[X] My Assistant

Drain mechanic, with current gameplay, is a non-issue. There's not a lot of time you would use drain outside of marathons, so your point is kinda moot.

False. The drain mechanic isn't needed outside of Grindfest, and only for SP. MP drain is completely unneeded with standard ET and Focus.

Fucking yes, especially when you consider we have to Imperil almost as much as you do, and our damage output, aside from specific instances, is pretty much identical to elemental, despite much higher mana costs. Did you think imperil is cost-free?

Also wrong. Danixxx already said he attacks and then imperils survivors, which implies fewer survive than die. If not, he would be blanket Imperiling like all elemental mages. That is due to a huge disparity in the actual resistance profile, both before and after Imperil is applied. There are far more high-resist monsters for elemental than holy/dark.

This is false. It does mean something. You can only play so many hours per day, and with the drop bonus and the crystal bonus, you're encouraged to go further for better loot.

It doesn't mean anything because gameplay that far into GF is a crawl, and I've only done it once. The volume of drops just spamming as fast as you can from 1-200 far exceeds the extra amount you can get from 200-500 in the same amount of time.

Holy/Dark shouldn't deal equal damage pre/post-imperil compared to elemental. There's the tier segregation. Holy/Dark on theory should deal more damage compared to elemental, but in reality it's not true. We deal more damage pretty much only in schoolgirl arenas. In grindfest all bets are off.

They do and always have dealt more damage. You are just pissed because the gap between Elemental and Holy/Dark started off massive when you began building your Holy set, but now the gap has shrunk. Well I got bad news for you. Soul was king once, and it's dead and gone. The gaps between Holy/Dark have shrunk more and more over time, and they're probably on their way to being merged into one generic mage layout.

Besides, AOE imperil benefits elementals much more so compared to holy/dark. True, you have worse resistance profile. However, imperil's -specific resistance counters this. In addition, AOE Imperil reduces your Imperil need greatly, while its usefulness isn't as much for Holy/Dark cause as you said, better resistance profile. We still spend the same amount of MP for Imperil but we get less benefits.

...How is that? The overall profile after Imperil is still worse for elemental. Because you don't have to use it nearly as much? Great argument. If you're not blanket imperiling, then you're not spending as much mana on imperil either. More imperil use also means more resists and even more MP used.

Tell you what. If Tenboro make Holy/Dark base damage equal to elemental, and make the mana costs equal as well, I'll be happy.

Balance the resistance profile according to the huge imbalance of high PL monsters, and then you can make them cost the same.

This post has been edited by hitokiri84: Aug 3 2013, 23:30

You are just pissed because the gap between the Elemental and Holy/Dark started off massive when you began building your Holy set, but now the gap has shrunk.

And am I wrong in being pissed? If not for me and other holy/dark mages being pissed, Holy/Dark would be further behind compared to Elemental due to no holy/dark imperil.

You deal practically the same damage as us, yet you use nearly half the MP. Shouldn't I be pissed?

You don't even have to ET and your phase is not even maxed out, yet you casually get to 500 rounds of IWBTH without even trying to conserve MP or ET. Meanwhile I have to ET my ass off and try all the tricks in the world to get to the same place. Shouldn't I be pissed?

If there is such a huge advantage for holy/dark I don't see it.

Also wrong. Danixxx already said he attacks and then imperils survivors, which implies fewer survive than die. If not, he would be blanket Imperiling like all elemental mages. That is due to a huge disparity in the actual resistance profile, both before and after Imperil is applied. There are far more high-resist monsters for elemental than holy/dark.

Nope monsters have better elemental resistance profile after imperil, thats why you can OS everything and some monsters are surviving on my side.

Edit: BTW, i cast imperil before my spells, dunno where you saw i said otherwise.

This post has been edited by danixxx: Aug 4 2013, 00:31

*Stands around swinging axe while they argue about magicks.*
How about an additional bonus beyond one armor class for single material sets? Like an evade bonus for cloth types, mitigation for light, and damage for heavy.

Relevant to the elemental vs. holy/dark mage war, straight from the To Be Added page of the wiki:

More abilities for the Fighting Style, Armor, Divine, and Forbidden panes

You deal practically the same damage as us, yet you use nearly half the MP. Shouldn't I be pissed?

Depends on how our magic scores compare. And I don't see how you have any insight on what damage I do to which monsters since I haven't posted anything. Clairvoyance?

You don't even have to ET and your phase is not even maxed out, yet you casually get to 500 rounds of IWBTH without even trying to conserve MP or ET. Meanwhile I have to ET my ass off and try all the tricks in the world to get to the same place. Shouldn't I be pissed?

Differences in strategy. Differences in damage avoidance/mitigation. Maybe you're not as careful as I am about using spells. Do you use any scrolls? Are you using 5 Econ? IA5? Any damage perks? You don't have a Holy version of my staff either. It can be any combination of those things and more.

And not casually. Carefully and intelligently.

Edit: BTW, i cast imperil before my spells, dunno where you saw i said otherwise.

Right here, only 14+ hours ago. I don't see how it can mean anything else.

imperiling everything that doesn't die straight away is the best way to play IWBTH.

Doesn't mean he heeds his own advice.

Depends on how our magic scores compare. And I don't see how you have any insight on what damage I do to which monsters since I haven't posted anything. Clairvoyance?
Differences in strategy. Differences in damage avoidance/mitigation. Maybe you're not as careful as I am about using spells. Do you use any scrolls? Are you using 5 Econ? IA5? Any damage perks? You don't have a Holy version of my staff either. It can be any combination of those things and more.

And not casually. Carefully and intelligently.
Right here, only 14+ hours ago. I don't see how it can mean anything else.

Well, I'm using 2 mag max phase + 3 leg max phase, all fully forged EDB and Int. 3 of them have good int and wis rolls as well.

When I post that, I made a few assumptions:

• You deal a bit less damage than me after imperil since your gear is less forged overall, except the staff.
• The difference in damage isn't that huge, otherwise you'd have spirit troubles.
• Your staff makes up for the difference in forging, and since forging now is logarithmic, I think this is possible.

As for the rest of the stats I assumed they're the same since we're roughly the same level. Econ 5 and IA5 was a given.

As for damage perks, I have up to 15%.

As for what danixxx means, I thought it was painfully clear: If you can't kill it fast, you better imperil it before you kill it. Maybe it's because of how our play styles are similar that I got his meaning.

Right here, only 14+ hours ago. I don't see how it can mean anything else.

That's called experience because after casting a shitload of spells you know who would die and who will rape your spirit bar and/or will cost you more mana if you don't kill it fast.

This post has been edited by danixxx: Aug 4 2013, 07:31

Fucking yes, especially when you consider we have to Imperil almost as much as you do, and our damage output, aside from specific instances, is pretty much identical to elemental, despite much higher mana costs. Did you think imperil is cost-free?

False. The drain mechanic isn't needed outside of Grindfest, and only for SP. MP drain is completely unneeded with standard ET and Focus.

Stop showing part of other side that is inferior and then following it up "and that's why my style is weaker". (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Tell you what. If Tenboro make Holy/Dark base damage equal to elemental, and make the mana costs equal as well, I'll be happy.

I won't be, I don't want elements be only different in only name and resist profile. Easier idea: Combine all player elements into one, all EDBs into one and T1/T2/T3 together. Then when player casts a spell the element is picked at random.

It doesn't mean anything because gameplay that far into GF is a crawl, and I've only done it once. The volume of drops just spamming as fast as you can from 1-200 far exceeds the extra amount you can get from 200-500 in the same amount of time.

This+ the fact that you can finish IWBTH arenas with Holy/dark + have specialized arenas with best equip clear bonus & exp bonus & trophies from mobs is why I think holy/dark is superior.

I personally find it interesting that
A ) if you look at imperil+average spell cost+upkeep, you end up at best 25% mana conversation for elemental over holy/dark. Add a cure, or 2nd or third imperil and it becomes much worse. And if you don't imperil, well, Hello awful Resistance Profile, makes roughly holy t2~elemental t3. Tenboro didn't pull out the mana costs out of thin air.
B ) you people bring drain in this, given that one side doesn't have it at all (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
C ) Still the talk of ebony staves. I've seen only 3 legendary fiery ebony staffs that are either of surtr, destruction or elemental. Oh wait, I guess there go more than third of usable ebony staffs since prof is shit now.

Meanwhile I have to ET my ass off and try all the tricks in the world to get to the same place.

I take offense at that, given I've gotten the monicker of "Armstrong" for using just protection scrolls and tapping monsters before ET was cool yet you yourself are still using a prof staff and not a single scroll, and still stancing instead of focusing(Yeah, it is not worth the trade in speed but that's beside the point).

This post has been edited by Lement: Aug 4 2013, 07:47

I won't be, I don't want elements be only different in only name and resist profile. Easier idea: Combine all player elements into one, all EDBs into one and T1/T2/T3 together. Then when player casts a spell the element is picked at random.

I just want to be somewhat mana efficient, that's all (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Funny little story: Playing like an elemental mage (imperil everything then melt face) actually pushes me about 80-100 rounds further than playing like a holy (imperil mobs that are resistant). I guess the resistance profile really helps holy huh (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Tenboro has said before that he doesn't want any such forge benefits to be transferable.

The IWed weapons with potencies are transferable now, and always have been. Your logic does not follow at all dude. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif)

Tenboro has only mentioned making unique enchantments (linked to forge level/rank) nontransferable, not potencies.

Bit different things, but fine.

Infusions and IW are already obvious, but how about this for reforge:

For every 10 forge levels, you can remember 1 IW potency when reforging.

For salvaging, increase salvagee's PXP0(thus quality) by forge rank/2 before salvaging.

With the recent screw up with armor potency, I have an idea:

How about instead of a bug, make it a feature that's only accessible for people who maxed forge?

Re-enable it for weapons as well.

Now you might complain that this is too unfair, but I don't think it is. See, the people who have maxed forge are very unlikely to have IW services open, thereby not really making it easier as a whole. It just makes their life easier and provide an incentive to level up the forge.

So for example, the level curve would do something like this:

Level 10 forge - 1 infusion enabled (meaning if you infuse 2 infusions on the item, one will be randomly chosen to be ignored as possible IW rewards).
Level 20 forge - 2 infusions enabled.
Level 30 forge - 3 infusions enabled.
Level 40 forge - 4 infusions enabled.
Level 45 forge - 5 infusions enabled.
Level 50 forge - 6 infusions enabled.

Also, it'd be nice to get a potency for spirit as well, to complete the trinity (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by ChosenUno: Aug 4 2013, 17:41

Stop showing part of other side that is inferior and then following it up "and that's why my style is weaker". (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

I don't see that phrase written or even implied. You've entirely missed the point that Holy/Dark have recovery options that contribute to the reasoning that they still deserve to be more expensive. Just one of several factors.

And to the few that still argue it should still be changed, well you are complaining to the wrong person obviously. I'd say go complain to tenboro, but half the time that's like yelling at a brick wall. Except with a brick wall, you can at least be certain that it's actually there and listening to you.

I won't be, I don't want elements be only different in only name and resist profile. Easier idea: Combine all player elements into one, all EDBs into one and T1/T2/T3 together. Then when player casts a spell the element is picked at random.

That sounds like a god-awful idea. But it wouldn't be the first time all phase in existence was rendered useless.

not a single scroll

It's easier to just belligerently blame some non-existent inequity in game mechanics than to not ignore the use of items that double your effective mitigation/evade/speed bonuses.

Right?

I just want to be somewhat mana efficient, that's all (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Funny little story: Playing like an elemental mage (imperil everything then melt face) actually pushes me about 80-100 rounds further than playing like a holy (imperil mobs that are resistant). I guess the resistance profile really helps holy huh (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Then what are you wasting so much MP on while using the supposedly "best" IWBTH method? Did you never take the 20s needed to compare your mana usage per round between blanket Imperiling vs only Imperiling the "strong" ones? That would typically be the first thing to do to become mana efficient.

stancing instead of focusing(Yeah, it is not worth the trade in speed but that's beside the point).

And don't stance. That's the worst thing you can do with OC as a mage on GF. It ranks just behind "do nothing" IMO. It wastes SP and it's horribly MP inefficient compared to Focus, unless you're planning to cast Regen and Arcane Focus for 25 rounds (hint: use only channeling to recast them when below 50% duration.) Obviously you should not worry about a speed difference if your concern is longevity.

hitokiri: both speed and longevity matter. Speed a ton more obviously since pretty much only the now-smalltime crystals get bonus from longevity.

This post has been edited by Lement: Aug 4 2013, 18:56

You've entirely missed the point that Holy/Dark have recovery options that contribute to the reasoning that they still deserve to be more expensive. Just one of several factors.

Sorry to butt in and correct me if I am wrong. But aren't a lot of people saying that the drain mechanics in place right now are difficult to use, and almost useless?

It's easier to just belligerently blame some non-existent inequity in game mechanics than to not ignore the use of items that double your effective mitigation/evade/speed bonuses.

Right?

You do have a point there. I never really considered scroll to be anything but "useless", due to their duration, mainly. I just don't have the focus needed to manage scrolls on top of buffs (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif). I like my movies (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif). But yeah, that's a mental slip on my part. Acknowledged.

Then what are you wasting so much MP on while using the supposedly "best" IWBTH method? Did you never take the 20s needed to compare your mana usage per round between blanket Imperiling vs only Imperiling the "strong" ones? That would typically be the first thing to do to become mana efficient.

I didn't say it was the best method, I just showed that example to make a point. See, if I played exactly like an elemental mage (blanket imperil -> melt face), then, since the pros of holy/dark is "worth the cost", as you seem to think, I should at least be able to manage as far or a little bit closer, right? And I still had to ET a ton just to get there. So no, I still stand by my point that the mana costs for Holy/Dark greatly outweighs the usefulness.

Of course, that example is rather biased, since the resistance profile does indeed favor holy/dark over elemental. However, mana costs as a con far outweighs that (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

And don't stance. That's the worst thing you can do with OC as a mage on GF. It ranks just behind "do nothing" IMO. It wastes SP and it's horribly MP inefficient compared to Focus, unless you're planning to cast Regen and Arcane Focus for 25 rounds (hint: use only channeling to recast them when below 50% duration.) Obviously you should not worry about a speed difference if your concern is longevity.

I haven't used focus in a long long time. Always seemed dubious to me, since you can't evade at all when you focus.

Is the mage play style really this hard?

Sorry to butt in and correct me if I am wrong. But aren't a lot of people saying that the drain mechanics in place right now are difficult to use, and almost useless?

Just ones trying to use it as a substitute ET. MP drain can supplement regular ET some, but it's a bit pointless if you spend more MP trying to proc soul fire and drain than you get out of it. SP drain mechanic works great if you use it properly. You don't need Spirit pots at all really. Though I typically keep one in my inventory for emergencies.

You do have a point there. I never really considered scroll to be anything but "useless", due to their duration, mainly. I just don't have the focus needed to manage scrolls on top of buffs (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif). I like my movies (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif). But yeah, that's a mental slip on my part. Acknowledged.

Try it once you start taking a lot of damage. The durations aren't as awful as they used to be. I think you'll find it can get you to around round 500 "casually." (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I didn't say it was the best method, I just showed that example to make a point. See, if I played exactly like an elemental mage (blanket imperil -> melt face), then, since the pros of holy/dark is "worth the cost", as you seem to think, I should at least be able to manage as far or a little bit closer, right? And I still had to ET a ton just to get there. So no, I still stand by my point that the mana costs for Holy/Dark greatly outweighs the usefulness.

Of course, that example is rather biased, since the resistance profile does indeed favor holy/dark over elemental. However, mana costs as a con far outweighs that (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

What items are you taking? Switch to SP drain and take only Heroic mana (or elixirs I suppose, if you still have some.) If you have fully forged Mag+ armor with high stats, you should be killing almost everything in one shot after imperiling. You can purposefully leave one monster alive when you need SP. I'm assuming your Evade and SP bar are decently high. Get the Suffusive Spirit perk if you don't have it already.

I haven't used focus in a long long time. Always seemed dubious to me, since you can't evade at all when you focus.

See, there are these other long forgotten spells that make it harder or impossible for monsters to hit you...

edit:

With the recent screw up with armor potency, I have an idea:

How about instead of a bug, make it a feature that's only accessible for people who maxed forge?

Re-enable it for weapons as well.

Now you might complain that this is too unfair, but I don't think it is. See, the people who have maxed forge are very unlikely to have IW services open, thereby not really making it easier as a whole. It just makes their life easier and provide an incentive to level up the forge.

So for example, the level curve would do something like this:

Level 10 forge - 1 infusion enabled (meaning if you infuse 2 infusions on the item, one will be randomly chosen to be ignored as possible IW rewards).
Level 20 forge - 2 infusions enabled.
Level 30 forge - 3 infusions enabled.
Level 40 forge - 4 infusions enabled.
Level 45 forge - 5 infusions enabled.
Level 50 forge - 6 infusions enabled.

Also, it'd be nice to get a potency for spirit as well, to complete the trinity (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I read this thread now...

It would be nice if there was a way to get 5 capacitor on everything without being castrated by tenboro.

This post has been edited by hitokiri84: Aug 5 2013, 05:19

Is the mage play style really this hard?

Only when you're trying to eke every last bit out of it in endgame things like IWBTHFest Round 300+. It is however, definitely easier to go mage -> melee than the other way around, because of how glassy mages still are (not nearly so much as 0.75, but still rather fragile), and since you need prof for offensive spells. Elemental wins GF/IW on mana cost, Holy/Dark wins Schoolgirls by a lot on schoolgirl resist. 2H sits and wonders how on earth we struggle to finish GF, and DW/1H sit and weep for their lack of AoE. I do like that the two different setups now have distinct strengths, rather than the old Holy/Dark > Elemental in effectively all cases.

Also, mage styles before and after level 310 are dramatically different. At 310, we get Faster Imperil 3, which takes CD from 1 to 0 and targets from 2 to 3. This means that at 310, the speed at which you can Imperil things triples. Where I at 292 won't bother Imperiling the rank and file mobs because it's just not worth the hassle of the CDs, Dani or Hito can blanket a full 8-9 mob round in 3 turns, plus any recasts for resists.

This post has been edited by PK678353: Aug 5 2013, 07:17