[X] My Assistant

Also, 18 lurkers trying to garbage a gallery they don't like is impressive.

As far [www.google.com] I can see someone posted link to this gallery in [en.wikipedia.org] some other forum.

@Shadow: Support tags like realporn, are valuable tools for organized expunging. it would also be useful when combined with tag flagging, especially when dealing with the new uploads. Additionally, as 3d0 points out, you've failed to show why a realporn tag would be bad. As for what's next...

I showed why it was not needed. Here's also a concept about not showing it was bad, when one makes a proposal the usual order is to then present arguments in its favour before arguments are made against. I'm often seen as this unreasonable bad guy because I ask people to argue in favour of a new tag. Is it a bad thing to ask people to convince me? It must be because nobody ever seems to make an attempt.

Having said that, I am gobsmacked. You actually provided a compelling argument. Yes it would work well with tag flagging. That is reasonable. Now before it can be used we need to figure out a few details. First, one word or two? How is it going to be applied? I assume not on asian porn as that is a whole category and would be redundant. How about non-nude asians?

So why don't you guys work out the details of how you want your new tag to work and when I come back tonight we can finalize it. Was that so hard?

As for your cause I am like Spectre, I am not against expunging things as garbage but I will only do it on galleries I consider garbage.

My suggestion is to add the tag 'photo.' Any gallery consisting primarily of photographs rather than drawings (or computer renderings) would receive this tag. The drawback to this would be that, presumably every gallery in 'asian porn' should receive this tag... I'm not sure how to address that issue. Possibly have every 'asian porn' category labeled with photo automatically? It's kind of stupid, but it would probably be quite feasible, and a 'photo' tag would be short/convenient, self-explanitory, and useful in diverse situations. You could also just not bother with applying it on 'asian porn' galleries. I dunno.

Thus, to find porn, you could search for 'photo' and remove 'non-h'
To find non-asian porn, you could simply remove 'asian porn' from the search.
And you could add 'photo' to your taglist and avoid non-drawn items altogether.

Back to the topic at hand, regarding 'real porn' -- If the precedent is set to remove 'real porn,' then I will happily support any effort to remove other porn that I don't like. I suggest we start with guro and furry porn. (before you object that it 'fits with the theme of the site,' allow me to counter that it is nonetheless 'garbage.') By all the arguments given by those in favor of removing 'real porn' in this thread, this is reasonable and within the 'majority rules,' correct? Forgive the devil's advocate here, but I see very little difference between these ideas. I feel that you could make the exact same argument towards anything that you don't personally enjoy.

I also object to calling this kind of stuff 'majority rules,' btw. How does a group of, say, 25 like-minded people constitute a majority?

This post has been edited by Cong: Jul 2 2010, 14:03

Back to the topic at hand, regarding 'real porn' -- If the precedent is set to remove 'real porn,' then I will happily support any effort to remove other porn that I don't like. I suggest we start with guro and furry porn. (before you object that it 'fits with the theme of the site,' allow me to counter that it is nonetheless 'garbage.') By all the arguments given by those in favor of removing 'real porn' in this thread, this is reasonable and within the 'majority rules,' correct? Forgive the devil's advocate here, but I see very little difference between these ideas. I feel that you could make the exact same argument towards anything that you don't personally enjoy.

I also object to calling this kind of stuff 'majority rules,' btw. How does a group of, say, 25 like-minded people constitute a majority?

It's not "majority rules". As said by administrator, it should be "significant consensus". That means no one (or at least very few) from high powered users or moderators opposes and enough of them support this.
This is major difference. You can see furry in some users avatars *cough*Tenboro*cough*.

That's precisely why I chose that example. Because I know that some people here clearly have some niche tastes, themselves. They must surely be aware that their proclivities are not widely shared, and in fact are sometimes reviled. I would normally expect more of a 'live and let live' position, at least from these people.

Now, for those who think that we need consensus, fair enough. I agree. But as the following quote should illustrate, not everyone seems to feel that way. My comment was meant for people who share this view; perhaps I should have been more specific. I did say I was playing the devil's advocate.

And to be frank if you can get together 200 power worth of expunging, you do have a right, the way the rules are written, to expunge something as garbage, assuming that your reason is actually that it is garbage/has no place on this site.
If you don't like that, then you need to try to get the rules changed, not come here and tell me I can't do what I feel is important, and follows the rules.

I guess it's just what Alpha 7 was saying.

P.S. Bonus points if you neg people because you don't agree with them. Classy.

This post has been edited by Cong: Jul 2 2010, 16:08

It's not "majority rules". As said by administrator, it should be "significant consensus". That means no one (or at least very few) from high powered users or moderators opposes and enough of them support this.
This is major difference. You can see furry in some users avatars *cough*Tenboro*cough*.

If that is your definition, the two "highest powered" users aside from the administrator are Shadow and myself with 51%/26% expunge power and both of us have something against this. I know you said "at least very few" but him and I together would be worth 52% of a garbage expunge. If you mean by administrative power, well there's me, and dlagakslanfwekjrxlivu has posed more questions and concerns than consensus that mirrors the cause. If you mean by "popularity", well that's not a safe card to play especially if you base it off of karma, since it's use is just spammed nowadays (though I don't remember the last time I gave karma...).

If that is your definition, the two "highest powered" users aside from the administrator are Shadow and myself with 51%/26% expunge power and both of us have something against this. I know you said "at least very few" but him and I together would be worth 52% of a garbage expunge. If you mean by administrative power, well there's me, and dlagakslanfwekjrxlivu has posed more questions and concerns than consensus that mirrors the cause. If you mean by "popularity", well that's not a safe card to play especially if you base it off of karma, since it's use is just spammed nowadays (though I don't remember the last time I gave karma...).

Ahem...
It's really hard to say, that you "have something against this", then you both basicly saying: "Go ahead, and we will help you a little, but don't count on us."
I will call it weak support or neutral position, at best.

My suggestion is to add the tag 'photo.' Any gallery consisting primarily of photographs rather than drawings (or computer renderings) would receive this tag. The drawback to this would be that, presumably every gallery in 'asian porn' should receive this tag... I'm not sure how to address that issue. Possibly have every 'asian porn' category labeled with photo automatically? It's kind of stupid, but it would probably be quite feasible, and a 'photo' tag would be short/convenient, self-explanitory, and useful in diverse situations. You could also just not bother with applying it on 'asian porn' galleries. I dunno.

Thus, to find porn, you could search for 'photo' and remove 'non-h'
To find non-asian porn, you could simply remove 'asian porn' from the search.
And you could add 'photo' to your taglist and avoid non-drawn items altogether.

Back to the topic at hand, regarding 'real porn' -- If the precedent is set to remove 'real porn,' then I will happily support any effort to remove other porn that I don't like. I suggest we start with guro and furry porn. (before you object that it 'fits with the theme of the site,' allow me to counter that it is nonetheless 'garbage.') By all the arguments given by those in favor of removing 'real porn' in this thread, this is reasonable and within the 'majority rules,' correct? Forgive the devil's advocate here, but I see very little difference between these ideas. I feel that you could make the exact same argument towards anything that you don't personally enjoy.

I also object to calling this kind of stuff 'majority rules,' btw. How does a group of, say, 25 like-minded people constitute a majority?

And you've made my ignore list, I asked you to stop with the pointless slippery slope arguments, since you insist on continuing with them I'm just going to assume you're intentionally trolling my thread and will simply avoid further argument with you.

I think at this point we've reached an impasse. If neither side of this argument is willing to compromise we won't get very far at reaching a conclusion.
To me, this would mean eliminating the 'slippery slope' arguments that this expunge will result in more mass expunges. Both sides of this argument are vulnerable to that particular argument anyway.
For example: Reductio ad absurdum.
If we allow the expunge we become nazis that only allow our particular brand of masturbatory material. By sheer force of our own personal hit squad anything we consider to be irritating, un-arousing, or just plain stupid is quickly expunged as garbage.
If we refuse to expunge we become a site filled with so much garbage that one would find it impossible to find the type of material that they are looking for. The server would bog down as we become a host for all of the pornography of the Internet.
Given that both sides are a slippery slope in that view, the argument is useless.
Now, back on topic: I personally believe that both sides have merit, however; I must also state that the community surrounding e-hentai.org is the ultimate decider. The simple fact that SO much real porn is being uploaded logically states that it has merit, however; That same influx of real porn is making it more than a bit annoying to sift through the already impressive number of uploads per day to find what any one person considers to be worthwhile material. Add on to that the recent annoyance from the advertisers and we may just have a problem.
The loss of material, and the addition of unrelated material has clearly annoyed at least a few users. If those users get annoyed enough, they will simply find their 'fix' elsewhere. This will lose the revenue from said users through donations and adverts.
Though as someone pointed out, the real porn could either be increasing or decreasing the revenue per image the fact of the matter is that this site is called e-hentai. Most people looking for real porn are going to skip over it by virtue of name alone.
Registering a new domain name which points to a specialization in real porn will probably increase the exposure of the material and therefore the exposure of the adverts. This should generate a larger overall increase in advertising revenue.
The same approach would also get it out of the way for the people who are here for hentai and similar mediums.
In my humble opinion, I do believe this is the best approach. It would also not be too difficult to implement. Again bringing up the topic of tagging, a realporn tag that automatically transfered exposure to the other site could speed up the process greatly.

Let's do this!

Plox, even if my 14 garbage power is included, we would still be a decent way off from being able to go forward.

What I meant was that we should stop the bickering and get this back on track.

I'd like to make one suggestion, if you'll hear me out.

If we limit the number of real porn galleries we are expunging at one time, we'll decrease the risk of pissing off one of the gallery overlords. Additionally, this will potentially help some of those that are against real porn galleries but don't want to make commitment to put to much effort into it. For example, if we limit ourselves to no more than ten galleries being expunged in this way on the table, we won't seriously fuck up the list of expunges; and we won't overwhelm those that only expunge galleries casually. Whenever one of the galleries is fully expunged, another gallery can go up.

This is also a good way to test the system to make sure it works. In theory, if we have 100 or more expunge power, we can do it, however, some people might not be as active at expunging or only do a handful at a time. Others might spend some days away from the site and not be active, allowing attempted expunges to build up. However, on the other hand, people who haven't signed on might visit the Vigilante thread to expunge real porn and help out, potentially making those other variables a moot point. If it turns out to be a bigger success than we initially hoped, we can raise the limit. If it is a slow process, we might avoid inciting the fury of the forum overlords while we wait for the petitions to build up.

(NOTE: If any of you think this a good idea, would you please quote the suggestion in your post. There are several people in this board that have me on ignore and might not read the message otherwise. However, if you think this is a bad idea, then just ignore it.)

This post has been edited by BradRepko: Jul 3 2010, 08:02

For example, if we limit ourselves to no more than ten galleries being expunged in this way on the table, we won't seriously fuck up the list of expunges; and we won't overwhelm those that only expunge galleries casually. Whenever one of the galleries is fully expunged, another gallery can go up.

I'm not a big fan of massive link blocks, but 10 at a time would take forever.

I'm not a big fan of massive link blocks, but 10 at a time would take forever.

True. However, if they actually go fast, then the limit could be increased rapidly. However, let's say that it takes a few days for those petitions to get up enough votes to be expunged? If it's only ten at a time, then that means the gallery overlords won't have a cow (hopefully). Whereas if their is twenty, thirty, forty, or more at a time, and it takes days to accumulate the votes, then they might throw a shit fit and delete all the expunge petitions, meaning all those links would have to done all over again and could potentially take even longer.

The limit doesn't have to permanent either. During the test run, it can remain or go up, but if we are having no trouble getting those votes and getting them expunged, we can remove the limit entirely.

The first problem with you suggestion of 10 is that's less than the number of new ones coming in each day.

I still believe that a hard cap that could be increase through credits would cause a significant drop in the amount real porn coming in. Start everybody with 20-25 and then train for say 10 more, it will quickly not be worth the credits to train as the training will cost more than the galleries will bring in.

Also those screaming for a real porn tag have yet to go over any details. It's almost a whole day later with no talk at all, makes me wonder if it's really that important.

The first problem with you suggestion of 10 is that's less than the number of new ones coming in each day.

Sanity check (on my part): You are aware that I'm suggesting a limit on the number of real porn expunges that are petitioned at one time, right?

First, the number 10 was some number I pulled out of my ass as an example, I'm not suggesting the limit be that number. The suggestion is a temporary limit on the number of different real porn galleries the group files to expunge for the reason of just being real porn. It is a voluntary limit that would exist for the sole purpose of testing the waters to see if expunging real porn galleries is even viable at the moment. It would likely only be a temporary limit. If there is enthusiasm for eliminating real porn galleries, then the limit will be unnecessary and likely within a week could be revoked.

However, if people only sporadically petition to expunge these galleries, it's going to be a slow process anyway. If forty or fifty real porn galleries are being petitioned but not getting the votes to send them over the top, then the gallery overlords might delete all the expunges on there anyway, which would slow down the process even further. This could potentially put the kibosh on the whole thing, both now and in the future; especially if Tenboro gets frustrated with his gallery overlords repeatedly complaining about the expunge list being spammed up with failing petitions on real porn. If we exercise restraint at first and test the waters, and find out that even with the 120+ combined power, people aren't living up to their commitments, then we could postpone the project and pick up when we have more support

This post has been edited by BradRepko: Jul 3 2010, 09:58

Also, 18 lurkers trying to garbage a gallery they don't like is impressive.

The sheer number of people is what impressed me the most. Just think, if the Garbage vote was full power, they would have succeeded in killing it and none of us would have noticed.

I showed why it was not needed. Here's also a concept about not showing it was bad, when one makes a proposal the usual order is to then present arguments in its favour before arguments are made against. I'm often seen as this unreasonable bad guy because I ask people to argue in favour of a new tag. Is it a bad thing to ask people to convince me? It must be because nobody ever seems to make an attempt.

Having said that, I am gobsmacked. You actually provided a compelling argument. Yes it would work well with tag flagging. That is reasonable. Now before it can be used we need to figure out a few details. First, one word or two? How is it going to be applied? I assume not on asian porn as that is a whole category and would be redundant. How about non-nude asians?

Actually, the problem here is: we did explain why it was good and needed but, while it was clear and obvious to the supporters of it, you, not being a current/former active expunger, just didn't get our reasoning. While I cannot speak for the regulars of Re-Up, if I had to make a guess, I believe all of them would support a real porn tag for this project's use, and all for the same reason. (Yes, I am confident enough to say "all".) The tag-flagging part is more of a bonus to deal with the new (not yet posted) stuff.

While it may show up on an Asian Porn gallery (much like brunette and asian do), it likely will be ignored, or nuked by some of us.

I'm not a big fan of massive link blocks, but 10 at a time would take forever.

This, too, is a concern. Just a 50 or 60 link "bomb" drop is enough to scare people away from voting, people who would vote on a 15-20 link list.

*****

I don't know if this will help, and it is a little out of date, but here is a list of notable voters. Some have spoken, others have not, and some have been overall quiet/missing/retired, still a personal request may or may not help the cause.

Voting Power List
===========
+126 Tenboro
+51 Shadow Weaver
+51 Spectre
+42 Tenseigamoon
+38 Dlaglacz
+37 EvolutionKing
+35 Forth_Lancer
+35 Alpha 7

+28 Red_Piotrus
+27 Boggyb
+26 Kir
+27 Sayo Aisaka
+23 radixius
+22 Liquid Drygun
+22 bladejtr
+21 Grahf
+24 3d0xp0xy
+18 pop9
+17 Rei-Tenshi
+15 mr daniels
+14 MasakiLHW
+10 ichigai
+8 excrtd

The sheer number of people is what impressed me the most. Just think, if the Garbage vote was full power, they would have succeeded in killing it and none of us would have noticed.
Actually, the problem here is: we did explain why it was good and needed but, while it was clear and obvious to the supporters of it, you, not being a current/former active expunger, just didn't get our reasoning. While I cannot speak for the regulars of Re-Up, if I had to make a guess, I believe all of them would support a real porn tag for this project's use, and all for the same reason. (Yes, I am confident enough to say "all".) The tag-flagging part is more of a bonus to deal with the new (not yet posted) stuff.

You mean that this will let us find stuff that we already have ways of finding argument? I was looking for a bit more compelling than it will make it easier to expunge galleries fully uploaded within the rules of the site. However allowing for only one tag flagging slot to be used instead of at least three is a good reason.

Again, here it is 22.5 hours later and no one has tried to discuss the details. If it was so important there should have been at least one post on the matter, I don't care if it is a long weekend, that makes me question just how important it was considering the seemingly urgent need.

You mean that this will let us find stuff that we already have ways of finding argument? I was looking for a bit more compelling than it will make it easier to expunge galleries fully uploaded within the rules of the site. However allowing for only one tag flagging slot to be used instead of at least three is a good reason.

Again, here it is 22.5 hours later and no one has tried to discuss the details. If it was so important there should have been at least one post on the matter, I don't care if it is a long weekend, that makes me question just how important it was considering the seemingly urgent need.

Simplicity and Redundancy, I suppose. Those aren't good arguments, but they are the best I could come up with. Admittedly, you do make a damn good point. I'd likely never use the tag anyway, but I wouldn't down vote the tag either. When it comes down to it, it's a numbers game. If the up votes tag power is higher than the down votes, the tag will stay. If the down votes are equal to or greater than the down votes, it won't.

I'm staying neutral on this one; I have no reason to use the tag. Even though I agree with your arguments and think the tag is pretty useless, I won't cast aside people who earnestly believe it would be a boon to their efforts. Sorry Shadow.