[X] My Assistant

You're suggesting that JCE translation is *bad* rape, and JE translation is *tender* rape...i.e., both bad. But that doesn't follow for me. If anything, the JCE translations are bad, and the JE translations are good - or, at the very least, if not ideal, certainly not a bad thing.

Edit: Or I jumped to a bit too quick a conclusion. I think I see what you were really trying to do there. In any case, there are more possible solutions for potential rape victims (self-defense measures, off the top of my head) than there are for translated doujin in the wild on the internet.

JE at a rate high enough to keep up with JCE would be tender rape.

The true solution is the same in real life and in the translation community: build up a harem and protect your girls from NTR, with a police force to beat the violent rapists over the head and advocacy groups to remind people that rape is bad. Okay, maybe that's a little off, but hopefully you get the idea. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Death Panda: Nov 10 2011, 06:18

I think we can all agree that JCE translations aren't as bad as rewrites, at the very least.

I think we can all agree that JCE translations aren't as bad as rewrites, at the very least.

That's not to say rewrites aren't somtimes amusing to read.... Like a goofy parody version of a sexual parody of a series (that's full of parodies).

JE at a rate high enough to keep up with JCE would be tender rape.

Bullshit. It's a question of numbers. If you've got enough good JE translators, you don't need to rush anything and you'll get a translation everyone can be happy with. And if you want to say how there are so many more people in China than in the US (or primarily English-speaking countries), then we need to look at the primary source as well: Japan. There are more people in the US than in Japan (to say nothing of adding in other English-speaking countries), so if you assume China will always outpace the US, then the US must always outpace Japan, which means US will eventually translate everything Japan's created, and then there's no more problem.

Bullshit. It's a question of numbers. If you've got enough good JE translators, you don't need to rush anything and you'll get a translation everyone can be happy with. And if you want to say how there are so many more people in China than in the US (or primarily English-speaking countries), then we need to look at the primary source as well: Japan. There are more people in the US than in Japan (to say nothing of adding in other English-speaking countries), so if you assume China will always outpace the US, then the US must always outpace Japan, which means US will eventually translate everything Japan's created, and then there's no more problem.

If. Think about it: how many translators are there in the English-speaking internet? Now, how many artists are there in Japan?

This post has been edited by Death Panda: Nov 10 2011, 06:40

I skimmed through the discussions here, and some of the things said here truly amazes me. To the guy who tried to imply that J>C>E translates give the same level of understanding as machine translates, please tell me what you were using, because that's a lot more advanced than any machine translators I've heard of. The one who was implying that rewrites and guesswork are as good as Chinese translates, I can only hope you are kidding.

My stand on this issue is quite simply:
J>C>E translates lose detail, yes, but the details lost are usually minor, perfectly acceptable by my standards. I didn't read Midnight's version of Himetaru, but from what I've seen on Hitsuyou's analysis in his blog post, many of the more glaring errors were a result of the J>C>E translator not being sufficiently proficient at Chinese, or simply not putting in the effort. The only mistakes that would have been made if a good Chinese translator took the job would be the Yuzuka-chan bubble and PG 5. The "Yuzuka-chan and friends" bit is relatively minor in my opinion as they don't matter that much in the context of the manga. Knowing that extra bit of information would not change the experience that much. Besides, as Hitsuyou also noted, it could have been avoided altogether with some extra effort. The one on PG 5 is more significant, but still an acceptable loss. Of course, all of this is based on the assumption that the J>C translate is of good quality, which seems to be the case in the example.

On why I can't be damned to make sure my work gets a proper proofread from a JP TLer:
I'm fairly confident in my ability to separate the good J>C translates from the poor ones, and in my abilities as a Chinese translator. If you read the previous section, that implies that I think my work is perfectly acceptable. Besides, this is something that I do to kill time(Yes, I know this is the wrong mindset, but hey, I can't help it if I'm not THAT invested in hentai doujins. For me, it honestly is "just porn"). I will do what it takes to get my translate as accurate as possible, but once I release the script, it's up to the requester to fix the translation issues I pointed out(see my Index translate for an example). If he can't be bothered to do that, he probably wouldn't have asked me to work on it in the first place.

To people asking me to change policy:
No, I won't be changing it. I never will, unless a miracle happens and everyone learns to tolerate J>C>E. I don't need the grief for something I'm doing for fun. My response to conflict has always been to concede. This will be no exception.

That's not to say rewrites aren't somtimes amusing to read.... Like a goofy parody version of a sexual parody of a series (that's full of parodies).

The dialogue in those thing is amazing. So much comedy gold. The names of the characters, how they talk, the topics of discussion, and even the pillow talk: All of it is gold. How any one can get off on those things is a mystery to me. I'm too busy busting a gut.

I skimmed through the discussions here, and some of the things said here truly amazes me. To the guy who tried to imply that J>C>E translates give the same level of understanding as machine translates, please tell me what you were using, because that's a lot more advanced than any machine translators I've heard of. The one who was implying that rewrites and guesswork are as good as Chinese translates, I can only hope you are kidding.

My stand on this issue is quite simply:
J>C>E translates lose detail, yes, but the details lost are usually minor, perfectly acceptable by my standards. I didn't read Midnight's version of Himetaru, but from what I've seen on Hitsuyou's analysis in his blog post, many of the more glaring errors were a result of the J>C>E translator not being sufficiently proficient at Chinese, or simply not putting in the effort. The only mistakes that would have been made if a good Chinese translator took the job would be the Yuzuka-chan bubble and PG 5. The "Yuzuka-chan and friends" bit is relatively minor in my opinion as they don't matter that much in the context of the manga. Knowing that extra bit of information would not change the experience that much. Besides, as Hitsuyou also noted, it could have been avoided altogether with some extra effort. The one on PG 5 is more significant, but still an acceptable loss. Of course, all of this is based on the assumption that the J>C translate is of good quality, which seems to be the case in the example.

On why I can't be damned to make sure my work gets a proper proofread from a JP TLer:
I'm fairly confident in my ability to separate the good J>C translates from the poor ones, and in my abilities as a Chinese translator. If you read the previous section, that implies that I think my work is perfectly acceptable. Besides, this is something that I do to kill time(Yes, I know this is the wrong mindset, but hey, I can't help it if I'm not THAT invested in hentai doujins. For me, it honestly is "just porn"). I will do what it takes to get my translate as accurate as possible, but once I release the script, it's up to the requester to fix the translation issues I pointed out(see my Index translate for an example). If he can't be bothered to do that, he probably wouldn't have asked me to work on it in the first place.

To people asking me to change policy:
No, I won't be changing it. I never will, unless a miracle happens and everyone learns to tolerate J>C>E. I don't need the grief for something I'm doing for fun. My response to conflict has always been to concede. This will be no exception.

Well, to be honest, you'll always encounter someone who does not appreciate your work. Even if you translated J-E, there will be someone dogging on you about the quality of it. Whether if it's a result of you using a literal translation, or if you "localized" it. There is no winning, so don't let it bug you. But, if you want to keep the policy as it is now, then that's your choice.

Well, well, someone finally decided to respond to the actual content of my arguments. That is what I was after in writing it. I was going to take the time to go through the rest of that doujin, plus a few of your own productions for good measure, and proceed to explain why "good enough" to you is not actually "good enough", making the distinction between translating stories and translating words, but then I saw this:

For me, it honestly is "just porn"

Well, if it is, why the hell are you here?

This post has been edited by Hitsuyou-H: Nov 10 2011, 06:52

Well, if it is [just porn], why the hell are you here?

something I'm doing for fun.

Or was...

No, why is he here? Why is he still in this thread? Why is he translating if the problems with quality that he can't control don't bother him? Why is he responding to the idea that JCE translations are bad? Why does the quality of his own work matter to him enough for him to explain himself? Why, if he thinks it's just porn and what he's doing is good enough, is there any point in translating things at all rather than just writing out summaries or doing rewrites?

*EDITING* How do I delete this post?

This post has been edited by limc: Nov 10 2011, 07:12

Why is he translating if the problems with quality that he can't control don't bother him?

I don't understand why this would be an impediment.

Why, if he thinks it's just porn and what he's doing is good enough, is there any point in translating things at all rather than just writing out summaries or doing rewrites?

Fun isn't enough reason?

It looks like you're trying to judge another person by your standards, and that really doesn't work well.

The other questions I'll leave to limc if he wants to respond, rather than put words in his mouth. (edit: which he seems to be editing his post to do...)

This post has been edited by PeopleDon'tDanceNoMore: Nov 10 2011, 07:05

If. Think about it: how many translators are there in the English-speaking internet? Now, how many artists are there in Japan?

Those numbers I do not have. Population, easy. Occupation, harder...although honestly, I haven't even tried...and now I have. Fuck it, I searched two statistics spreadsheets (got no hits for 漫画) and I'm understandably (?) not eager to search through the dozens of others. You asked the question, I assume you have the answer. Would you like to share? (And cite sources, please.)

Why is he still in this thread?
To kill time, and for fun.

Why is he translating if the problems with quality that he can't control don't bother him?
They don't bother me because I don't think they are significant enough.

Why is he responding to the idea that JCE translations are bad?
Because I have an opinion and I'd like to share it since this is a forum.

Why does the quality of his own work matter to him enough for him to explain himself?
Believe it or not, I do care about quality, even if I think it's "just porn". When I play games, I'm fully aware that it's "just a game", but I don't play half-heartedly; I play to win, or stop altogether. Same thing here.
Why, if he thinks it's just porn and what he's doing is good enough, is there any point in translating things at all rather than just writing out summaries or doing rewrites?
Because summaries and rewrites are inferior, I can do better than that, so I do.

I know my attitude to this whole thing can be offensive to people who take translating hentai very very seriously, but I'd like it if you stop being so combative. I'm not in the mood for that today.

Okay, limc, I see your responses, and they're valid opinions. But let me ask you this: are you so sure that, just because you think JCE is good enough, it actually is?

I realize that you've already withdrawn, but it seems to be out of dislike of confrontation rather than actually caring about the issue. Though I may be wrong about this, I believe that if I hadn't spoken up, you'd probably still be translating publicly. Tell me: is it worth it to trample over the entire community, translators and readers both, just for your own enjoyment?

This post has been edited by Hitsuyou-H: Nov 10 2011, 07:20

I think they are good enough. That carries as much weight as your "good enough". What is "good enough" varies from person to person, and they have their own standards.

So, yes, his works easily can be considered "good enough". Trying to argue otherwise is just kind of throwing your opinion against his. Thing is, there really is no "better" opinion, so this argument is pointless.

Okay, limc, I see your responses, and they're valid opinions. But let me ask you this: are you so sure that, just because you think JCE is good enough, it actually is?

I can ask the same of you. Are you so sure that, just because you think JCE is not good enough, it actually isn't? Opinions can be such a bitch lol. Well, you're welcome to try to change mine, though I don't think it's likely to happe.

I realize that you've already withdrawn, but it seems to be out of dislike of confrontation rather than actually caring about the issue. Though I may be wrong about this, I believe that if I hadn't spoken up, you'd probably still be translating publicly. Tell me: is it worth it to trample over the entire community, translators and readers both, just for your own enjoyment?

Nope, it's definitely not worth it. But that's under the assumption that what I'm doing is indeed trampling the community. I do agree that I'm definitely going to tread on some translators' toes, but I sincerely think that I'm doing the readers a service, and that matters more than the translators imo.

Here's what I think about readers in general: 2 classes, those who care and those who don't. Those who care will be the people carrying your mindset and must have absolute perfection. They probably wouldn't touch my works with a 5 foot pole since they are labelled as J>C>E. Then there are those who don't care that much, and can live with some minor loss of detail. They'll read my works, and when a more accurate J>E translate comes out, they might hurt the the J>E translators by not reading those, hence reducing motivation of translators, resulting in slightly less J>E releases. As a result, group 1 of readers suffer. BUT I do think that the vast majority of readers belong in group 2, so the net loss in welfare by translators and reader group 1 is offset by the gain in welfare(more translated works!) for group 2.

Of course, it's all guesswork, and there's no way to prove anything since group 2 readers are also commonly known as "leechers". They read, then disappear, so you'll never know of their existence unless you can track download counts. There's also no conclusive evidence that translators like me will reduce J>E activity, other than the odd translator rage quitting. Just because they didn't translate a work since an inferior J>C>E TLer has already done it doesn't mean they release less; there's a lot of material to work with, so the resources were probably directed to other hentai doujins.

It's pretty much like the ongoing debate on whether anime piracy is good or bad for the industry.

Tell me: is it worth it to trample over the entire community, translators and readers both, just for your own enjoyment?

Please do not confuse yourself, or even the faction you represent (many of whom may be supporting you not because of your arguments but because of wanting to suck up to a respected translator and bask in his glory) with the "entire community". Limc works were and are respected and enjoyed by a number of people here and in the galleries, and from where I stand, by harassing him and chasing him away you hurt that community, not the other way around.

Please do not confuse yourself, or even the faction you represent (many of whom may be supporting you not because of your arguments but because of wanting to suck up to a respected translator and bask in his glory) with the "entire community". Limc works were and are respected and enjoyed by a number of people here and in the galleries, and from where I stand, by harassing him and chasing him away you hurt that community, not the other way around.

The flow of arguments in this thread seems to be this:
Somebody on the anti-JCE side of the argument makes a point about the technical flaws of such a method.
Somebody on the pro-JCE side of the argument takes it as a personal attack and gets butthurt.
That person doesn't refute the arguments about the technical flaws, instead launching actual personal attacks on the anti-JCE side because they have no real counter.
Rinse, repeat.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is sucking up to Bamboo here. Everyone who has posted in support of his arguments has:
Read JCE translations before.
Read JE translations before.
Read his blog post.
HAS COME TO THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS BASED ON THE THREE.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I can only assume you've read the blog post and come to your own conclusion. But pretending the argument has no merit doesn't make it go away. Nor does sloppily trying to discredit the opposing side.

'Good enough' seems to have different meanings for both sides as well. 'Good enough' for the anti-JCE side is based on technical merit. In which case, the TLs are NOT 'good enough'. The pro-JCE side, on the other hand, takes the stance that 'good enough' means it's got English words in it. Nothing to do with technical merit.