[X] My Assistant

speaking of which, you just made me realize one thing:

this is my usual DW set, with which i have 83% Parry: mainhand Rapier / offhand Waki

replace the Rapier with this random Axe (first piece without Parry i found) and it goes down to 77%

replace the Rapier with my previous Waki and Parry goes up to 85.9%

i thought quite worse. it seems the Parry stat on mainhand weapon is quite expendable if offhand Parry is high enough and if you have to assemble a specific build for reasons

Parry is never high enough because dw has too low firepower (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Parry is never high enough because dw has too low firepower (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I think that the biggest disadvantage with DW (and 2H) compared to 1H is the inability to use the permanent Spirit Stance. I think that if DW had the same ability, it would be much more useful. With high parry off hand weapon even the lack of shield is just a minor disadvantage. I could easily play arenas on PFUDOR with my DW set, the problem was high parry rate of monsters and in the end the damage output wasn't much higher because of the Spirit Stance getting exhausted too fast.

Waiting for the next patch, maybe other melee styles will work again (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

I think that the biggest disadvantage with DW (and 2H) compared to 1H is the inability to use the permanent Spirit Stance. I think that if DW had the same ability, it would be much more useful. With high parry off hand weapon even the lack of shield is just a minor disadvantage. I could easily play arenas on PFUDOR with my DW set, the problem was high parry rate of monsters and in the end the damage output wasn't much higher because of the Spirit Stance getting exhausted too fast.

Waiting for the next patch, maybe other melee styles will work again (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

Maybe you should try full overpower, if only I'd have some weapons with high OP to try (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Anyway, pfudor with dw light is easily playable at least in everything except deep pfudorfest (400+)
As for the dw heavy I still play sometimes, it works perfectly in Iwbth for now, for pfudor there are too many magic full chaosed monsters even with full warding stuff (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

This post has been edited by ppp82p: May 22 2016, 22:26

Now that I thought more about it, I tried few more combinations to see "stuff"
Used my Shade set since very few still use Power with DW (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Forge of offhand in parentheses.

Shortsword of Slaughter + Rapier of the Nimble (33 acc 33 parry) -> 6525 adb 88% offhand 77.7% parry

Shortsword of Slaughter + Rapier of Slaughter (5 acc 5 parry) -> 6806 adb 87% offhand 65.4% parry

Rapier of Slaughter + Shortsword of Slaughter (5 acc 8 parry) -> 6749 adb 90% offhand 65.2% parry

And, just to comprehend everything:

Axe of Slaughter + Rapier of Slaughter (5 acc 5 parry) -> 7080 adb 87% offhand 54.1% parry

I don't have a correctly leveled waki of nimble to see, but with a random mag waki as offhand, my adb is 5900 (low).
Still, for defense Rapier of Slaughter + Waki of Nimble has max parry, but with a consistent loss in firepower.

And axe isn't worth it.
You lose a lot of parry (7-11% difference, 7 with nimble rapier 11 with slaughter rapier offhand) for 200 adb.
A shortsword is still better.

I wouldn't be so quicl to discard the axe + rapier idea. I'm not saying it's best, but rather that it could be working under the correct conditions.

Looking at Logii's gear, he has a heavily forged Peerless Nimble rapier, so it doesn't get any better than this. Taking his level into consideration, I'd expect his parry to be >70% which doesn't sound too bad. Also, level scaling tends to be a players best friend, so even without additional forging his parry will continue to grow.

On the other hand, people might be underestimating the effect of a couple hundred additional ADB. Not only are your standard & critical hits more powerful, you also get some bonus damage for your void strike. Heartseeker further increases the difference, and BW benefits from that as well. In case you forge Damage beyond lvl 5, the axe's higher base dmg will yield even better results. Things might add up rather quickly...

Parry is never high enough because dw has too low firepower (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

you're basically saying Rapier of Nimble + Waki of Nimble is one of the best possible builds

I think that the biggest disadvantage with DW (and 2H) compared to 1H is the inability to use the permanent Spirit Stance. I think that if DW had the same ability, it would be much more useful. With high parry off hand weapon even the lack of shield is just a minor disadvantage. I could easily play arenas on PFUDOR with my DW set, the problem was high parry rate of monsters and in the end the damage output wasn't much higher because of the Spirit Stance getting exhausted too fast.

yep. every now and then i suggested to add 1/2% OC gain for every parried hit while on DW build. who knows if Tenboro actually read it *shrugs*

Looking at Logii's gear, he has a heavily forged Peerless Nimble rapier, so it doesn't get any better than this. Taking his level into consideration, I'd expect his parry to be >70% which doesn't sound too bad.

mind you, i passed that threshold a while ago so i may be wrong, but 70% Parry shouldn't be anything spectacular at our levels...

On the other hand, people might be underestimating the effect of a couple hundred additional ADB. Not only are your standard & critical hits more powerful, you also get some bonus damage for your void strike. Heartseeker further increases the difference, and BW benefits from that as well. In case you forge Damage beyond lvl 5, the axe's higher base dmg will yield even better results. Things might add up rather quickly...

i was wondering the same thing. also, DW has a high Crit chance (>50%), which should really be exploited. if you can get Fatality 10 on your weapons and a full Savage set you may bring your multiplier around +84~85%. throw in Heartseeker effect and you're around 60%/+100% situation while on-combat - which basically means 2 hits out of 3 deal double damage. while it's true elemental strikes don't crit, a 2x main strike is surely to be considered. in such a situation i guess a few ADB aren't really that big of a matter...

Looking at Logii's gear, he has a heavily forged Peerless Nimble rapier, so it doesn't get any better than this. Taking his level into consideration, I'd expect his parry to be >70% which doesn't sound too bad.

70% parry it's a bit low.
I reach it (70,5%) with Shade set and Axe + Rapier of Nimble forged to Lv 33, anyway.
Logii should be able to get even to 75% if he forges to lv 50 his peerless.

But still, he can get to 83-84% with an "unforged" (only lv5 forge) shortsword (with nice parry roll of course) paired with his rapier (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif).
Trading 200-250 adb for 8-9 parry isn't bad.

It's not like the transition from Shortsword of Slaughter+Rapier of Nimble to Rapier of Slaughter+Waki of Nimble, where you trade 500+ adb for the same amount of parry.

This post has been edited by ppp82p: May 23 2016, 02:27

70% parry it's a bit low.
I reach it (70,5%) with Shade set and Axe + Rapier of Nimble forged to Lv 33, anyway.
Logii should be able to get even to 75% if he forges to lv 50 his peerless.

But still, he can get to 83-84% with an "unforged" shortsword (with nice parry roll of course) paired with his rapier (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif).
Trading 200-250 adb for 8-9 parry isn't bad.

It's not like the transition from Shortsword Slaughter+Rapier of Nimble to Rapier Slaughter + Waki of Nimble, where you trade 500+ adb for the same amount (or less) of parry.

True, Logii might reach 75% parry right away, I simply prefer to be a little cautious when making assumptions, and the somewhat unspecific >70% seemed to capture that pretty well (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)

I also understand that more parry is highly desirable for a DW build, but it's not the only thing you should care about, as Scremaz already pointed out. So the question really is, how much parry do you need?

I haven't played DW since the low 200's, so I can't really tell, but anything beyond 70% or even 75% does sound plenty. Add in some decent Shade gear and you're probably looking at 50-60% Evade as well, even before ShadowVeil is applied. You'll also have to worry way less about magic attacks than 1H due to much better resist (along with the aforementioned high Evade).
So I'd say once you're defensive stats have reached a level where you can consider yourself "safe", I don't see how going for more damage could be wrong.

I also understand that more parry is highly desirable for a DW build, but it's not the only thing you should care about, as Scremaz already pointed out. So the question really is, how much parry do you need?

If you go for arenas, 75~80% is enough even with heavy armor, so with shade probably axe+rapier all the way, even with rapier of slaughter, 50% is probably plenty in that case.
As for GF...maybe you need some more parry, especially to protect yourself from strong piercing attacks from monsters.

This post has been edited by ppp82p: May 23 2016, 02:37

I can probably get some better comparisons tomorrow after I finish the IW for the Axe and hopefully also get the forge materials for it since I put up a WTB today. Unfortunately I don't have a good Slaughter Shortsword to use for the comparisons (other than this, but it's not fair to compare with no IW, forge and Soulfuse). If you'll allow me, I'll use my Slaughter Rapier as a replacement since it has somewhat compareable stats to a Shortsword with my forging.

Some stats at the moment:
Axe + Rapier: 7818 attack base damage, 76% parry
Rapier + Wakizashi: 6975 attack base damage, 84.5% parry

Once I get the Axe ready to go, I'll also add some ADB comparisons with heavy armor for ppp82p (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: important note: my DW proficiency is only ~320, so I might do some grinding before posting results.

This post has been edited by Logii: May 23 2016, 03:54

I can probably get some better comparisons tomorrow after I finish the IW for the Axe and hopefully also get the forge materials for it since I put up a WTB today. Unfortunately I don't have a good Slaughter Shortsword to use for the comparisons (other than this, but it's not fair to compare with no IW, forge and Soulfuse). If you'll allow me, I'll use my Slaughter Rapier as a replacement since it has somewhat compareable stats to a Shortsword with my forging.

Some stats at the moment:
Axe + Rapier: 7818 attack base damage, 76% parry
Rapier + Wakizashi: 6975 attack base damage, 84.5% parry

Once I get the Axe ready to go, I'll also add some ADB comparisons with heavy armor for ppp82p (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Nice.
Rapier is quite ok to simulate a shortsword, it has the same stats besides adb, accuracy, strength and agility.

I can say that the difference between my slaughter rapier and my slaughter shortsword is 312 ADB when put as a mainhand. Both are Butcher 4 and forged to Lv 5 on ADB.
Shortsword has a slightly better ADB roll (L-1.84, while rapier is L-2.12) and 1 more forge on STR, but the difference it's low on big numbers.
(and you can see it with the axe, a forged lv 5 axe with butcher 1 results in 200 adb more than the shortsword, and the adb difference is Base 14.86)

This post has been edited by ppp82p: May 23 2016, 03:26

Okay, here are some comparisons for DW weapons:

Slaughter Axe + Nimble Rapier: 7840 attack base damage, 76.1% parry
Slaughter Rapier + Nimble Wakizashi: 6989 attack base damage, 84.5% parry

Slaughter Rapier + Nimble Rapier: 7168 attack base damage, 82.4% parry (Slaughter Rapier substituting a Shortsword I don't have)
Slaughter Axe + Nimble Wakizashi: 7661 attack base damage, 78.9% parry
Nimble Rapier + Nimble Wakizashi: 6627 attack base damage, 88% parry
Slaughter Axe + Slaughter Rapier: 8128 attack base damage, 59.6% parry

Heavy armor:
Slaughter Axe + Nimble Rapier: 9253 attack base damage, 77.6% parry
Slaughter Rapier + Nimble Rapier: 8583 attack base damage, 83.5% parry (Slaughter Rapier as a "Shortsword" again)
Slaughter Rapier + Nimble Wakizashi: 8404 attack base damage, 85.5% parry
Slaughter Axe + Slaughter Rapier: 9542 attack base damage, 62.2% parry

All of the combinations have 89-90% Offhand strike on hit (except for the Slaughter + Slaughter with 87%).

I think that if you can take the lower parry of Axe and Rapier instead of Rapier and Wakizashi, you can gain considerable amount of extra damage output. You could probably add another ~200 base damage to the "Shortsword" and Rapier combination to make up for the lower ADB and STR of Rapiers, it would not be too bad tradeoff for more defensive style (still 400-500 less base damage than Axe). Heavy armor looks pretty interesting, I might give it a little try at some point. However, note that Power is my main armor set at the moment and it has much more invested in it than my Shade set. Then some ranting, proceed with caution:

Note that my DW proficiency is only 322.53 at the time of testing (my level 392). Also I have no intention in grinding it to my level because I realized something too late. The monster parry rate on PFUDOR is still way too high even with Overpower Lv.7 (28% counter-parry) and I can't be bothered to reset my Axe IW for no real benefit over 1H playing style. For future patches I would suggest (on top of the Spirit Stance needing to last longer) either Overwhelming Strikes type of proc for DW or perhaps doubling the Overpower effect on off hand weapon (like the parry is). In my opinion requiring OP9 to OP10 for the fighting style to be useful on higher difficulties is just unreasonable. Good thing I realized this now though, I don't think I'm going to need to buy new Shade armor after all.

I think that if you can take the lower parry of Axe and Rapier instead of Rapier and Wakizashi, you can gain considerable amount of extra damage output. You could probably add another ~200 base damage to the "Shortsword" and Rapier combination to make up for the lower ADB and STR of Rapiers, it would not be too bad tradeoff for more defensive style (still 400-500 less base damage than Axe). Heavy armor looks pretty interesting, I might give it a little try at some point. However, note that Power is my main armor set at the moment and it has much more invested in it than my Shade set. Then some ranting, proceed with caution:

Yup, I doubt there's need for more than ~70% parry and the extra ADB is welcome. Then...

Note that my DW proficiency is only 322.53 at the time of testing (my level 392). Also I have no intention in grinding it to my level because I realized something too late. The monster parry rate on PFUDOR is still way too high even with Overpower Lv.7 (28% counter-parry) and I can't be bothered to reset my Axe IW for no real benefit over 1H playing style. For future patches I would suggest (on top of the Spirit Stance needing to last longer) either Overwhelming Strikes type of proc for DW or perhaps doubling the Overpower effect on off hand weapon (like the parry is). In my opinion requiring OP9 to OP10 for the fighting style to be useful on higher difficulties is just unreasonable. Good thing I realized this now though, I don't think I'm going to need to buy new Shade armor after all.

Been my point for a long time, and it should be noted that 2H suffers the same fate but worse since you can't have more than OP5. 1H has an insane advantage with OS when talking about PFUDOR, not even taking into account perma SS.
Now if parry was a bit normalized so that monsters with 30+% parry couldn't parry more than 3 times in a row (because f*ck RNG), maybe DW and 2H wouldn't suck so much, but as is, they just do.

slight OT: is there a quick and efficient way to remove subtitles? for example i reckon there were a plugin for VirtualDub but i was never able to make it work. either way, [img.fireden.net] momiji's goodies don't deserve such fate (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/anime_cry.gif)

DwD clear time 20 mins 40 seconds.

Is it even possible for mjolnir to be faster without a better internet connection?


hopefully when I finish my dark set it will be a bit faster.

DwD clear time 20 mins 40 seconds.

Is it even possible for mjolnir to be faster without a better internet connection?
hopefully when I finish my dark set it will be a bit faster.

Bubble Gum?

Yup, I doubt there's need for more than ~70% parry and the extra ADB is welcome. Then...

I agree. If you have decent Shade armor, using the Axe + Rapier combination instead of the Rapier + Wakizashi should not be a bad option at all.

Been my point for a long time, and it should be noted that 2H suffers the same fate but worse since you can't have more than OP5. 1H has an insane advantage with OS when talking about PFUDOR, not even taking into account perma SS.

I used to be a 2H player until level ~200, I could hardly believe how easy the game became when I changed to 1H (with Shade armor at that point). In my opinon 2H is almost unplayable on higher difficulties in the current HV, unless you go for something elaborate like Frederiksc. In 2H even OP5 will not save you and unlike in DW, you don't have the chance to get more OP. DW should in theory have a fighting chance against 1H, but in reality it's not very efficient. I tested the Axe + Rapier set yesterday in Exile arena and today I did it with my 1H set:

DW: 2,305 turns (7840 attack base damage)
1H: 1,672 turns (7670 attack base damage)

Of course there is a huge bias in my Shade set being worse than my Power set and my DW proficiency being lower, so there were more buffs and Cures for DW (also need to cast Shadow Veil because I only have IA3). However, lower defense is to be expected from DW, the point is that you should be trading some of the defense to more firepower. In the end the biggest difference was still in the parry rate of monsters. I was really surprised how many monsters could just casually parry several attacks even with 28% counter-parry, I have clearly underestimated the amount of chaos upgrades that high PL monsters have.

Now if parry was a bit normalized so that monsters with 30+% parry couldn't parry more than 3 times in a row (because f*ck RNG), maybe DW and 2H wouldn't suck so much, but as is, they just do.

The RNG is sometimes really bad (that was with 8% counter-parry with my previous DW experiment). Back then I also reached similar conclusions, but I wanted to give it another chance with better gear, level scaling and IW. Unfortunately it just wasn't enough. I'm almost masochistic enough that I would like to give it another chance with OP10 or perhaps with a Slaughter Club in main hand, but I feel like it's just a waste of time and resources in the current HV.

I agree. If you have decent Shade armor, using the Axe + Rapier combination instead of the Rapier + Wakizashi should not be a bad option at all.

my two cents: a decent Shade set may give you 50~55% evade at my level - not even the need to be full Fleet/Shadowdancer. maybe you can reach 66% or so with Shadow Veil. it's provable but i'm too lazy to do it.

currently i have 83%, so let's compare it with 70% Parry:

83: ( 1-0.66 ) * ( 1-0.83 ) = 0.0578 = 5.8% chance of physical incoming hits.

70: ( 1-0.66 ) * ( 1-0.70 ) = 0.102 = 10.2% chance of physical incoming hits.

which does make sense since we are on the higher edge of Parry stat.

roughly double the chance of being hit by physical attacks, which may also include Void and Piercing (which i remember are the same thing for a Shader). what are we even speaking about? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

my two cents: a decent Shade set may give you 50~55% evade at my level - not even the need to be full Fleet/Shadowdancer. maybe you can reach 66% or so with Shadow Veil. it's provable but i'm too lazy to do it.

currently i have 83%, so let's compare it with 70% Parry:

83: ( 1-0.66 ) * ( 1-0.83 ) = 0.0578 = 5.8% chance of physical incoming hits.

70: ( 1-0.66 ) * ( 1-0.70 ) = 0.102 = 10.2% chance of physical incoming hits.

which does make sense since we are on the higher edge of Parry stat.

roughly double the chance of being hit by physical attacks, which may also include Void and Piercing (which i remember are the same thing for a Shader). what are we even speaking about? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Oh, this made me wondering something (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

So, Block for 1H Heavy and evade for DW Light are quite the same (66-70%), and have the same effect (nullify the damage, both magical and physical).
Then DW has more parry and more resist.
So how come 1H is so much tankier than DW?
(stun is a a double-edged sword...you get all the attacks when it expires)

This post has been edited by ppp82p: May 24 2016, 19:31

my two cents: a decent Shade set may give you 50~55% evade at my level - not even the need to be full Fleet/Shadowdancer. maybe you can reach 66% or so with Shadow Veil. it's provable but i'm too lazy to do it.

currently i have 83%, so let's compare it with 70% Parry:

83: ( 1-0.66 ) * ( 1-0.83 ) = 0.0578 = 5.8% chance of physical incoming hits.

70: ( 1-0.66 ) * ( 1-0.70 ) = 0.102 = 10.2% chance of physical incoming hits.

which does make sense since we are on the higher edge of Parry stat.

roughly double the chance of being hit by physical attacks, which may also include Void and Piercing (which i remember are the same thing for a Shader). what are we even speaking about? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

That is a considerable difference, but note that the actual parry with Axe + Rapier is (at least for my set) 75+%. With the ~76% parry the difference isn't that radical. But yes, you are trading ~8-10% of parry to ~10-12% more base damage.

Oh, this made me wondering something (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

So, Block for 1H Heavy and evade for DW Light are quite the same (66-70%), and have the same effect (nullify the damage, both magical and physical).
Then DW has more parry and more resist.
So how come 1H is so much tankier than DW?
(stun is a a double-edged sword...you get all the attacks when it expires)

Stun is a huge benefit for 1H, even with the attacks coming after the stun expires. I would guess that the monsters would do more attacks without the stun than with it. Also aren't you missing one important point here: heavy armor has much higher mitigations, which is the main point of the armor type. Heavy armor also gives you higher HP, which also makes you tankier.