[X] My Assistant

A topic that cropped up elsewhere has me wondering about this, so I thought it deserved a dedicated thread.

Basically, the question is whether murder is universally offensive, or there are times when it may not be.

As Rad pointed out, different people may have different ideas of what it means for something to be offensive, not just what offends them. So, this is kind of a multi-layered question, I guess.

My stance has been pretty simple: if we take offensive to mean 'offends a person's sensibilities,' then I would say there are times when murder does not offend someone. Was anyone here offended that those SEALs killed Osama bin Laden? I'm sure he was offended, but it's just another lens to look at this through.

More directly, I was saying that a person who is terminally ill and in tremendous pain may welcome being killed to escape that pain, even if they didn't outright ask for it. This depends on the ideals of that person, I think.

I really am not sure what my position on this point is, but I think I'll give it a go.

There are at least three types of offenses possible from any act of murder: offense to the person committing it, offense to the person murdered, and offense to some basic principle.

Any violence that any person commits against any other person for any reason at all is an offense to the person it is committed on and to himself. If you murder in self-defense, is it reasonable? Maybe it is, depending on the circumstances. But, does it still harm you in some way? I believe it does since you have willfully acted to end another person's life and knowingly done so. Technically, what this means is that if you are unaware of having committed a murder and have no suspicion of it, then you have not committed an offense against yourself.

In all cases where you act to end someone's life, even if they desire it, you are still in an act of ending life of the person. Their lifeline has ended because you chose to end it. What this means, however, is if you are not really ending a "life" but something that is not-life, then you are not committing murder. This might be considered the case with abortion and people in a vegetable state (esp. severe brain trauma).

Finally, the murder may be considered an act of offense against a principle. Suppose you hold life to be sacred in all cases, no matter what. This means that anything that has the characteristic of "life" is by definition, sacred and inviolable. What this implies, of course, is that even as your body kills germs inside the body, you are acting as an offensive agent when your body kills germs, just by living. When you crush insects, you are also likewise acting as an agent of harm, thus offending the life principle.

I'm irresolute about this and not really sure about this to any extent at all. I may very well post differently tomorrow or in a week.

-Vakuen

This post has been edited by Vakuen: Jun 3 2011, 05:00

I think that both 'murder' and 'offensive' are too vaguely defined to consider reasoning about them sensible, and that words like 'offensive' should just be avoided everywhere where you want to make yourself clear.

It's like using unstable packages as a basis for other programs in Linux - you do it, and try to build on it, it'll start crashing so horribly and you'll spend time on figuring out whats wrong with the program.

Pick the words you accept and use carefully, and you'll avoid discussions like this one, or trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

nope

There are no moral absolutes.

You can't justify murder.
Many people think they have the right to kill, whether they have power or money, revenge, etc.

If somebody killed your loved one the common response is to seek revenge and kill the killer. Even if you do you gain nothing, you can gain self-satisfaction at the death of that person but thats about it (or you can take his belongings)
Still you cant justify it.

Anyway that's just my opinion. I still think life is meaningless. ( I'm not going to rant on that)

You can't justify murder.
Many people think they have the right to kill, whether they have power or money, revenge, etc.

If somebody killed your loved one the common response is to seek revenge and kill the killer. Even if you do you gain nothing, you can gain self-satisfaction at the death of that person but thats about it (or you can take his belongings)
Still you cant justify it.

Anyway that's just my opinion. I still think life is meaningless. ( I'm not going to rant on that)

This is not the discussion we're having.

This is not the discussion we're having.

Then what discussion are we having? Is murder offensive? Offensive to people?
If that, the answer varies by people. It varies because we all have different views.

To me murder is not offensive??

If its Self Defense. And evidence makes it clear it is so. Then it isn't murder at all.
Sadly, very few people get away with playing the "self-defense" card. They usually get prison time anyway.

However, the sentence may be insanely reduced that way. Depending on who you kill.


Say you kill another serial killer. Or a serial rapist or molester. You'll PROBABLY go to prison for that. But a sympathetic judge and jury is likely to occur. And I'd be shocked if you get more than 5 years for it.

This is coming from a person who lives in a state where executions are still carried out... in fact my state even rushes some executions without death row.

All I know is if someone murdered me when I didn't need murdering I would be very offended.

Most probably don't ever think they NEED a murdering. Be it true or not.

And then there's the insane.... who's sanest action is ironically admitting that they shouldn't be allowed to live.

Was anyone here offended that those SEALs killed Osama bin Laden? I'm sure he was offended, but it's just another lens to look at this through.

yes. yes i was offended. i was offended that it took them 10 years to get the job done when it should have been done 15 or 20 years ago. i was also offended that everyone seemed to forget about Saddam Hussein after 911. everyone made a big stink about the US invading Iraq without having captured Bin Laden first but they totally forgot that throughout the Clinton administration the UN kept trying to get their weapons inspectors into Iraq but Saddam kept giving them the run around even though he never had WMDs. he was just using Sun Tzu's strategy of putting up a strong front when you are really weak to hold the enemy at bay. he played a dangerous game and he lost.

Murdering and Killing are two completely different things.

Aye... that's a conflict of interest in the Old Testament as well. One of the ten commandments is often referred to as "Do not Kill"

The Old word used for "kill" could be translated to both "kill" or "murder". This complicates things more than you might think.

Because almost every human being is guilty of killing... while not as many are guilty of murder.


In case you forgot... when you swat a mosquito. You killed it. When you step on a freshly planted tree... you killed it.

When you wash your hands with soap... you killed... A LOT of things that you cannot see.


And of course... if you translate the commandment to make killing a sin... you remove your ability to defend your life, and must accept death over sinning to protect yourself.

If murder is considered a sin instead, than believers can still technically take a life to preserve their own.

Ok this first thing that needs to be broached is what term and context is the word "murder" being used?

If you are discussing the termination of life due to terminal illness that is something that can only be determined by the person with the illness. That's been made self evident in the recent past news scene with Kovorkien and that other lady who was selling homemade suicide kits over the web.

Now if you are talking the forced termination of life due to violence by one person against another than it could and should be viewed as morally wrong. As a martial arts practitioner I try my hardest to avoid a fight at all costs but at times you are unable to side step that sort of thing because some people are looking for violence and won't be satisfied with anything less. In such circumstances I enter into a dispute with the intention of ending in the fastest amount of time possible regardless of the consequences of my actions. Hence the fact that I have been arrested on more than one occasion for aggravated assault.

I suppose what it all boils down to is the individuals viewpoint on the word and the way it is being used to describe a given situation

I personally find murder to be absolutely hilarious.

I personally find murder to be absolutely hilarious.

If you are talking about someones dead corpse or cold blooded murder to be funny, you are a sick fucking person. Now if you are like me and like some dark humor every once in a while that's fine, the satire of bad things can be good sometimes.

Like this Image I think it's kinda funny but that's just me.