[X] My Assistant

... 

If you want to take a crack at it, go ahead, but you'll find that the difference is much smaller than you'd like to believe given the amount of time those situations actually occur to make a difference.

And in case the difference was significant, we'd actually hear strategies about taking the utmost advantage of such. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 3 2013, 23:15

@buktore: Having chaos upgrades reduce avoidance like burden versus having them reduce avoidance like piece with negative avoidance.
@HTTP:
Avoidance will not explode with forgings any more so than PMI because it is given less per piece. I suppose the only exception is shield, but again, have to use 1h AND even then for 1h 1 piece that wins versus five pieces that lose in scaling/forge.

Old PMI formula was mix of linearly increasing and diminishing returns. Damage avoidance is far more about diminishing returns, and thus hurt far more by linear decrease, something PMI doesn't experience. more factors that affect it isn't a good thing.

Outside featherweight shards, PMI is far easier to improve by 1%. I don't think I've seen anybody boasting 90% avoidance.

Furthermore, I acknowledge that although per average damage avoidance and PMI appear similar, PMI certainly faces blow that cannot be mitigated below 100% HP while avoidance faces unlucky circumstances reducing avoidance 0. I think such variety is good for the game.

If avoidance is reduces same way it is increased there is still the difference between block and evade(burden) and parry(chaos) and resist(Hold on what is absorb spell for then?). I suppose there is the difference that 75% block(40% to land a hit with max chaos) will no longer be inferior to 50% block and 50% evade(36% to land a hit with max chaos, or 11% inferior), but parry being able to easily hold off swarms of enemies with no anti-parry while folding before monsters with lot of chaos would stay as a flavor of avoidance one would have to decide upon when assigning value.

Also, difference is not just avoidance in offhand, but prof(1h and 2h prof gives avoidance while DW does not) and PABs in there too. Plus stunning from counters for 1h.

To clarify : I have no intention to join the debate— seriously, I have a vague ideas at best of what was it about... Hence have no opinion on the matter at all— whether anyone's assumptions about these variables and other details is correct or whether those funny numbers actually mean something, I don't know, and don't really care.



I'll just shut up from now on. So please, continue. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

This post has been edited by buktore: Mar 4 2013, 00:14

To clarify : I have no intention to join the debate— seriously, I have a vague ideas at best of what was it about... Hence have no opinion on the matter at all— whether anyone's assumptions about these variables and other details is correct or whether those funny numbers actually mean something, I don't know, and don't really care.
I'll just shut up from now on. So please, continue. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Oh, please join in, we'd like to hear your opinion about the current state of things.

Oh, please join in, we'd like to hear your opinion about the current state of things.

Sadly, I can't— I don't play HV much anymore these days... (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)  Also, unless there's a large theoretical and practical gaps in performance between X and Y, I won't indulge in such sport. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/duck.gif)

I do have a general idea of what happened and what Tenb had done in the last few patch and certainly felt its impact, but that's about it...

Weapons were ethereal.

It was a nimble rapier for 1h and a mithril tower shield of the barrier

for dw it was a slaughter axe and a nimble rapier

both of these were to maximize avoidance.

2h has parry from prof already

Are you saying dualwield isn't far enough ahead or 1h isn't good enough?

I were thinking of 1h=rapier slaughter, 2h=rapier slaughter+nimble

2h doesn't kill a lot faster than dw.
main target is both is about 1+0.5+0.3*2=2.1
for dw plus offhand strike: 2.1*(1+0.5*(50%+[20%-80%]/2))=2.1*[1.3-1.4] = 2.73-2.94
for 2h plus domino spilling: (0.8*(2.1*(1+spilling*0.8))+0.2*0)/0.8 = 3.5
(0.8 is monster parry; because main target parry prevents domino)
spilling=0.75+0.6+0.4=1.75
(domino is no where near mage AoE efficiency;
you cannot practically be more efficient than targeting 12345, unless your damage is low and manually select an optimal target each time)

So 2h is only 25%-19% more damage than dw, plus a small offensive bonus of "next target is PA-ed earlier", minus a defensive bonus of 7.7-15.4% attack speed.

And I did estimation of shade+dw/2h, lv.450, mag.max rapier(slaughter/nimble) + ex.max fleet
currently avoidance is 0.267 vs. 0.352 (1.31x)
by new design it would be 0.049 vs. 0.162 (before applying monster accuracy, which is a plain multiplication)

So:
2h kills ~20-25% faster, at the cost of 3.3x defense;
dw's avoidance is over 95%, and grows fast; (try to get 95% PMI at lv.450?)

So I would say that dw is almost good enough and there is little point to improve it.
For shade I would prefer stable defense (e.g. attack speed).
I speculated that shade need 15-25% attack speed to be somewhat on par with power, however currently prefix is too rare and speed bonus is too low.

Outside featherweight shards, PMI is far easier to improve by 1%. I don't think I've seen anybody boasting 90% avoidance.

Are you serious? Offhand is >35% base-parry.
PMI vs. evade, somewhat on par. base PMI > base evade, while AGI is more effective than END.
Did you see anybody boasting 90% PMI with current patch?

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Mar 4 2013, 07:11

I'll ignore the math part of this discussion atm. One thing I'd like to point out is that Heavy users can improve EHP by gaining evasion from feather shards. Light (shade) users can't gain any advantage from feathers, and don't have anything to improve EHP. Ignoring all the other things, it seems to me that all 3 armor types should have an item that gives a temporary enchant to boost defense. How that works is a matter to be discussed, but as long as it doesn't exist; the armor types will be balanced with or without the feathers, making heavy too good with it, or even with it but requiring extra money (which wouldn't be fair).
My experience with WoW has shown that one of the best ways to balance classes is usage stats. If something is too strong, it will draw min-maxers. While people have preferences, studies have strongly shown that while individuals are hard to predict, masses are easily modeled. There is clearly a massive disparity in armor usages. MMORPGs have illustrated that you can just buff what isn't used till it is, and when usage is balanced, the game is balanced. I think since gear takes much longer to acquire in HV, there will be a much longer lag period for changes to take effect, but the process will still work.

Wow, someone doesn't know how numbers and inverse multiplicative diminishing returns work.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 4 2013, 18:55

Wow, someone doesn't know how numbers and inverse multiplicative diminishing returns work.

Fucking math, how does it work. :awesomeface:

For the fun and because that is a way of showing more love to your monsters. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I guess you could also add a little more percentage to the chance of them delivering you a gift if they say their lines, or if you get a monster to say their lines you get more exp.

And I guess it could get annoying also, so making it optional through the settings could be interesting (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose making it a chaos upgrade could be a way to implement it, or just by the monster's pl.

Well, it's an option nonetheless to add a bit more diversity to the game with players cooperation.
Thanks for your opinions and I'll faintly hope someday a monster will say me "This won't end like this! I shall return!" (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
(Finishing line or a departing line, something ressembling my idea would be nice in any case)

I would love to have my monster state "Yippee Ki Yay" or "I'll Be Back" at the end of battle (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That would be fun (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Just a gripe here.

I move that "Fair" quality gets renamed to "Decent" quality.

As in

Crude
Fair Decent
Average
Fine
Superior
Exquisite
Magnificent
Legendary

The only problem I have with "fair" is that it has the same number of letters and shares the same first letter with "fine", making it easy to confuse the two on the fly.

Just a gripe here.

I move that "Fair" quality gets renamed to "Decent" quality.

I'll second this motion.
For a newbie who hasn't learned about the wiki, it can be confusing to tell if "Fair" is above or below "Average".

"decent" sounds better than average

i'd say "discount"


ed: MAKE SHIELDING RUNES A SHRINING ITEM! EVERYTHING MUST GO!

Oh, and add Strength and Endurance to cotton armor primary stat possibilities, just because

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 5 2013, 03:06

I like "discount" as well.

I was going to suggest "common" instead of "decent" but common sounds too close to average.

EDIT: Oh, how about "passable"? Better than crude but not better than average.

DOUBLE EDIT: DarkDespair5 has suggested mediocre over the live chat, I like that. Mediocre and magnificent both start with M...

This post has been edited by Anomtai: Mar 5 2013, 04:42

I was going to suggest "common" instead of "decent" but common sounds too close to average.

EDIT: Oh, how about "passable"? Better than crude but not better than average.

DOUBLE EDIT: DarkDespair5 has suggested mediocre over the live chat, I like that. Mediocre and magnificent both start with M...

How about remove "fare" and make "crude" and average" cover a larger range?

Basic?

*surveys recent drops*
A Meh Estoc, a So-so Estoc, an Iffy Estoc, a Not Bad Estoc, a Chintzy Estoc, a Po-dunk Estoc, an Economy Estoc and a Kind of Funky Estoc. Which to choose...

an Economy Estoc

Sound like it has Mana Conservation rather then being less then average.
.
.
.

Is it weird that I think that??

This post has been edited by sigo8: Mar 5 2013, 06:38

Budget estoc then?

This post has been edited by mechafujoshi: Mar 5 2013, 08:21