[X] My Assistant

Well, it doesn't matter if you bid more than once, as the information available to you doesn't change.
It equals to "Recall last mail and send another one", as they only become effective at the end of auction.
So for the auctioneer, it is ok to set up a "One mail per player, recall OK" rule.

ah, yep, you will read only after timer reaches zero. ok.

Assumption: Each player knows his upper limit price. (Note as Xa,Ya)

Let's consider the cases:

Standard vs Standard (Skipped)
Vickrey vs Vickrey (Proved, going to upper limit directly is best)

Standard(X) vs Vickrey (Y)
X doesn't know Y but Y know X.
For X:
If I am worried about Y>X, I may:
1. Put a Vickrey my self (Back to Vickrey vs Vickrey)
2. Wait for the last chance to bid as standard winner. (If Xa>Y>X, doesn't work if Y>>Xa)
So X always has a chance to reach maximum value.

For Y:
If I want to utilize the information and snipe standard bidder, I may:
1. Bid just a little bit higher. (Countered by last chance & other Vickrey)
2. Bid super high price. (Strong penalty if another Vickrey bidder use the same strategy but bid less)
3. ……I don't know how to utilize the information in other ways.
If the information isn't useful, it goes back to Vickrey vs Vickrey again.

Ok I found a problem in my rules. I shouldn't announce the number of Vickrey bidders.
So the vulnerability lies within assumption:
Does everyone know how much they are willing to pay?

Ok I found a problem in my rules. I shouldn't announce the number of Vickrey bidders.

personally i thought it was a sign of transparency to write it. and yep, that much you wrote is clear. but seems to me that a Vickrey bidder will also have the upper hand, right?

TBH i am not sure what i think about this Vickrey. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

personally i thought it was a sign of transparency to write it. and yep, that much you wrote is clear. but seems to me that a Vickrey bidder will also have the upper hand, right?

Well, I don't know if you guys remember Super's number game.
Some choose to post their numbers while winners always seal and send at the last minute.

Though rules are different, one thing for sure is: the less you go public, the more advantageous you are.
For Standard(X) vs Vickrey (Y), Y>X is for sure.
My rule is made for when n->∞, Y->X, Y≈X

[en.wikipedia.org] Vickrey auction from Wikipedia

A Vickrey auction is a type of sealed-bid auction. Bidders submit written bids without knowing the bid of the other people in the auction. The highest bidder wins but the price paid is the second-highest bid.

There's another way to perform Vickrey auction to enforce transparency:
We have a public key and a private key generated by 3rd party.
Everyone uses public key to encode their bids, and post on forum.
At the end of auction, private key is announced and bids are available to decode for anyone.

This post has been edited by ArbiterErii: Aug 26 2017, 18:06

I got an issue with that way of proxy bidding: how do you know what are the 1st and 2nd highest bids when there can be several proxy bids? It could be easu to pretend that someone proxy bidded right below you so that you pay full price, and there'd be no way to verify this.

personally i thought it was a sign of transparency to write it. and yep, that much you wrote is clear. but seems to me that a Vickrey bidder will also have the upper hand, right?

I would say you can't mix the two styles for the same item. So if I sell my rapier v-style, everyone needs to bid v-style. And thus no sniping possible. Seller gets maybe a slight lower amount, because no last minute bid wars can occur.

food for your thoughts, people: straight from ArbiterErii's auction, a Vickrey one with custom rules:
i don't know too much about it, but it's not the first time Vickrey is used. what are your opinions?

This is very close to how things work with my auctions, when both people bidding are proxy bidding: if A proxy bids 1.5m and B proxy bids 1m, the end price is 1m + [minimum bid increment] = 1050k.

There's another way to perform Vickrey auction to enforce transparency:
We have a public key and a private key generated by 3rd party.
Everyone uses public key to encode their bids, and post on forum.
At the end of auction, private key is announced and bids are available to decode for anyone.

I was considering something like this back when I was setting up proxy bidding: every time a proxy bid is submitted, encode it, and put the text somewhere where it can't be taken back or erased (such as with a post edit), and then release the key at the end so people can decrypt them. (But I felt like it would be too much work for something very few would understand or check)

I would say you can't mix the two styles for the same item. So if I sell my rapier v-style, everyone needs to bid v-style. And thus no sniping possible. Seller gets maybe a slight lower amount, because no last minute bid wars can occur.

Mixing standard post bidding and proxy/Vickrey bidding is quite possible for the same item; it would be just like my auctions without the minimum bid increment.

food for your thoughts, people: straight from ArbiterErii's auction, a Vickrey one with custom rules:
i don't know too much about it, but it's not the first time Vickrey is used. what are your opinions?

I like the idea that a bidder's identity can be kept private.
This is exactly as it is in real life high level auctions, and I appreciate seeing it here.

Does it invite the possibility of shill bidding and other less than ethical actions?
Yes.

But we can rely on "who" is running the auction.
I have full trust in ArbiterErii of running a top of the line and pure auction.

There are others "none" of us would trust, but we would already know to stay clear.

(I would've bid on ArbiterErii's auction, but I've decided to work on a full charged set and dial up Duality to IX.)

I like the idea that a bidder's identity can be kept private.
This is exactly as it is in real life high level auctions, and I appreciate seeing it here.

But only the identity of losing bids can be kept secret. The identity of the winner will always be exposed by the equipment page.

But only the identity of losing bids can be kept secret. The identity of the winner will always be exposed by the equipment page.

All bids should be made public after the auction's end.
No "public" HV auction should have private undisclosed bids since price fixing has already been done in the past and the price paid is from the second highest bid (which would remain private in this case).
Transparency >>> privacy.

This post has been edited by Sapo84: Aug 27 2017, 04:28

Just got SPARKED on Dark Skies. Now that's just insulting.

But only the identity of losing bids can be kept secret. The identity of the winner will always be exposed by the equipment page.

All bids should be made public after the auction's end.
No "public" HV auction should have private undisclosed bids since price fixing has already been done in the past and the price paid is from the second highest bid (which would remain private in this case).
Transparency >>> privacy.

OK.. Both of these comments sound perfectly legit to me.
I have the disadvantage of not being here long enough to know a lot of prior history.
Personally, I respect the fact that both sigo8 and Sapo84 have been around for quite a while.

I'm not married to my opinion of privacy in auctions. That opinion can change directions on a dime.
Privacy would be nice if the overall integrity of our members can allow it.
If it can't, then that should be part of the final weight if any decisions are made on future auctions.

The way is one.

All bids of course have to be private until the end of the auction.
But at the end ALL of them should be revealed.
In that way no one can say that the revealed bid isn't the one they sent.
And no "opponent" can say that the auctioneer gave the item to the wrong person.

Meh...I'm of the opinion of just letting the auctioneers run their auctions however they want.

As for me as a bidder, I'd vastly prefer the standard way where the only decision I have to make is "do I want to spend (next valid bid) amount on X item?".

No mind games, no slick tricks, less brain power needed.

Results of 503 Shrined Precursor Artifacts

Legend:
Xtal = 1000 crystals of (unrecorded) type
Ed = energy drink
Le = last elixer
Hath = 2 hath
Str = strength
Dex = dexterity
Agi = agility
End = endurance
Int = intelligence
Wis = wisdom

Start: lvl350 str4 dex5 agi6 end6 int9 wis3

5 results per line:

1) xtal, ed, le, xtal, str
2) wis, xtal, ed, ed, wis
3) str, xtal, end, le, agi
4) xtal, int, int, ed, xtal
5) int, dex, dex, xtal, xtal
6) xtal, dex, ed, agi, int
7) xtal, hath, xtal, int, xtal
8) ed, hath, hath, xtal, ed
9) le, dex, wis, le, ed
10) agi, int, agi, hath, hath
11) wis, ed, wis, str, le
12) le, ed, le, xtal, wis
13) agi, ed, xtal, end, le
14) wis, hath, end, le, le
15) dex, agi, xtal, le, le
16) xtal, xtal, xtal, agi, int
17) dex, xtal, le, ed, agi
18) hath, xtal, wis, le, wis
19) le, dex, xtal, xtal, hath
20) xtal, xtal, xtal, wis, xtal

21) ed, str, xtal, hath, le
22) ed, int, dex, str, end
23) int, ed, hath, end, hath
24) xtal, xtal, ed, xtal, wis
25) le, wis, le, agi, ed
26) le, xtal, ed, hath, ed
27) xtal, xtal, xtal, xtal, ed
28) le, ed, hath, xtal, agi
29) int, le, xtal, wis, xtal
30) xtal, xtal, ed, ed, xtal
31) xtal, le, xtal, dex, end
32) str, dex, hath, wis, end
33) ed, hath, ed, xtal, end
34) xtal, end, int, str, xtal
35) xtal, agi, le, wis, int
36) xtal, xtal, agi, agi, le
37) agi, xtal, xtal, ed, le
38) end, dex, end, hath, int
39) ed, wis, xtal, dex, hath
40) str, end, hath, ed, hath

41) dex, str, xtal, xtal, xtal
42) hath, dex, str, xtal, le
43) xtal, xtal, hath, end, dex
44) hath, xtal, hath, hath, hath
45) xtal, xtal, xtal, str, hath
46) ed, agi, xtal, xtal, xtal
47) dex, ed, wis, str, agi
48) xtal, le, ed, ed, agi
49) ed, ed, dex, hath, xtal
50) xtal, xtal, ed, le, hath
51) le, xtal, str, hath, dex
52) hath, xtal, le, le, le
53) le, hath, int, le, hath
54) ed, xtal, wis, le, le
55) xtal, le, le, le, ed
56) le, xtal, str, le, ed
57) hath, le, le, wis, int
58) ed, int, ed, hath, xtal
59) xtal, hath, ed, le, hath
60) str, ed, xtal, end, xtal

61) ed, le, hath, xtal, xtal
62) ed, hath, str, xtal, le
63) wis, le, xtal, int, int
64) ed, hath, hath, xtal, xtal
65) hath, xtal, wis, dex, ed
66) xtal, xtal, le, xtal, ed
67) xtal, int, le, ed, xtal
68) ed, str, le, wis, hath
69) le, agi, hath, xtal, end
70) ed, le, xtal, wis, ed
71) xtal, ed, ed, xtal, xtal
72) ed, le, end, agi, xtal
73) xtal, ed, xtal, xtal, ed
74) end, ed, dex, ed, le
75) le, ed, str, xtal, ed
76) ed, xtal, xtal, xtal, xtal
77) ed, wis, xtal, xtal, str
78) xtal, hath, xtal, xtal, le
79) ed, hath, xtal, hath, int
80) end, xtal, le, xtal, le

81) ed, str, ed, ed, xtal
82) ed, xtal, xtal, xtal, xtal
83) xtal, agi, le, le, ed
84) dex, xtal, hath, le, ed
85) le, ed, hath, dex, le
86) dex, le, xtal, xtal, xtal
87) xtal, xtal, hath, xtal, xtal
88) xtal, hath, xtal, xtal, hath
89) hath, xtal, xtal, hath, str
90) dex, xtal, xtal, xtal, le
91) ed, hath, hath, xtal, xtal
92) le, xtal, agi, ed, hath
93) hath, xtal, ed, hath, end
94) ed, xtal, agi, ed, hath
95) wis, ed, xtal, str, xtal
96) hath, xtal, xtal, xtal, xtal
97) hath, hath, le, xtal, xtal
98) hath, ed, xtal, ed, le
99) str, int, hath, le, hath
100) le, end, le, le, wis

101) xtal, ed, xtal

End: lvl350 str27 dex29 agi28 end26 int30 wis29

Just my little data contribution to help the smart cookies out there to better plot the PA pabs-received drop off curve (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Results of 503 Shrined Precursor Artifacts

Start: lvl350 str4 dex5 agi6 end6 int9 wis3

End: lvl350 str27 dex29 agi28 end26 int30 wis29

Just my little data contribution to help the smart cookies out there to better plot the PA pabs-received drop off curve (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

thank you for your contribution. btw, ratios for a full-PAB character have already been disclosed, and are roughly 1:1:1:2:0 -> ED:LE:Hath:crystals:PABs.

now, missing only the starting point for PABs. but i'm afraid it'll also depend on the level of the user, so it may be not-so-easy to discover. let's hope your level is high enough...

I have full trust in ArbiterErii of running a top of the line and pure auction.

this is a whole other matter. i don't have any reason to doubt him and i started this hoping that it would help him and other auctioneers. as for other "who"s, well... if you're one of those and still opt for a possibly-not-so-transparent-in-the-wrong-hands way of auction, who am i to spoil your fun?

But only the identity of losing bids can be kept secret. The identity of the winner will always be exposed by the equipment page.

that's a given. should them, though?

All bids should be made public after the auction's end.
No "public" HV auction should have private undisclosed bids since price fixing has already been done in the past and the price paid is from the second highest bid (which would remain private in this case).
Transparency >>> privacy.

The way is one.

All bids of course have to be private until the end of the auction.
But at the end ALL of them should be revealed.
In that way no one can say that the revealed bid isn't the one they sent.
And no "opponent" can say that the auctioneer gave the item to the wrong person.

these seem good points to me. especially the "Transparency >>> privacy" one, and particularly for a starting auctioneer.
probably they should add a line like "by bidding here, you agree with the fact that i may or may not disclose your bids at the end"?

also, to prevent Vickrey's exploits on hybrid auctions: i really like this options "For Standard winner, I will send a PM/MM notification and he has a last chance to bid against Vickrey winner (+5%)"

Meh...I'm of the opinion of just letting the auctioneers run their auctions however they want.

As for me as a bidder, I'd vastly prefer the standard way where the only decision I have to make is "do I want to spend (next valid bid) amount on X item?".

No mind games, no slick tricks, less brain power needed.

of course auctioneers can pick their favourite way (even if they should think a bit beforehand). and if bidders like an item, they should make their brain work a bit if they want to win them

Spoiler text - Highlight to read...

yes, i know this could backfire me as well, since i also like brainless auctions (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

thank you for your contribution. btw, ratios for a full-PAB character have already been disclosed, and are roughly 1:1:1:2:0 -> ED:LE:Hath:crystals:PABs.

now, missing only the starting point for PABs. but i'm afraid it'll also depend on the level of the user, so it may be not-so-easy to discover. let's hope your level is high enough...

Yeah, I wasn't sure on the best way to present this data, so I decided on posting the raw data. PC users can easily copy/paste and find/replace my syntax with whatever they choose. I think the main thing we're still missing is the equation for the PAB drop rate.
Even looking at my data without a graph, it's easy to see a sharp decline in pab drops part way through the 300 set, so I'm hoping that this data will be enough to plot out a rough curve that can be extrapolated...

Maybe have the X axis as the number of pabs currently owned, and the Y axis as the number of PAs taken to unlock the next pab?


Btw, I thought the drop ratios for full-pab were 20:15:20:45:0 -> ED:LE:Hath:crystals:PABs ? (Source: The Wiki)

Yeah, I wasn't sure on the best way to present this data, so I decided on posting the raw data. PC users can easily copy/paste and find/replace my syntax with whatever they choose. I think the main thing we're still missing is the equation for the PAB drop rate.
Even looking at my data without a graph, it's easy to see a sharp decline in pab drops part way through the 300 set, so I'm hoping that this data will be enough to plot out a rough curve that can be extrapolated...

Maybe have the X axis as the number of pabs currently owned, and the Y axis as the number of PAs taken to unlock the next pab?

i bet it's more like: X = player's level; Y = something that puts in relation the number of PABs with the maximum amount of PABs (the latter of which discretely depending on player's level); Z = f(X,Y) = PABs chance.
the number of needed PAs could be somehow deducted by Z.

Btw, I thought the drop ratios for full-pab were 20:15:20:45:0 -> ED:LE:Hath:crystals:PABs ? (Source: The Wiki)

sssss and others showed that when number of PABs is maxed, ratios tend to be 1:1:1:2. don't know whether datas on wiki were true (and now obsolete) or there has always been a certain amount of uncertainty, but this seems to be the answer now...