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post Nov 8 2011, 00:11
Post #61
Hitsuyou-H



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QUOTE(PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore @ Nov 7 2011, 12:54) *

5/22/11: "...I'm going to try my best to disappear."
8/7/11: "From this point on, this blog is effectively dead."
8/7/11: "bye"
10/31/11: (C75) [Jingai-Makyou] Himetaru Yume ni Kotauru Kami wa. (Index)
10/31/11: "I realize that I already made my farewell post this past summer"

You didn't actually quit? So then, might I ask: what does "farewell" mean to you?

For an attempt, that's an awfully long time with nothing substantive to show and some awfully suggestive (to put it lightly) words which, combined with the suggestive gap, seem like pretty damning evidence to me. You quit. Even if you came back, it doesn't alter that big empty space where you were saying, "Fuck everyone."

But let's play along a bit. Which before? If it's any of the above, then so help me, from what I see on your blog, I've got no idea how you failed the attempt. As near as I can tell, you succeeded marvelously (right up until Himetaru).


The May post was what I was referring to. In May, I truly intended to quit. I didn't know I was going to return.

The August post, which was what "farewell" referred to, was when I ceased working independently, not when I quit; indeed, if you actually read the entire post, I said I was still working with LWB, and I was very careful to say that "Hitsuyou Translations" was going on hiatus, not that I myself was. I was still translating, but I was abandoning the blog. I acted independently with this release because I didn't want to paint the LWB name and all of the group's members with my personal views.

As for works, aside from what I mentioned on my blog:

Translated and edited:
https://e-hentai.org/g/408158/4dc59e87bd/

Translation checked (in addition to general QC):
https://e-hentai.org/g/375661/0e0c76a7f7/
https://e-hentai.org/g/409892/f053841603/
https://e-hentai.org/g/420260/7423449af8/
https://e-hentai.org/g/416109/3311712db3/
https://e-hentai.org/g/424254/28375498e5/

Was in the process of translating:
https://e-hentai.org/s/6fdf6bedcd/219345-3 + https://e-hentai.org/s/dba0a345eb/219345-4
https://e-hentai.org/g/398849/c92fbbb768/
https://e-hentai.org/g/414141/51a77b676e/
https://e-hentai.org/g/405857/ac9f20f33a/

Was in the process of editing:
https://e-hentai.org/g/241915/73eb590513/

True, it may not be very substantial, but I was basically running on fumes after the burnout in May.

QUOTE(PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore @ Nov 7 2011, 12:54) *

"Self-indulgent" wasn't about people disagreeing with you, it was about you withdrawing all force from you statement by withdrawing from translating. If you're not going to "fight the good fight", then I'm not inclined to give any weight to what you have to say. I won't begrudge you your reasons, whatever they may be, but I definitely don't think you needed to say all you did.

What makes me different is that I wasn't saying it for me, I was saying it for limc.


The only reason I'm not "fighting the good fight" is that the fight has a tendency of crippling me, leading to a very costly recovery period. I figured if I was going to go down in flames anyway, it was my responsibility to say anything of value that was left in my head before I left. That resulted in the blog post. Everything else was emotional venting. When I was dealing with machine translation in May, I said neither. The blog post just bounced around in my head and distracted me when I was trying to work on projects not related to the machine translations. The anger that I bottled up made just about everything I attempted, scanlation or anything else, a living hell. This time, I did not want to repeat either mistake. So yes, I did need to say all that I said.

You may have been saying it for limc's sake, but that does not make your words his. Ultimately, you and no one else determined what you decided to say. That is what I call self-indulgence - arguing in itself is inherently self-indulgent. If you had to argue in someone else's place to not be self-indulgent, then does that mean arguing for one's own viewpoints is something that warrants complete dismissal?

QUOTE(PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore @ Nov 7 2011, 12:54) *

I think you underestimate how hard I think it is. o_O At the same time, though, I'm not you, I don't have your problems with it. =/


Hardship enough to drive me to become a nocturnal hikikomori for a month, skipping twelve of sixteen hours of class per week, not doing any of my EE problem sets, turning in every single CS project assigned in that time late, all the while cutting myself off from all contact with people I know in real life, including my parents and my roommate, finally ending the nocturnal period only to start sleeping every other day - is that what you had in mind?

QUOTE(PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore @ Nov 7 2011, 12:54) *

Nice try with the bait and switch, but effective != logical.

The purpose of inflammatory arguments is to provoke a knee-jerk, emotionally-based response. The purpose of an effective argument is to provoke reasoned discussion. It's not impossible to get past the inflammatory to the logic, but you're sure as hell NOT effective.

That being said, I think what you did was that you had inflammatory comments, but your arguments were mostly free of that. In fact, I saw rather little that I considered outright inflammatory, so maybe you failed at that. =P (Of course, I won't claim I've read every word of your wall of text again to make sure, but I think I took a decent sample.) If anything, perhaps you had a more provocative tone than inflammatory.


I see. Given those definitions, I guess I was going for provocative more than inflammatory with my blog post. My goal in channeling my anger into my arguments was to grab attention and make people think about things they wouldn't normally think about. When I am truly trying to be inflammatory by my own definition, though, I'm not trying to provoke specific responses - I don't think that far ahead when I make comments that aren't blog posts. I'm just trying to unload all that I feel, even though I know that people aren't going to like it.

QUOTE(PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore @ Nov 7 2011, 12:54) *

The context was "care about your concerns", yours, specifically, when you previously made your petition, or more generally anyone doing similarly; not about caring about the work. Either your response is way off target, or I'm not sure where you drew the connection between what I said/meant and your response here. Unless you see fit to clarify or correct your response, I don't know how to respond to that.

At the end...either that's a typo, or I don't rightly understand, so...you're not going to convince me to care? Is that what you mean? If so, I'm lost, but then, I don't think I'm inclined to care...


I was under the impression that you were talking about caring about quality of translation; I was looking a little too early in Micah's blockquote. That said, I still stand by my statement - my petition was that the people involved in the JCE projects should have some translation checking (or that the JCE release was going to end up bad because the JC release had issues, if you meant the second post), and not caring about the request, in my mind, at least, implies that you don't care about what was said in that request.

What I meant, to put it in plainer language, was that I can't force you to care, but that should not deter me from doing my best to convince you. Maybe I misused the phrase "heaven forbid".

This post has been edited by Hitsuyou-H: Nov 8 2011, 00:46
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post Nov 8 2011, 01:28
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Red of EHCOVE



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QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 7 2011, 13:30) *
If you find that disrespectful, that's just it - considering your consistent efforts to willfully flood the site with bad (yes, bad - not imperfect, bad) releases, I cannot find within me any reason to respect you.


Sigh. You make a lot of good comments on translations, and great translations to boot. Which is why I really have trouble understanding why do you feel the need to elevate yourself by spitting at others so much. But, as Peeps said, I also don't particularly care. After all, it's the Internet (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As I said in my comment, I am fine with agreeing to disagree with you, even through apparently you have to do it by spitting at me and some of my colleagues here.

It's not like don' care about proofreading or such. We do our best to proofread, edit and such, and many of our bounties go further than works of established groups (translating credits and sfxes, for example). That we don't have enough translators and nobody volunteered to double-check JCE works is simply a proof of how understaffed our entire scanlation community is. I'd love to see a J translator volunteer to check our scripts, and we would gladly reedit any past releases when an improved script will become available. But we (I) refuse to wait till kingdom come hoping that somebody will volunteer for that. If we have a product that seems to be a translation, not a rewrite, in good English, we will release it (and in the rare case it is a JCE work, we will add that disclaimer). That's our quality criteria. It's a simple as that. I really don't understand why you are so passionate about that - I've seen JE professed craplations that are much poorer quaity than our JCE work.

This post has been edited by Red_Piotrus: Nov 8 2011, 01:33
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post Nov 8 2011, 01:53
Post #63
Hitsuyou-H



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QUOTE(Red_Piotrus @ Nov 7 2011, 15:28) *

Sigh. You make a lot of good comments on translations, and great translations to boot. Which is why I really have trouble understanding why do you feel the need to elevate yourself by spitting at others so much. But, as Peeps said, I also don't particularly care. After all, it's the Internet (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As I said in my comment, I am fine with agreeing to disagree with you, even through apparently you have to do it by spitting at me and some of my colleagues here.


I'm not trying to elevate myself. I'm just trying to bring you down from your delusion that you're doing the right thing here.

QUOTE(Red_Piotrus @ Nov 7 2011, 15:28) *

It's not like don' care about proofreading or such. We do our best to proofread, edit and such, and many of our bounties go further than works of established groups (translating credits and sfxes, for example). That we don't have enough translators and nobody volunteered to double-check JCE works is simply a proof of how understaffed our entire scanlation community is. I'd love to see a J translator volunteer to check our scripts, and we would gladly reedit any past releases when an improved script will become available. But we (I) refuse to wait till kingdom come hoping that somebody will volunteer for that.


So why not look for a proofreader? In this case, you knew someone was interested and ready to produce a quality release, so why not even try to cooperate? Is one PM and a day to wait for a reply too much to ask before you go butchering the story?

QUOTE(Red_Piotrus @ Nov 7 2011, 15:28) *

If we have a product that seems to be a translation, not a rewrite, in good English, we will release it (and in the rare case it is a JCE work, we will add that disclaimer). That's our quality criteria. It's a simple as that. I really don't understand why you are so passionate about that - I've seen JE professed craplations that are much poorer quaity than our JCE work.


Don't worry, I rage at JE craplations just as much as I do at JCE in general. And I really don't understand this mindset you have: "Bad things exist, so it's perfectly fine to make more bad things!"

Overall, I think you're seriously misunderstanding something here. I'm not asking for perfection, exactly. I'm looking for attempted perfection. I realize that it is unreasonable to ask for near-perfection from everyone, but I don't think it is unreasonable to ask them to try. At the beginning of a "career", every JE translator who is giving it his all has the potential to approach perfection. Even if there are bumps early on, every failure that is pointed out can help the translator learn and grow, if the translator chooses to do so. It is only by accepting this that perfection can be approached, and I believe (and hope others believe, too) that to not do so, as I've said, is irresponsible. This is why among JE translators, I still harbor resentment for, say, CGRascal, but no longer feel hostility toward, say, ackeejag of Pineapples 'R Us. That's not to say that the latter translator is approaching perfection, but he actually takes criticism seriously, whereas CGRascal has consistently remained at the same level for a number of years. So if choosing to not learn and grow and do the very best that is known to be possible is a problem with JE translators, imagine what it is like for the secondary translators, the machine translators, and even the rewriters. These people do not even have the ability to learn and grow from criticism without actually learning Japanese and understanding the source, and the tools they use to partially compensate for that just don't cut it. Basically, these translators who don't know Japanese are resigning themselves to produce works that are wrong at heart, works that are not elegant in body, and works that completely lack soul. To me, this is the single worst thing that can happen in a translation community. So if I see it, what am I to do?

This post has been edited by Hitsuyou-H: Nov 8 2011, 01:55
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post Nov 8 2011, 02:18
Post #64
PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore



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QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 7 2011, 16:11) *

The May post was what I was referring to. In May, I truly intended to quit. I didn't know I was going to return.

Oh, you did intend to quit? OK, even if I allow that the earliest work you linked (Aug 15) was being worked on as much as a month earlier, you still quit for as much as 2-3 months, and you "truly" intended to, it wasn't some half-assed attempt. OK, you were doing work that didn't show up on your blog, but it still sounds like you're stretching "not actually quitting". You quit. You came back. Why can't it be that simple?

QUOTE
The only reason I'm not "fighting the good fight" is that the fight has a tendency of crippling me, leading to a very costly recovery period. I figured if I was going to go down in flames anyway, it was my responsibility to say anything of value that was left in my head before I left.

If that's truly how it has to be for you, then I do hope you're earnest about "quitting" this time. And by quitting I mean leaving this sort of thing alone. I hope it's all out and it stays out. I think I like you, but not so much what you did there.

QUOTE
You may have been saying it for limc's sake, but that does not make your words his. Ultimately, you and no one else determined what you decided to say. That is what I call self-indulgence - arguing in itself is inherently self-indulgent. If you had to argue in someone else's place to not be self-indulgent, then does that mean arguing for one's own viewpoints is something that warrants complete dismissal?

No, it certainly doesn't make my words his...

You're missing...yeah, I think my entire point on self-indulgence. You've completely transformed it into your point, now, with no relation whatsoever to mine. But, okay, fine, let's see about this...yeah, never mind, I'm not going to try to argue this over the internet. As far as I'm concerned, your interpretation of self-indulgent is so out there, I'm not sure I'd be anything but flabbergasted even face-to-face, much less over the internet...I don't know how that works for you, but you're welcome to it. I don't have the energy to care any further.

QUOTE
Hardship enough to drive me to become a nocturnal hikikomori for a month, skipping twelve of sixteen hours of class per week, not doing any of my EE problem sets, turning in every single CS project assigned in that time late, all the while cutting myself off from all contact with people I know in real life, including my parents and my roommate, finally ending the nocturnal period only to start sleeping every other day - is that what you had in mind?

That's your hard. Not my hard. You said, "It's a lot harder than you think", not "harder on me", "me" being you, Hitsuyou. I pretty much think it's impossible, "it" being "do anything about [JCE translations]", as I took it. We may be interpreting that part a bit differently as well... Meh, I was half-joking in the first place, so that may be my bad. =/

QUOTE
My goal in channeling my anger into my arguments was to grab attention and make people think about things they wouldn't normally think about.

See, that's a good goal. But then there's the problem of your anger being involved, and you went name-calling and trashing JCE translators in general, and that's less good...the unnecessary part, I'd like to believe.

QUOTE
I was under the impression that you were talking about caring about quality of translation; I was looking a little too early in Micah's blockquote. That said, I still stand by my statement - my petition was that the people involved in the JCE projects should have some translation checking (or that the JCE release was going to end up bad because the JC release had issues, if you meant the second post), and not caring about the request, in my mind, at least, implies that you don't care about what was said in that request.

Nope, I indeed meant the earlier post. =P Heaven forbid I claim that a JCE release won't have issues.

Okay, I made a similar connection myself, that not caring about the request itself means not caring about what it's about, but it was yours to confirm. What you're trying to do is get people to care about a certain quality of translation. You have two problems. 1) You're on the internet, so you have very little leverage. 2) People have different opinions than you and (as we've established, being on the internet) they've got very little reason to change their minds. You really, honestly can't make people care, and when they fail to, that doesn't make their failure to care any excuse for what you may do afterwards (to bring it back around to MicahTantei's point (sort of?); I don't mean to accuse you of that).

QUOTE
What I meant, to put it in plainer language, was that I can't force you to care, but that should not deter me from doing my best to convince you. Maybe I misused the phrase "heaven forbid".

Yeah...Wiktionary: "To say that one hopes that something does not happen." That's one of those definitions that can confuse you by making double negatives, but there should have been a "not" in your original statement. I guess I just used an example above (having read this part already by that time), almost without realizing it, so...yeah, like that.
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post Nov 8 2011, 02:30
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Hitsuyou-H



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QUOTE(PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore @ Nov 7 2011, 16:18) *

Oh, you did intend to quit? OK, even if I allow that the earliest work you linked (Aug 15) was being worked on as much as a month earlier, you still quit for as much as 2-3 months, and you "truly" intended to, it wasn't some half-assed attempt. OK, you were doing work that didn't show up on your blog, but it still sounds like you're stretching "not actually quitting". You quit. You came back. Why can't it be that simple?


In that time, I was working on what I did mention on the blog.

Finished translating:
https://e-hentai.org/g/387824/5d4c586a31/
https://e-hentai.org/s/abfae59a53/361849-16

Finished translation checking and editing:
https://e-hentai.org/g/378425/4c6c4d9b5c/

Was in the process of translating:
https://e-hentai.org/g/317672/7105495c62/
https://e-hentai.org/g/363966/2596b5aa80/

QUOTE(PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore @ Nov 7 2011, 16:18) *

But then there's the problem of your anger being involved, and you went name-calling and trashing JCE translators in general, and that's less good...the unnecessary part, I'd like to believe.


But I fully intended to criticize JCE translators in general. That's what my most of my rant was dedicated to: attacking the approach, not the specific release. The only reason I said anything specific to the release was to prove a point about JCE in general.

For the other points that were brought up in our discussion, I think we've said pretty much all there is to say at this point (well, aside from the whole self-indulgence thing, but I'm really doubting my ability to coherently express myself on that), so I'll leave it at that.

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post Nov 8 2011, 04:21
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QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 7 2011, 18:53) *

I'm not trying to elevate myself. I'm just trying to bring you down from your delusion that you're doing the right thing here.


So what's the wrong thing that elicits so much vehemence in you? Are you angry at the our Chinese -> English translators, that they decided to do what they can to help our community? Are you angry at the editors? Or are you angry at me, the sponsor for this bounty, that I decided to take the Chinese translators on their offer and provide them with support? Or is it the end result that we bring the JCE works to the public at all? How can you even argue that no translation at all is better is beyond me. If somebody wants perfection, they can ignore the JCE works. For most of the rest, the story is there, and English is good, so what if it is not as close to the original, just, let's say, 80% instead of the 95% you can do?

If you want to put en end to the JCE works, go and translate all the 100-200 works that have only C versions, so we have nothing left to work on.

Of course, you cannot do that, nor can you get us enough J translators to do that. But you still will argue that it's better to have no translations? No, I still do not follow.

Perhaps it's our attitude to those work. I see JCE as no worse than 80% accuracy, give or take, and consider it acceptable. You either see them as much less so, or require a higher accuracy.

QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 7 2011, 18:53) *


So why not look for a proofreader? In this case, you knew someone was interested and ready to produce a quality release, so why not even try to cooperate? Is one PM and a day to wait for a reply too much to ask before you go butchering the story?


I think this time you clearly misunderstood something. We proofread things, but there is no dedicated one, because nobody volunteered. Trust me, I'd never refuse any offer to help.


QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 7 2011, 18:53) *


Don't worry, I rage at JE craplations just as much as I do at JCE in general. And I really don't understand this mindset you have: "Bad things exist, so it's perfectly fine to make more bad things!"

Overall, I think you're seriously misunderstanding something here. I'm not asking for perfection, exactly. I'm looking for attempted perfection. I realize that it is unreasonable to ask for near-perfection from everyone, but I don't think it is unreasonable to ask them to try. At the beginning of a "career", every JE translator who is giving it his all has the potential to approach perfection. Even if there are bumps early on, every failure that is pointed out can help the translator learn and grow, if the translator chooses to do so. It is only by accepting this that perfection can be approached, and I believe (and hope others believe, too) that to not do so, as I've said, is irresponsible. This is why among JE translators, I still harbor resentment for, say, CGRascal, but no longer feel hostility toward, say, ackeejag of Pineapples 'R Us. That's not to say that the latter translator is approaching perfection, but he actually takes criticism seriously, whereas CGRascal has consistently remained at the same level for a number of years. So if choosing to not learn and grow and do the very best that is known to be possible is a problem with JE translators, imagine what it is like for the secondary translators, the machine translators, and even the rewriters. These people do not even have the ability to learn and grow from criticism without actually learning Japanese and understanding the source, and the tools they use to partially compensate for that just don't cut it. Basically, these translators who don't know Japanese are resigning themselves to produce works that are wrong at heart, works that are not elegant in body, and works that completely lack soul. To me, this is the single worst thing that can happen in a translation community. So if I see it, what am I to do?


I like attempted perfection, but it has to be tempered by practicality. As I said, I am unwilling to wait for the potential J translator or proofreader to offer their services; we did in fact wait for weeks while the first JCE scripts were in production, and in fact we are still waiting. I refuse to wait months or years for such a person to materialize, which may never happen. I like helpful criticism, but saying "get a proofreader" or "get a real J translator for that" when it is beyond us to magic such a person into existence is not very helpful.
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post Nov 8 2011, 06:10
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OK, PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore, you're starting to annoy me now. I'm having great difficulty understanding exactly what your argument is. Initially, I thought it was that what Bamboo said should be discounted because he had ulterior motives (drama queening and inflating his ego by attacking other people's work). So, in addition to the point that I think an argument stands on its own, independent of anyone's motives, I pointed out that I thought Bamboo did mean what he said and that it wasn't just grandstanding.

After that you proceeded to argue that Bamboo was making himself out to be a martyr when the JCE translations didn't really cause him to quit. However, I think Bamboo made the point that he was strongly affected by JCE translations, among other things. He also showed that he was somewhat active when he decided to quit (for the second time).

After that you claimed that one of your main points that you spent several paragraphs on (that Bamboo should translate everything that's been translated into Chinese to prevent secondary translations if he cares about it) was a joke. As if it wasn't obvious in the first place. In addition to that, you danced around the issues that you brought up and made negative comments about arguing over the internet.

QUOTE
Protip: if you're going to quit anyway, whatever you're trying to say IN THE SAME BREATH immediately becomes invalid.

That's the main thing that I have issue with. How does Bamboo's manner of quitting factor into the validity of his criticisms? You even seem to admit that you consider his arguments separate, but at the same time you dismiss the whole thing because of... what? At this point, I have no idea what you're arguing.

In regards to the "care enough" part, I don't require you to care enough. I simply wanted to indicate that there were methods to avoid conflict, should anyone have wished to take them. But I think your response here, when put together with some of your other statements, is very telling.

Truly, it's no surprise that you wouldn't think much of arguing over the internet if you can't tell the difference between an inflammatory argument and a diplomatic one. Maybe you can get away with hammering someone into submission when you argue in person, but when you do that on the internet, people tend to yell back. The difference I meant to emphasize between inflammatory and diplomatic is that while a diplomatic argument attempts to see the other person's point of view, compromise, and generally build bridges, an inflammatory one doesn't pull punches and doesn't offer any consolation to the other person. By your standards, an inflammatory argument is actually more effective since it's more likely to be a ruthless statement of the facts. Of course, in reality, they just end in petty bickering and all sides arguing around each other, while being convinced that they are right.

And that's exactly what we're doing now, myself included. I have no delusions about it, but at least I'm still trying to make sound arguments. I swear to god, I'll beat the truth into you yet! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This discussion has really gotten all over the place, though, so I would appreciate it if you put down your argument in a coherent, reasonably concise manner. As it stands right now, I don't really know what this is about, but I'd like to do some more petty bickering.

My primary issue is that I think your statements are disrespectful toward Bamboo while marginalizing the crux of the issue, which is the validity of JCE translations and whether or not they're worthwhile.
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post Nov 8 2011, 07:08
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QUOTE(MicahTantei @ Nov 7 2011, 23:10) *


My primary issue is that I think your statements are disrespectful toward Bamboo while marginalizing the crux of the issue, which is the validity of JCE translations and whether or not they're worthwhile.


Oh, put a tentacle in it. I think the most annoying situation I found on the 'net is when Person A flames somebody (say, by saying f*** them and calling their work s***), Person B complains about it, and then a misguided/trolling Person C comes in and accuses person B of being disrespectful. Sigh.
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post Nov 8 2011, 08:26
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Replace flaming with criticism and complaining with attacking someone's character and you have the situation correctly.

But do you really take what Bamboo said as a personal attack? Because I don't see it. I think all of his points are at least understandable if not valid.

And as for profanity, come off it. You have zero room to speak, having used the same language.

This post has been edited by MicahTantei: Nov 8 2011, 08:31
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post Nov 8 2011, 08:46
Post #70
Alberto1



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Our friend Hitsuyou-H might be having a bad case of taking the internet too seriously and also smell because of all the hikkikomoriness, but he has a point. Back in the day, I did some bad translations, and boy are they painful to read(I also feel a similar way about decensoring, which I just find tacky). I agree there should be a level of quality to aspire to, and if you're ok with just having a "general idea" of the work, you can probably get the same understanding from ocr and machine translations. Of course, Red_Piotrus, that guy has no power to stop you, but just bear in mind that you're aiming way too low.
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post Nov 8 2011, 08:55
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PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore



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QUOTE(MicahTantei @ Nov 7 2011, 22:10) *
OK, PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore, you're starting to annoy me now. I'm having great difficulty understanding exactly what your argument is. Initially, I thought it was that what Bamboo said should be discounted because he had ulterior motives (drama queening and inflating his ego by attacking other people's work). So, in addition to the point that I think an argument stands on its own, independent of anyone's motives, I pointed out that I thought Bamboo did mean what he said and that it wasn't just grandstanding.

I can see how it would be annoying that I didn't make my initial argument clear enough, leading to an unfortunate and mistaken assumption. You have my apologies for that.

QUOTE
After that you proceeded to argue that Bamboo was making himself out to be a martyr when the JCE translations didn't really cause him to quit. However, I think Bamboo made the point that he was strongly affected by JCE translations, among other things. He also showed that he was somewhat active when he decided to quit (for the second time).

He made one point. There was one publicly visible data point. Only when he responded here was other data revealed, and I've given him that. But before that, by all appearances, it was just him giving up for no good reason, and then he shows back up and says, "Damn JCE translations!" (paraphrasing). As for being active, if you're referring to the projects he listed in his Himetaru post on his blog, that's more suggestive of recent activity than activity over the entire gap that was evident on his blog (suggesting he had quit).

QUOTE
After that you claimed that one of your main points that you spent several paragraphs on (that Bamboo should translate everything that's been translated into Chinese to prevent secondary translations if he cares about it) was a joke. As if it wasn't obvious in the first place. In addition to that, you danced around the issues that you brought up and made negative comments about arguing over the internet.

Oh, I see where you tripped up. No, please consider it more carefully. The joke I was referring to was the part he had quoted. In specific: "I think you underestimate how hard I think it is. o_O" The tackling of doujin that had been translated to Chinese wasn't a joke, as such.

I'm sorry to say I don't know how to answer your other accusations (well, the internet part I address below (search: "unique challenges")) since you've provided little in the way of clues for me to know exactly what issues you're referring to that I danced about.

QUOTE
That's the main thing that I have issue with. How does Bamboo's manner of quitting factor into the validity of his criticisms? You even seem to admit that you consider his arguments separate, but at the same time you dismiss the whole thing because of... what? At this point, I have no idea what you're arguing.

You mistake me here: it's not his manner of quitting, it's the fact that he is. (...You may think this argument is unfinished as is, but if there's anything to complete, I'd rather do it after you've answered the below.)

I'm not sure where, "You even seem to admit that you consider his arguments separate [...]" comes from, but I'd appreciate you clarifying where it's from exactly, especially if it's not from what you quoted (my 'protip'). Until I know this for sure, I'm unable to address your confusion.

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In regards to the "care enough" part, I don't require you to care enough. I simply wanted to indicate that there were methods to avoid conflict, should anyone have wished to take them. But I think your response here, when put together with some of your other statements, is very telling.

By your original statement, you did require us to "care enough" in order to avoid conflict. I don't care whether that's what you meant, the problem with your statement was what I was addressing.

A question occurs to me. Do any of these potential methods to avoid conflict you have in mind start from Hitsuyou's perspective, rather than ours (this forum/subforum's)? Your original statement certainly laid the entire burden on us, but it's not very fair if all your options do that. Hitsuyou at least carries some of the blame for the manner in which he made his post, which means he should have been able to prevent "this whole thing" as well.

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Truly, it's no surprise that you wouldn't think much of arguing over the internet if you can't tell the difference between an inflammatory argument and a diplomatic one. Maybe you can get away with hammering someone into submission when you argue in person, but when you do that on the internet, people tend to yell back.

Oh, ha! Hell no. I'm far less eloquent than I'd like to be, in person. It's only when I've got all the time in the world to hash out my response that I can muster my arguments and come off articulate. Still, there are multiple, and far more immediate, channels in person that make arguing off the internet entirely different from arguing on the internet. Easier in its way, but - for me - certainly not eloquent, and certainly not in any form to "hammer someone into submission".

You cannot change the unique challenges of arguing over the internet, and you will not demean me by attempting to disparage me for avoiding it where I judge my time may better be spent elsewise. (Not, "you shall not"; it just won't work.)

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The difference I meant to emphasize between inflammatory and diplomatic is that while a diplomatic argument attempts to see the other person's point of view, compromise, and generally build bridges, an inflammatory one doesn't pull punches and doesn't offer any consolation to the other person. By your standards, an inflammatory argument is actually more effective since it's more likely to be a ruthless statement of the facts. Of course, in reality, they just end in petty bickering and all sides arguing around each other, while being convinced that they are right.

Wait, by my standards? Which standards are those? I know what I wrote a while back, but I don't see how you could be getting what you claim of me here from that. So please, clarify? If I'm going to answer any of this, it starts from there.

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And that's exactly what we're doing now, myself included. I have no delusions about it, but at least I'm still trying to make sound arguments. I swear to god, I'll beat the truth into you yet! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

What? I...swear to God, I have been trying to make sound arguments, I have...

As for beating the truth into me, though, I'm afraid I might be about to disappoint you...

QUOTE
This discussion has really gotten all over the place, though, so I would appreciate it if you put down your argument in a coherent, reasonably concise manner. As it stands right now, I don't really know what this is about, but I'd like to do some more petty bickering.

My primary issue is that I think your statements are disrespectful toward Bamboo while marginalizing the crux of the issue, which is the validity of JCE translations and whether or not they're worthwhile.

There's a problem with that. Hitsuyou very considerately showed up and threw a monkey wrench into everything, seeming to be a reasonable sort of guy and offering further testimony that JCE translations are a thing for him. So my arguments then are not so effective now. And at this point, I have neither the energy nor the inclination to remake an argument. I still disagree with Hitsuyou's manner, but I'm not interested in figuring out right now exactly why what he did was wrong (IMO). I gave it a try, at least half of that broke down, and I'm not nearly invested enough in this matter to take it back up all over again.

I'm terribly sorry to disappoint your desire for further petty bickering, but I'm afraid I'm not up to it. =/ Maybe next time you'll learn to respond faster. =P

Although, I'm still invested enough to respond to any outstanding points in (this, here) my response, above, so if that'll do you, we can bicker about that a bit.


QUOTE(Alberto1 @ Nov 8 2011, 00:46) *
Of course, Red_Piotrus, that guy has no power to stop you, but just bear in mind that you're aiming way too low.

I think Red's shown that he knows exactly where he's aiming as far as he's concerned, and that he's perfectly happy with that no matter what anyone else says. Can we get past blaming him for it now?

This post has been edited by PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore: Nov 8 2011, 08:59
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post Nov 8 2011, 09:37
Post #72
MicahTantei



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QUOTE
There's a problem with that. Hitsuyou very considerately showed up and threw a monkey wrench into everything, seeming to be a reasonable sort of guy and offering further testimony that JCE translations are a thing for him. So my arguments then are not so effective now. And at this point, I have neither the energy nor the inclination to remake an argument. I still disagree with Hitsuyou's manner, but I'm not interested in figuring out right now exactly why what he did was wrong (IMO). I gave it a try, at least half of that broke down, and I'm not nearly invested enough in this matter to take it back up all over again.


There, thank you. I don't care about the other points, and have no inclinations to debate trivialities. If you have nothing in particular that you're accusing Bamboo of, then there's nothing to discuss. If you simply don't like how he presented himself, that's your own business, and it would be useless to debate, assuming I wanted to.

As for everything else, I made a lot of generalizations based on my impressions that may or may not be correct. If you believe I've misrepresented your position, I'll gladly withdraw my statements. You're in the best position to represent yourself, after all.
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post Nov 8 2011, 18:05
Post #73
Hitsuyou-H



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QUOTE(Red_Piotrus @ Nov 7 2011, 18:21) *

I think this time you clearly misunderstood something. We proofread things, but there is no dedicated one, because nobody volunteered. Trust me, I'd never refuse any offer to help.


I ask once again: why not ask for help?


QUOTE(Red_Piotrus @ Nov 7 2011, 18:21) *

Perhaps it's our attitude to those work. I see JCE as no worse than 80% accuracy, give or take, and consider it acceptable. You either see them as much less so, or require a higher accuracy.


The former. JCE is much, much worse than 80% to me. The thing is, unless you're an actual translator, you'll never know why. Can you see the soul of a story? I can. But if you would try to translate something without actually going into the original text, without being able to look at what makes the story what it is, you will never even be aware that a soul is there. The general idea, the thing that you are trying to salvage from this approach, is actually a much smaller part of the translation process than you think.

I believe this is why nothing I say is getting through to you, and until you even make the effort to try and understand, I do not think I can respect you.

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post Nov 8 2011, 19:42
Post #74
Red of EHCOVE



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QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 8 2011, 11:05) *

I ask once again: why not ask for help?


Because that's a roll call thread, not an ask-for-help one?

Ok, how about that: you tell me exactly and clearly what kind of help you think I should be asking and where, and I'll strongly consider doing that. Then after a while we can see if there was any reply...
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post Nov 8 2011, 19:45
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I linked to that thread to remind you that translators exist on this site, not just in your threads. Just PM any translator you think would be fit for the job. Is it that complicated? Come on, at least put in some effort.

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post Nov 8 2011, 21:02
Post #76
Red of EHCOVE



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QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 8 2011, 12:45) *

I linked to that thread to remind you that translators exist on this site, not just in your threads. Just PM any translator you think would be fit for the job. Is it that complicated? Come on, at least put in some effort.


That's not how things work around here. We put averts (bounties), dedicated threads, and such, and interested parties contact the poster. We do not spam translators with such requests. I have put enough efforts into that and I do not see the need to spam the translators with proofreading requests. I will, however, in the future, clearly ask after a script is posted if anybody is willing to review it, AND throw a proofreading bounty other there (like I've done for some J scripts in the past). I guess a week wait in the translation bounties section before the script will be released for editing would be a sufficient time; if nobody offers to proofread in that time, my point about people not willing to do this kind of work stands. If I am wrong, well, it's win-win.
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post Nov 8 2011, 21:08
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Well, that's a start. What you guys need more than anything is a working set of brakes.

Okay, I think I've said all I have to say by now. Good luck with everything. You'll need it.

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post Nov 9 2011, 10:13
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MicahTantei



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I'd like to point out that assuming the 80% statistic is correct, I think if you can only understand 80% of something, you don't really understand it. That's one out of every five words or one out of every five sentences. The reader is sure to miss significant details, in addition to less significant ones. If you want to put a percentage on an amount of accuracy that's acceptable, I'd say that 90% would be the absolute minimum, though still a shoddy translation, while 95% is what you'd expect. Even 95% means a significant number of errors, but there's a good chance the reader will be able to get the gist without missing out on too much. Honestly, from a good translator, I would be very surprised to see more than a couple errors, if any.

Personally, I'm not very concerned about JCE translations. While I might be troubled if they became in vogue and everyone started doing them, I doubt there are enough people willing to put significant effort into inherently flawed translations.
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post Nov 9 2011, 12:59
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Done. Now uploading to drop box. Will post link when it's finished.

Dead link, check the newest post for an updated version. Since this was before the policy change, I imagine it's fine to post this here. Feel free to add in any criticisms, as well as proofreading it. I have the unflattened files, so it is relatively easy for me to edit in any missing details.

As for my view on translations: I see no issues with J -> C -> E translations. Providing both were of good quality, then not a whole lot of info is lost. While not as good, it can still be enjoyable. So long as the general idea is given, and not a whole lot of info is lost, then it isn't an issue. That's all I have to say.

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post Nov 9 2011, 13:42
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Dlaglacz



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QUOTE(Hitsuyou-H @ Nov 8 2011, 17:05) *
The former. JCE is much, much worse than 80% to me. The thing is, unless you're an actual translator, you'll never know why. Can you see the soul of a story? I can. But if you would try to translate something without actually going into the original text, without being able to look at what makes the story what it is, you will never even be aware that a soul is there. The general idea, the thing that you are trying to salvage from this approach, is actually a much smaller part of the translation process than you think.
If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself, as always. Or not lose time and settle for less. But not doing the thing, and still losing time on complaining it's not perfect... why? Unless you enjoy this (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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