[X] My Assistant

I really can't see how that scaling model would be "better" in any way. The big advantage with multiplicative scaling is that when something states that it reduces damage with 10%, it will actually always reduce damage by 10% regardless of what else you happened to be using before adding it.

It's not going to be a "percentage" in the proposed system as it wouldn't make sense to name it that way. It could be named "defense" like "100 physical defense = 50% physical mitigation, 200 magical defense = 66.6% magical mitigation" and show the effective value in %mitigation at the end just as current (1-x)(1-y)(1-zn) does now.

The problem with direct reduction is that the more of it you have, the more dramatic it is per step. Unless you have some logarithmic scaling thing that reduces the amount of mitigation gained per level (the mathematics of which I wager would be harder to set up than 1/1+X), the benefit to the player pretty much exponentially increases the higher in level the player is and makes finding top-quality pieces so much more important.
(80->90% (going from 20 to 10% damage taken, a 200% time-to-live benefit) being a much more dramatic improvement than 70% -> 80% (30 to 20%, a 150% time-to-live benefit) for example.)

Assuming Equation is 100/(100+DEFENSE_VALUE_OF_STATS_AND_EQUIP_ADDED_TOGETHER):

Under the proposed system, going from 70% to 80% mitigation (3.33..x effective health to 5x effective health) would require going from 233 defense to 400, and going from 80% to 90% (5x to 10x effective health) would require going from 400 defense to 900. Since players could reach such values much much later than level ~400 (under current scaling factors, they could reach that only at around level 800), monster skill damage could stand to be less severe as a result.

And regardless of any other virtues it may have, there would be a huge amount of work involved, so the odds of it happening are zero. And I'm not talking "maybe, possibly, but close to zero"; actually zero.

Unless the damage system really does filter through each individual piece of armor/damage reduction instead of the end mitigation value, I really can't see how much harder it is to refit 1/(1+X) into (1-X)(1-Y)(...).

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: May 6 2012, 22:18

You wanted comments here you go (though I am also giving some to Tenboro

hey skillchip what do you think of my proposed 1/(1+x+y+zn) mitigation system over the (1-x)(1-y)(1-zn) mitigation system

nobody knows how to read that piece of text apparently (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I haven't really had time to run the numbers yet. Though it would be might work better for evening the playing field, I agree with Tenboro that it would take quite a bit of work and re-balancing to make work. You can already do some of the math you use to determine effective hp using the current system.

I really can't see how that scaling model would be "better" in any way. The big advantage with multiplicative scaling is that when something states that it reduces damage with 10%, it will actually always reduce damage by 10% regardless of what else you happened to be using before adding it.

And regardless of any other virtues it may have, there would be a huge amount of work involved, so the odds of it happening are zero. And I'm not talking "maybe, possibly, but close to zero"; actually zero.

This right here is why I like the way it is now. Though it takes a bit to wrap your head around it at first. Though I still can't seem to convince people that 1% mitigation = 1% avoidance, just when using avoidance you are playing with the RNG gods, and they don't play fair.

It's not going to be a "percentage" in the proposed system as it wouldn't make sense to name it that way. It could be named "defense" like "100 physical defense = 50% physical mitigation, 200 magical defense = 66.6% magical mitigation" and show the effective value in %mitigation at the end just as current (1-x)(1-y)(1-zn) does now.

The problem with direct reduction is that the more of it you have, the more dramatic it is per step. Unless you have some logarithmic scaling thing that reduces the amount of mitigation gained per level (the mathematics of which I wager would be harder to set up than 1/1+X), the benefit to the player pretty much exponentially increases the higher in level the player is and makes finding top-quality pieces so much more important.
(80->90% (going from 20 to 10% damage taken, a 200% time-to-live benefit) being a much more dramatic improvement than 70% -> 80% (30 to 20%, a 150% time-to-live benefit) for example.)
Unless the damage system really does filter through each individual piece of armor/damage reduction instead of the end mitigation value, I really can't see how much harder it is to refit 1/(1+X) into (1-X)(1-Y)(...).

I still think the current system where it is already in percentages should be easier to work with, then having to use the fractions. The main problem with how things now are that we players have more factors the monsters, and that the monsters scale up faster in the current system. Which means we need to bust out our estocs, put and just take away all their mitigation!

Am I still one of your kind?

I'm not a weird mutant, so no. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Anyway, I wonder whether the increased action speed actually means something... I think I'll have to take another look at skillchip research about it; now with the intentions of actually trying to understand it! (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/heh.gif)

Sorry if its a bit hard to read (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I guess people will get hurt by the speed cap at a much lower level now.

so whats new with this patch?

I guess people will get hurt by the speed cap at a much lower level now.

They will just reach it faster from the increased PABs, soon the round duration will be increased from 500 to 700 then 900 and so on.

As to whats new. Not to be a dick, but go read the patch notes, then come back.

I haven't really had time to run the numbers yet. Though it would be might work better for evening the playing field, I agree with Tenboro that it would take quite a bit of work and re-balancing to make work. You can already do some of the math you use to determine effective hp using the current system.

Assuming base maximum rolls for plate, (1-0.1152)(1-0.1383)(1-0.1047)(1-0.1257)(1-0.0921) = 0.541836536
1/0.541836536 = 1.846x effective health, before Endurance.

These values each go up by roughly 5% per 100 levels, which is a 5% reduction in damage from armor only. At level 1000, the player will have 3.692x effective health/0.268802867x damage taken from armor alone. At level 2000, that further doubles to 8.44673569x HP/0.11838893x damage taken. Huge non-linear jump. I assume this isn't really taken into account since nobody will take the time to level up to those values.

Endurance itself has a problem in its scaling as that direct increase scales sharply upwards instead of simply increasing HP by a percentage (which would be preferable) and the maximum mitigation from Endurance is 90%, 1286 endurance (90% mit) provides five times the effective health as 715 (50% mit) endurance before HP is taken to account, which honestly doesn't make a lick of sense to me, even with the EXP costs.

This right here is why I like the way it is now. Though it takes a bit to wrap your head around it at first. Though I still can't seem to convince people that 1% mitigation = 1% avoidance, just when using avoidance you are playing with the RNG gods, and they don't play fair.

It's easy to figure out, but since mitigation and endurance mitigation scale upwards linearly instead of logarithmically, you have freak occurrences like level 320 players getting 83% damage reduction and the average monster having to hit their skills for 8000+ on normal difficulties to counteract that.

Also, there's pitfalls where mitigation vs. some enemy skills (namely El1a's) won't help you no matter how much mitigation you pile on unless you have huge percentile rolls, in which case infrequently getting hit would be preferable. Though I imagine that's very hard to explain to people who don't have the slightest grasp on numbers... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I still think the current system where it is already in percentages should be easier to work with, then having to use the fractions. The main problem with how things now are that we players have more factors the monsters, and that the monsters scale up faster in the current system. Which means we need to bust out our estocs, put and just take away all their mitigation!

Over the long term, pushing everyone towards the same playstyle isn't really a good thing unless the chief intent is to fuck with the players (and I hope it isn't.) I'd like all factors to be closer together with little adjustments instead of sweeping changes made to fix rolling problems in the game system not seen until much later.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: May 6 2012, 22:55

0.6.7 in a nutshell:

Maging is officially awesome again. Oh and trophies.

The problem with changing everything based on the player ratio, is controlling for why people are playing the way they were. Were we playing with sharp pointy swords because the bleed was awesome, or was it because that by abusing shatter, it was just icing on the cake. I really think it was the later.

Come to think of it, to hell with it. Just put the 1/1+x+y mitigation system in, but derived from primary stats only and keep armor as-is now. That way, monster mitigation and the biggest source of player mitigation scale linearly instead of exponentially (1000-1200 END monsters having 55-66% mitigation instead of ~75-90% at level 400), and Penetrated Armor/new magic debuff won't be so OP in comparison as they'd only merely double/triple damage instead of 3-8x it.

You can do that, right Ten? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

The problem with changing everything based on the player ratio, is controlling for why people are playing the way they were. Were we playing with sharp pointy swords because the bleed was awesome, or was it because that by abusing shatter, it was just icing on the cake. I really think it was the later.

Which makes the solution taken, making bleed totally suck compared to the other two, just plain overkill with the skill change. With a reduction like that, bleed needs something else to keep it in line with others. I suggest a survivability improvement by debuffing the monsters as opposed to completely shutting them down like stun does. It'd work under this archetype:

PA: Pure ++damage. Throw caution into the wind!
Bleed: Medium damage + some survivability. Spiky hits get dampened, but not totally safe.
Stun: Small damage + lots of suvivability. IWBTH fodder.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: May 6 2012, 23:06

Now that is interesting lol, I like it!

This post has been edited by skillchip: May 6 2012, 23:21

Have a fixed mit for different monster type. Stats = Increase HP.

(IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

I'm just joking btw...

This post has been edited by buktore: May 6 2012, 23:41

For the past several days it's been doing the one click & instantly die thing on my random battles. I don't know why it's been doing that.

Which means we need to bust out our estocs, put and just take away all their mitigation!

ALL OF IT.

I won one! No drops at all.

For the past several days it's been doing the one click & instantly die thing on my random battles. I don't know why it's been doing that.

Monsters also got buffed, thanks to the patch change, also Eila.

Now when I do IWBTH Hourlies, my first spell would be Spark, then Haste, Protection (SV for magic), Spark again (if the first one got triggered), Cure x2, then start killing

Slow as hell for melee, but fastest 300k exp for magic users

Monsters also got buffed, thanks to the patch change, also Eila.

But it's been doing that since last week, before the patch. Unless he was fiddling with things before then. In the past I would lose a random here and there but not the majority of them.

Fuck, I actually forgot how to play mage. I tried it for some arena rounds and had no clue what to do. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Anyway, I've been playing dual wield ethereals and I don't want to give that up. HV is so boring, I depend on my randoms for EXP.

Put on some of my old Fox pieces and got this:


This patch might be kind of fun (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Shadowdancer armor: Massacre armor or massacre armor?

With good enough DB/crit/PAB rolls you could get +600 damage, +9% crit, and +200 dex and agi in the level 300 range.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: May 7 2012, 00:45