http://blog.ninapaley.com/2009/12/28/the-c...of-originality/

Entirely apart from the fact that you know what we mean by original works and are again choosing to banter about the meanings of words instead of the actual point...

This is complete grade A bullshit. It is true that most things are old ideas remixed. But the statement that EVERYTHING is a remix is logically false. At some point in history there must have been a first person to come up with any given concept. And unless you think that the human race has already conceived of every possible idea that can ever be thought of in the universe, then some new ideas will emerge in the future.



I know where you're going with the intellectual property can't be owned thing and I sort of agree, but it's just not how our world works. And it's not really likely to work that way anytime soon unless there's a massive and catastrophic overthrow of society. In the world we live in, the artists own their works and we are criminals for copying it. End of story.

Frankly, artists will need legacy business models in order to justify the time they spend producing until we reach such a point that decent food/shelter/etc are things that are simply given to every citizen. As long as we're in a money society, the artists have to play along with that and make money too, or starve.

It's not an ideal world, but it's what we have. You can make live difficult for people like the artists who write doujinshi. Or you can play along and try and change the world in ways that don't infringe on the rights of others.

This is complete grade A bullshit. It is true that most things are old ideas remixed. But the statement that EVERYTHING is a remix is logically false. At some point in history there must have been a first person to come up with any given concept. And unless you think that the human race has already conceived of every possible idea that can ever be thought of in the universe, then some new ideas will emerge in the future.

I think all possible combinations of all ideas that can matter to average person has been exhausted long before the stone age, yes. It's kinda hard to trace them to their original authors now.

I know where you're going with the intellectual property can't be owned thing and I sort of agree, but it's just not how our world works. And it's not really likely to work that way anytime soon unless there's a massive and catastrophic overthrow of society. In the world we live in, the artists own their works and we are criminals for copying it. End of story.

And so you're gonna support it and talk yourself into that frame of mind? That's usually called [en.wikipedia.org] Stockholm syndrome, you know...

Frankly, artists will need legacy business models in order to justify the time they spend producing until we reach such a point that decent food/shelter/etc are things that are simply given to every citizen. As long as we're in a money society, the artists have to play along with that and make money too, or starve.

You talk as if artists were some caste, entirely separate from ordinary people. Everyone can create. You are creator, I am creator, average poster on E-Hentai is a creator. Why assume creators can only create or starve, and can't hold any job a normal person could?

It's not an ideal world, but it's what we have. You can make live difficult for people like the artists who write doujinshi. Or you can play along and try and change the world in ways that don't infringe on the rights of others.

Well, I try to change the world in ways that will make it better for everyone, not just bankers backing the companies that siphon value out of relationships between the consumer/creators, and lawyers that get paid by these companies.

I think all possible combinations of all ideas that can matter to average person has been exhausted long before the stone age, yes. It's kinda hard to trace them to their original authors now.

Lol. Before the stone age? Clearly your definition of ideas that matter to an average person is rather narrow.

And so you're gonna support it and talk yourself into that frame of mind? That's usually called [en.wikipedia.org] Stockholm syndrome, you know...

Did I say that? I said I understand it and think it's a decent idea that's entirely untenable in the world we live in. There's a difference between appreciating a concept and thinking it's actually a good idea to implement. I can appreciate how SUVs could be a popular vehicle, but in a world where most people don't go anywhere near off-road they're terrible.

You talk as if artists were some caste, entirely separate from ordinary people. Everyone can create. You are creator, I am creator, average poster on E-Hentai is a creator. Why assume creators can only create or starve, and can't hold any job a normal person could?

As a profession, it is different. An artist is different to someone working data entry, or on a phone support line. I'm not saying that everyone can't create, but there are many jobs in which you don't have to create something regularly.

Well, I try to change the world in ways that will make it better for everyone, not just bankers backing the companies that siphon value out of relationships between the consumer/creators, and lawyers that get paid by these companies.

There are certain parts of our society that are without argument pretty messed up. Banks and lawyers are pretty much at the top of that list. But these are people who are not producing or contributing anything, they're simply taking advantage of the hard work of others. I see I big difference between these types and doujinshi artists.

By definition, doujinshi are supposed to be relatively non-commercial. I'm not sure how strongly that holds when they're selling copies through Tora/Melon/Mandarake, but at Comiket at least there's limits to the print runs and prices so that they're not making massive profits over production costs. And there are no corporations behind them, unless you count the printing companies. They're all small groups of people (or even just one person) who wanted to make a book.

So I ask again, how does screwing over doujinshi artists further your goal of making a better world?

Lol. Before the stone age? Clearly your definition of ideas that matter to an average person is rather narrow.

Cleary you think life in the stone age was less complicated than today and lacking today's choices. It doesn't seem so to me, and they had all the tropes we could put into any new creation today, the problems they had were just different.

As a profession, it is different. An artist is different to someone working data entry, or on a phone support line. I'm not saying that everyone can't create, but there are many jobs in which you don't have to create something regularly.

You never have to create somewhat regularly, or at all. Creating is a matter of personal choice. Someone who is stating that from now on he takes up a profession of an author doesn't automatically become entitled to some benefits others don't enjoy. Creators who attain professional status do that not by declaration but because they start by creating a lot (practically always because they happen to like it and would create for the sake of creation), and showing it around for free, gaining readers, viewers, fan following. When that following is big enough, people ready to support the author with donations or "buying" the books, movies, whatever is created without a second thought, it's possible for the creator to monetize his status. With money he can devote more time to creating and less to keeping himself financially fluent along with everyone else. Which is the point of giving donations - and part of the reason for "buying" a book by favourite author is also that even if this one is a bit worse than previous ones, this will let the author write another one.
This model was hard recognized as such in the past, because it was not easy for the creator to reach his followers directly, and so he had to reach them through middlemen, like publishing companies, media companies. These often performed services necessary for the whole relationship to work, like book printing, book binding, managing big teams of people famous screenwriters and directors could work with to produce a movie, etc. These middlemen are now being put out of the picture through technological changes, and are trying to fight it through legal means. New, more efficient channels connecting the creator with the followers are springing up, but they are not yet what they will be in the future. For example, pick five favourite hentai manga authors. If they embraced the change (this comes slowly), and legal gunk was cut through (this is even slower), and it was possible to have on every one of their galleries a PayPal donate button, which would deposit money directly on their account, and tell people that the more donation come, the more work they will be able to produce in the future, you think no donations could come? I regularly donate to support creators I like. The myth that authors have to make their living through packing up their creations in distinct chunks that have to be paid for by every person separately survives only because that's how things were done in the past, not because it's a sensible way to do things with information. It makes less and less sense in the presence of Internet today, and I can only hope that ancient laws can be put straight to let the connection between creator and his following reach such efficiency that we would be able to "Like" or "+1" a page or a frame or a speech bubble in the manga we're reading, and that would automatically become part of statistics available to the author, and would also a microtransaction, depositing some money on his account, with no additional action necessary.
Unless current copyright laws are set in stone and lock up these new channels and keep creativity in XXth century...

There are certain parts of our society that are without argument pretty messed up. Banks and lawyers are pretty much at the top of that list. But these are people who are not producing or contributing anything, they're simply taking advantage of the hard work of others. I see I big difference between these types and doujinshi artists.

By definition, doujinshi are supposed to be relatively non-commercial. I'm not sure how strongly that holds when they're selling copies through Tora/Melon/Mandarake, but at Comiket at least there's limits to the print runs and prices so that they're not making massive profits over production costs. And there are no corporations behind them, unless you count the printing companies. They're all small groups of people (or even just one person) who wanted to make a book.

So I ask again, how does screwing over doujinshi artists further your goal of making a better world?

All good points. So I ask again, why do you still think I'm screwing them over? I know many of them think so, they've been taught to think that and how the world works, but I'm explaining here to you how it makes no sense, why do you still think it'll hurt their business rather than further it?

It's in their interest to gain the biggest following, and to make it the easiest for this following to support them. E-Hentai gets them fans they would have never gathered on their own, and yet they keep fighting to make it hard for people to give them money by clinging to laws that keep new innovative ways of doing so illegal, and fight to keep themselves unknown by petitioning to remove their works from places where they get them new fans. It's clear to me that they don't know what they're doing, and they're harming themselves, while the sharing community (indirectly and as an aside) fights to let them become visible and gain the money along with the following. Even if it's against their will, I still think it's doing them good, and will allow them to get much more money than they do now, and gather following much earlier than they do now with doujinshi production and hoping to get picked up by major manga publisher. Just look at what Amazon did to similar publishing industry in America with its Kindle, and with an offer to let the authors pick their covers, set their prices, get 70% of profits (instead of 17% the legacy publishers give), and how the authors fought against this in their articles and blog posts, and how they now benefit from it. Example summary: [jakonrath.blogspot.com] http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/02/do-l...at-authors.html
You know how much even good mangakas make from their publisher contracts? Often still not enough to just draw for a living. Publishers will eventually go out of the picture, and someone will finally make a distribution network, something like a Facebook widget, which will allow putting whole comics, mangas and ebooks everywhere, sharing them for free with a click of a button, and each of these shared copies will have a Donate/Like/+1 button on them, leading directly to author's account and links to author's webpage/blog/whatever, enabling the viewer to give the author some money immediately and without thinking.