[X] My Assistant

Quick Q, can anyone explain to me what Tenboro means in the patch notes when he says things like "resist (9,15)" That range represents the stats a piece of gear can have for resist, but obviously 9 isn't the base resist. Is it the stat at a certain level, or a multiplier or what?

And we don't know. You can try PM'ing Tenboro and seeing if he'd be willing to explain it for you. It would certainly help.

Actually, we do know. The "resist (9,15)" refers to the base resist value. There's a scaling factor for each stat that converts that number to what we call the "base" value, namely what the equipment would have at level 0. Most of those scaling factors are slightly off from "round" numbers by varying amounts, simply to give the resulting figures a bit of variety. I don't think we have a complete list of what they are, but it wouldn't be that hard to figure them out. (No, I'm not going to do it...)

(No, I'm not going to do it...)

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif)

Give me data and I will do it, been working on it all day, whats throwing me off is outliers, most data falls in the range I have calculated so far.

Average Phase Robe of the Cheetah

Average Phase Robe of the Cheetah
Level: 216 -> 0
Attack Accuracy Bonus: 3.2
Magic Accuracy Bonus: 1.99
Physical Absorption: 0.29
Physical Mitigation: 1.66
Magical Absorption: 0.53
Magical Mitigation: 1.21
Evade Chance: 3.5
DEX: 0.7
AGI: 2.72
INT: 0.7
WIS: 0.7

Base AGI = 2.72

Superior Silk Cap of the Raccoon

Level: 302 -> 0
Attack Accuracy Bonus: 3.2
Physical Absorption: 0.46
Physical Mitigation: 1.25
Magical Absorption: 0.53
Magical Mitigation: 1.21
Evade Chance: 2.25
Burden: 2.52
DEX: 2.22
AGI: 0.5

Base Dex 2.22

Average Phase Robe of the Cheetah

Average Phase Robe of the Cheetah
Level: 216 -> 0
Attack Accuracy Bonus: 3.2
Magic Accuracy Bonus: 1.99
Physical Absorption: 0.29
Physical Mitigation: 1.66
Magical Absorption: 0.53
Magical Mitigation: 1.21
Evade Chance: 3.5
DEX: 0.7
AGI: 2.72
INT: 0.7
WIS: 0.7

Base AGI = 2.72

Meh, that kind of screws everything up. 4 possibilites:

1. Robe slot just happens to break the mold.
2. All other values could be .10 higher, except feet which would be .20 higher than what I have listed.
3. Phase has higher maximum PABs than Gossamer/Silk.
4. Different PABs have different maximums (I sure fucking hope not. Seems the least likely as well)

Possibility 5:

Actually there's no reason that there's a 0.3 or 0.2 gradual step for different parts.
There may be uneven steps for body and leg part.

Personally i would agree with possibility 2, but i think we should just treat the current data as possible maximum before any new thing's coming out.

I'm not sure what the problem is here. Don't forget, Cheetah gear has an AGI bonus.

I'm not sure what the problem is here. Don't forget, Cheetah gear has an AGI bonus.

No, the problem is that it breaks (or re-breaks I guess), the nice pattern we had. 2.6/2.4/2.2/2.0/1.8. First 4 confirmed, last 1 assumed.

The fact that it's Phase + a different PAB than INT, which we've been focusing on, raises various questions, which I listed.

This post has been edited by Conquest101: Apr 14 2011, 17:10

In that case, you should consider possibility 4a: All PABs have the same ranges for un-suffixed gear, but the maximum boost from different suffixes may vary.

I don't think it's possible to have different maximum PAB for different suffixs.
If so, we should observe the maximum PABs for the same suffix (like cheetah for example), but it seems we can get maximum PABs from different suffixs: Caps from raccoon, robe from cheetah,shoes from owl
It may be possible, but the variety of equipments makes it unlikely to happen

Instead, consider the possibility that phase and gossamer have different maximum PABs

I have been able to record a even pattern for the base value of PABs for non-suffixed equipments for gossamer

Cap 1.01
Robe 1.11
Glove 0.81
Pant 1.01
Shoe 0.71

We may deduce a pattern from these data.

Now for phases, which i don't have much data

Cap 1.21
Robe 1.41
Glove 0.91
Pant 1.31
Shoe 0.81

Although the data's really preliminary, it seems that for phases they have better PABs than those of gossamers.
My guess will be wrong if there's any gossamer equipments with the numbers conparable to that of phases.

Now it would make sense for conquest's idea of 2.6/2.4/2.2/2.0/1.8.
For phases it would be like 2.8/2.6/2.4/2.2/2.0

This post has been edited by varst: Apr 14 2011, 17:57

Actually, forget what I just said. This is probably the case:

4. Different PABs have different maximums (I sure fucking hope not. Seems the least likely as well)

The 0.5.0 release notes even explicitly state (amongst other things) that Phase AGI has a different range from Gossamer INT/WIS:

-- Cloth Silk: increased AGI/DEX primary stat bonus from (0,10) to (1,10); no longer drops with +resist
-- Cloth Gossamer: removed AGI primary stat bonus; increased INT/WIS primary stat bonus from (0,10) to (1,10); no longer drops with +resist
-- Cloth Phase: added DEX primary stat bonus; increased AGI primary stat bonus from (1,10) to (2,12); can now drop in Cheetah, Racoon, Fox and Owl variants; no longer drops with +resist

The different PABs can clearly be tweaked independently, so we can't asume that they all have the same ranges for any equipment type. Also, we can't expect stats that aren't "native" to a certain type of equipment to have the same maximum values as those that are. (Gossamer DEX, for example.)

Edit: Never mind that last bit, I was talking bollocks. You can't get Raccoon Gossamer, or any other cloth with bonuses to PABs that it doesn't normally have.

Than there's the question of how the scaling to different slots works. A quick comparison of Head and Body pieces shows that the base INT values have the same step size, yet Body has a greater range. That implies that the values are being multiplied by a different factor for each slot, and they get rounded to whole numbers later on. (Probably after adding any suffix bonuses, but who knows?) If that's the case, some stats may not give a pattern of equal sized steps between slots.

I think, if you want to do this properly, you need to look at every stat (with the possible exception of those whose ranges we know are the same), and get maximum values with and without suffixes for each one.

This post has been edited by Sayo Aisaka: Apr 14 2011, 23:37

I agree on the point that phase have different range from gossamer.
But what Tenboro have said doesn't necessarily mean that different PABs have been set to different number.
It's a reasonable assumption as long as we don't observe some PABs have higher value than other PABs for all equipment parts.
Though this should probably not be applied to the case of phase drops; they have such a low drop rate that makes collections statistically unreliable

Your second point is interesting though.
My thoughts

The formula for calculating from raw values to base equipment value may look like this

base equipment value =((raw value) (body factor) + (bonus factor))/(scaling factor)

where
raw value = something given by Tenboro
body factor = for armor only, a multiplication factor for different body parts. Goes like (1.0, 1.2, 0.9, 1.1, 0.8)
bonus factor = bonus from suffix
scaling factor = scale to what we get for base value

The verification for this formula should be useful, because we may possibly deduce some of the maximums from this.
I would like to test my idea on Willow staff first, especially on depreciating prof., since i don't understand how i can get 13.77 from the raw value of 30.
And i may need collection and verification on data.
Should i continue in this thread or open another one? At chat forum or at discussion forum?

This post has been edited by varst: Apr 14 2011, 21:45

I agree on the point that phase have different range from gossamer.
But what Tenboro have said doesn't necessarily mean that different PABs have been set to different number.
It's a reasonable assumption as long as we don't observe some PABs have higher value than other PABs for all equipment parts.
Though this should probably not be applied to the case of phase drops; they have such a low drop rate that makes collections statistically unreliable

Your second point is interesting though.
My thoughts

The formula for calculating from raw values to base equipment value may look like this

base equipment value =((raw value) (body factor) + (bonus factor))/(scaling factor)

where
raw value = something given by Tenboro
body factor = for armor only, a multiplication factor for different body parts. Goes like (1.0, 1.2, 0.9, 1.1, 0.8)
bonus factor = bonus from suffix
scaling factor = scale to what we get for base value

The verification for this formula should be useful, because we may possibly deduce some of the maximums from this.
I would like to test my idea on Willow staff first, especially on depreciating prof., since i don't understand how i can get 13.77 from the raw value of 30.
And i may need collection and verification on data.
Should i continue in this thread or open another one? At chat forum or at discussion forum?

Thats what I have been working off of. Been using leather/chain an the base values he has given us because of the large data set.

Thats what I have been working off of. Been using leather/chain an the base values he has given us because of the large data set.

How's your progress right now?
For me it's more plausible to deal with staffs first. Leathers, cotton and chain may have more data, but most likely they are using the same formula.
My target is to see the raw value of MDM for destruction staffs.

Maybe i should work with redwood staff first?

This post has been edited by varst: Apr 14 2011, 22:10

Weapons look to be much easier then armor from what I found,

So far I have found this

Longsword: increased +STR from (0,14) to (3,20); increased +DEX from (0,10) to (3,20); increased Bleed damage from (10,20) to (15,25)

Longsword base roll is from (3,20). Which translate to 0.3 base to 2.0 base. This part was simple and I haven't found any longsword out of this range.

The problems start to develop when I try to find a number that gets added to both the min and the max for PAB (I haven't looked at other things like ADM yet). I have found a few Longswords with a 2.91 bonus to STR. Which would make me want to think that the max for Ox is 3.0. The lowest value that I have seen is 0.91. Which makes the Current range for the base rolls to be (9,30), which is (+6,+10) from base. So maybe there is more then one roll for each piece of equipment, all done before the scalar effect. Something like [(Equipment Range) + (Suffix Modifier Range) + (Slot Modifier)]/scalar.

An example that fits is the current Gossamer PABs that we have found. The range Tenboro gave us is (1,10) which can be found in the patch notes. Assuming that the Head slot is the base and that the rest are modified around that I calculated these values with what we have now.

(Only using high values since I don't have lows to work with)
Body: [(10)+(14)+(2)]/10= 2.6
Leg: [(10)+(13)+(1)]/10= 2.4
Head: [(10)+(12)+(0)]/(10)= 2.2
Hand: [(10)+(11)+(-1)]/(10)= 2.0
Feet: [(10)+(10)+(-2)]/(10)= 1.8

For Phase I predict (working off of base being (2,12))
Body: [(12)+(14)+(2)]/10= 2.8
Leg: [(12)+(13)+(1)]/10= 2.6
Head: [(12)+(12)+(0)]/(10)= 2.4
Hand: [(12)+(11)+(-1)]/(10)= 2.2
Feet: [(12)+(10)+(-2)]/(10)= 2.0

Possibly that it would be the same Suffix Modifier across all slots and that the slot modifier is stronger.

Just like you said earlier Varst my calculated values match your predicted.

The scalars I have for other stats to get from the base to the range is as follows.
Absorption: 41
Mitigation: 9
Resist (possibly other evasions): 3
Stats: 10
Base * Scalar = Range

This works great on helms so far, and the only stat it seems to fail at is phy/mag mitigation, which can lean towards the low end with many suffix's. So I think some suffix's can have a negative or positive effect on more then just a single stat.

This post has been edited by skillchip: Apr 15 2011, 01:43

Sayo may have actually cleared it up with that post, at least in regards to why that cheetah phase robe breaks the mold.
Tenboro states that he increases the AGI range on phase to (2,12) versus the (x,10) everything else seems to still be at.

I'm going to continue with my assumption that the other PABs have the same maximum and that Phase/Gossamer have the same maximums EXCEPT for AGI until we can prove otherwise.

While I agree that non-suffixed Phase might have higher PAB ranges than non-suffixed Gossamer, I say might, because Phase seems to drop with higher values more often, so it might be that Gossamer has the same maximum, but we just haven't seen it yet. I'm going to work on that later this week. I have a good deal of equipment to pull from in that regard.

This post has been edited by Conquest101: Apr 15 2011, 03:47

I would say that the factor for slots most likely will be a multiplication factor instead of addition factor for prof. and EABs.
Considering prof., The current maximum data we have is 6.12, 7.34, 5.51, 6.73, 4.9
Notice that there's a 1.2 factor for each step of different slots.

If i would say, there may be different rules governing those of prof. and those of MDM.
But the slot factor would not be the priority for me, as it means i need some 5 times of data to verify that the equation is true

Average Phase Robe of the Fox

Average Phase Robe of the Fox
Level: 11 -> 0
Attack Accuracy Bonus: 4.8
Magic Accuracy Bonus: 1.99
Physical Absorption: 0.29
Physical Mitigation: 0.52
Magical Absorption: 0.4
Magical Mitigation: 1.71
Evade Chance: 3.25
DEX: 0.2
AGI: 1.2
INT: 2.7
WIS: 0.7

Base INT = 2.7, 25.24 @300

Base evade for Phase gloves is 3.5

Fine Phase Gloves of Fenrir << It also has max EDB! but it's fenrir, so... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

Max base PAB for Phase gloves (and probably for silks / gossamer too) is probably 1 ... Like WIS in this gloves for example...


PS. And Katana max bleed chance is not 25%!!!11! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by buktore: Apr 15 2011, 11:26