[X] My Assistant

Localization > Translation

Fan groups and other amateurs that do anime subtitles and so forth are the only ones who leave that sort of thing intact. Professional translations do not, with rare exception. The ultimate goal of a translator should be for their audience to never suspect it was originally in a different language to begin with, and that means doing away with stiff, literal translations and "'pinku' is Japanese for 'pink'" in the margins.

Actually, my view on this is quite different. It is not so much as to the difference between "professional" or "amateur", but more so the "goal" of localization vs (fan) translation.

A so-called "professional" translation (aka localization)'s goal is to promote a localized product. Its goal is to interest people in the "new" product and not the original product. Where as the so-called "amateur" translation (aka fansub/scanlation) is more so produced with the purpose of interesting people in the original Japanese product and the associated culture (and in the process bring more public awareness that leads to localization.... yes a bit contradictory I know). At least this was the case in the beginning of fansubbing culture for anime anyway.... VHS TAPESSSSSSSSSSSS (damn I feel old)

Translators can sometimes get hung up on Japanese nuances and things like titles/suffixes, and I think this really misses the point of translation. It's great that you have the ability to appreciate a work in its native language, but don't project that onto a different audience; you have to give them something to appreciate in their own language. Keeping the word 'senpai' in a translation just because it doesn't have a perfect English equivalent misses the point of why there is no perfect English equivalent. Step outside of your comfort zone and find a way around the word, don't force your audience out of their comfort zone by introducing foreign elements to your translation. There's no doubt this is much harder to do than some people may realize, and while the differences between bad translations and good translations may be obvious, you should strive to understand the much more subtle differences between good translations and great translations.

This again imo is the result of professional localization vs fan translation as per my above comment. There is a cultural reason for things like the titles/suffixes used. From a localization perspective, yes, it gets in the way of the enjoyment of for the individual who does not care to learn about the culture where the product is produced. However, from a fansub/scanlation perspective, its all about spreading something from a culture you enjoy to others, and if preserving said cultural differences mean keeping certain words untranslated because they have no direct translation? so be it... for all you know these terms may eventually become officially accepted words in english at some point! I mean sure the chances of words like "hentai" or "doujinshi" may not get quite a widespread acceptance as words like say "sushi", but then again, the 'comfort zone' for the target audience for a translated hentai manga or doujinshi is quite different from that of a work translated for consumption by the general populace. People who look for fansubs/scanlations tend to have a a lot of the basic terminology under their belt to begin with, and more often than not I find localized terminology sticks out like a sore thumb more so than keeping the original terminology that people are familiar with by now.

Yes for professional translation work, the intended audience is the general populace so localization is key... but more often than not whenever I compare said works to the original, I always feel that there is so much lost in the translation. Sure it does not affect the enjoyment of said work if the localized version is just as good in its own way, but to me its still not the same. I guess in the end it all comes down to me being an oldie, who still believes that the point of fansubs/scanlations is to get others to eventually learn Japanese(language/culture) themselves so they can appreciate the original products in all their glory.........

I don't know.. to me its like serving a Steak in asia... the localized tastes may be suited to the general local populace, but if you're serving to a connoisseur of steaks, do you think (s)he would want the original flavor or the localized version? localized tastes will definitely be for the general public, but if you're just a "amateur" chef who's trying to spread the word on great western-style steak.......

Anyway I'm just ranting now... the above is just my 2 cents, feel free to tear it apart (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Torabo: Apr 9 2013, 11:24

Torabo: Pretty much exactly it.
Personally, if I go to a Chinese restaurant, I expect to get original Chinese food. That almost never happens. :X

@Torabo If you don't mind, can I copy your explanations above to my thread's
first post. I find it really motivating. Well yes in my case, it all started from being a fan of anime that were released from fansubs.

heh, go ahead if you want.. its just a random rant though :3

@Torabo If you don't mind, can I copy your explanations above to my thread's
first post. I find it really motivating. Well yes in my case, it all started from being a fan of anime that were released from fansubs.

Torabo sees it as a stylistic preference whereas I see it is as a difference of experience; realistically it's some combination of the two. The way you translate things is not a matter of style, it's an ugly hybrid of poor skill, lack of patience, and desire for disproportionate reward. You're doing his argument injustice by using it to rationalize being a bad translator.

Stuff

Naturally the biggest disparity here is in the intended audience. Sure, there is an audience that eats up translator's notes and untranslated honorifics and so on, and you probably can't pinpoint which types of material carry which audiences.

That said, my categorization of amateur versus professional translations still stands. Professional translations (actual published material with appropriate licensing, etc.) are almost always 100% localized, whereas amateur translations (fansubs, unofficial doujin releases) are a mixed bag and tend toward the usual characteristics that have been described already. This is not to say that professional translations are inherently better than amateur translations or that there aren't people who prefer amateur style translations over professional localizations; I've seen plenty of fantastic amateur work and some awful professional work. However, there are some absolutes:

1) Localization is harder. There's no question about this, it takes significantly more effort to localize something appropriately than it does to adhere to a strict translation that doesn't push any language barriers. Keeping those honorifics and using translator's notes has valid appeal to certain audiences as you said, but this can be also be used as an excuse to get away with a lazy translation, as evidenced by our friendly neighborhood goat­se. We're essentially talking about the difference between mastery of one language versus mastery of two.
2) That audience which prefers amateur work as some sort of bridge to understanding Japanese is and will always be a niche audience. Again, there's nothing inherently wrong or bad about that, but it's the reason why amateur translations will always be amateur, because that sort of thing is hard to digest for wide audiences.

At the risk of sounding elitist, I'm going to be frank: If you want to be immersed in the language and feel like localizations can be off-putting because they aren't perfect translations, then learn Japanese. While I'm sure some translators do feel like "sharing the culture" as you described is their true motivation, I also feel that in some cases it's a way of saying "Hey look how great it is that I know Japanese and understand all these nuances and puns, I have to explain everything in the margins or else you won't appreciate me as a translator!" To me, it comes off as immature and show-offy sometimes, while other times I see it as a sign of laziness as described above. This goes back to what I said before: The true goal of a quality localization is for the audience to never realize it was written in another language in the first place. To that end, the translator essentially has to become invisible, giving up most of the recognition that amateurs crave - this is not inherently a good/preferable thing, but it is inherently more professional and deserving of respect. Whereas you might see localized terms and phrases as awkward because they don't perfectly convey the original words, I appreciate them as something that took effort and delicate fine-tuning to sound good in English (assuming they did a good job of localizing it, of course).

Remember that the point of this thread is to give advice to budding translators. If you are one, it is important to understand that these differences exist, and that you can aim for different levels as you gain experience. If translation is just a hobby for you and you want to invite others to bask in the cultural engrossment that is leaving "senpai" untranslated, then there is nothing wrong with staying at that level and keeping your small audience happy; we're on a forum dedicated to the amateur translation of porn comics, after all. But if you want to take it further and make some actual money, potentially turning it into at least a regular job, you shouldn't be impressed with yourself for understanding Japanese. Understanding localization is a similar yet distinct art that takes much more skill and patience, but is ultimately (in my experience, at least) much more rewarding.

I'm not particularly fond of food analogies, but I can give one about martial arts: Getting a black belt is an accomplishment unto itself, certainly, and represents hard work and a certain level of mastery and commitment. However, as any seasoned martial artist knows, getting the black belt is really just the beginning. There are higher echelons, more opportunities for advancement, and plenty more respect to be earned if you're willing to attain it, but just flaunting the black belt like you've reached the peak of the mountain is short-sighted. You have learned the basics, but now you must master them.

Professional translations are almost always 100% localized because as I have said, their intended audience is different, the purpose of their translations are pretty much always for the sake of commercializing something, and thus localization is very important. It does not however mean that it takes a higher "level" of skill (though obviously going one way or another may be easier for some, personally I find it easier to go all out localizing things, but the work will always feel "different" to people who have read the original, even when its still just as enjoyable to those who have never seen the original). Just because someone chooses to localize a translation does not immediately put the person onto a higher skill bracket as you seem to believe. Sure there are always the extremes where "localized" versions are pretty much pure ad-lib work and the fan "translated" work might as well not have been with the pages of notes you have to read, but in the end (at least for me) its all down to a matter preference. I know professional translators (J<->E, C<->E) who translate differently when they do "professional" work versus when they do something out of interest in their spare time. Why? for the exact reason I stated above, one is for the general populace, the other is for a niche audience. Translators who are looking to translate for a general populace will definitely gravitate towards a different style of translation (and tbh should be looking for a help on a professional translation forum and not here anyway) but again that does not inherently make them a "better" translator versus someone who translates for a niche audience. They're "better" commercial translators, but at what point was it decided that commercial work is always better, or that the larger the audience is better? The world would be a pretty bland place if no one cared about the niche (heck, one can argue we already have this problem in the field of gaming where you see 23874982734983 FPS games every year). If you're looking for commercial success, this isn't exactly the place to look.

Also if you want to go for a martial arts comparison, if anything the comparison would be more like learning a main stream martial arts form like judo, where the intent is more spiritual(some would argue sport like) versus traditional japanese jujitsu where the original styles were derived from an intent to kill the opponent on the battlefield. Sure if you wanted to practice whatever you learn in a public forum you'd have to go with judo... but does that inherently make it a "better" martial arts style?

It is important for people interested in translating to know that you can choose to localize things fully versus trying to retain as much of the original nuances resulting from cultural differences, but in the end (unless you plan on going into commercial work) I believe its still up to the individual translator's only preference/intent and should not be pigeon holed into a simple matter of "if you are more skilled you should translate in a matter such that people can't tell the source of the original material so that a greater audience can enjoy it".

Anyway, that's it for me. If anything I'm sure we can agree to disagree. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pretty sure Torabo mostly has the right of this, though both sides are making good points.

In certain contexts, professional translators do opt to use suffixes and leave certain terms untranslated - Persona 3 has one of the best English scripts among modern JRPGs, and there the localisation team chose to include the suffixes, and it worked. The audience understood it, and the localisation team counted on them doing so. Experience and professionalism means being able to adapt to the demands and preferences of one's audience rather than finding a rigid set of guidelines and sticking by them.