[X] My Assistant

Love is in the air ♫ ♫

But why monster builders will bother to design the last words for players? (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

For the fun and because that is a way of showing more love to your monsters. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I guess you could also add a little more percentage to the chance of them delivering you a gift if they say their lines, or if you get a monster to say their lines you get more exp.

And I guess it could get annoying also, so making it optional through the settings could be interesting (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose making it a chaos upgrade could be a way to implement it, or just by the monster's pl.

Well, it's an option nonetheless to add a bit more diversity to the game with players cooperation.
Thanks for your opinions and I'll faintly hope someday a monster will say me "This won't end like this! I shall return!" (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
(Finishing line or a departing line, something ressembling my idea would be nice in any case)

This post has been edited by Ebisan: Mar 3 2013, 19:14

For the fun and because that is a way of showing more love to your monsters. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I guess you could also add a little more percentage to the chance of them delivering you a gift if they say their lines, or if you get a monster to say their lines you get more exp.

And I guess it could get annoying also, so making it optional through the settings could be interesting (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose making it a chaos upgrade could be a way to implement it, or just by the monster's pl.

Well, it's an option nonetheless to add a bit more diversity to the game with players cooperation.
Thanks for your opinions and I'll faintly hope someday a monster will say me "This won't end like this! I shall return!" (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
(Finishing line or a departing line, something ressembling my idea would be nice in any case)

I actually think that, albeit simple, it's pretty interesting. No need to give bonus exp or anything like that, though. Just a nice extra touch.

To be honest, I didn't get that table at all. I'm feeling really stupid. What are those numbers...
Some kind of 'efficiency' coefficient?

To be honest, I didn't get that table at all. I'm feeling really stupid. What are those numbers...
Some kind of 'efficiency' coefficient?

they are multipliers, the higher it is the more effective HP you have. Ie, if it is 10 and you have 1000 hp, your effective hp is 10000.

they are multipliers, the higher it is the more effective HP you have. Ie, if it is 10 and you have 1000 hp, your effective hp is 10000.

Sooo... Say, 100HP DW user in nonprefixed Plate of Protection will have 1617 effective HP while same user in Shade of Shadowdancer will have 1999 effective HP? So DW user in SoS will be better than DW user in PloP by 24%?
I'm not sure how you got those numbers, but they are interesting to look at anyway.

This post has been edited by kserox: Mar 3 2013, 20:31

Sooo... Say, 100HP DW user in nonprefixed Plate of Protection will have 1617 effective HP while same user in Shade of Shadowdancer will have 1999 effective HP? So DW user in SoS will be better than DW user in PloP by 24%?
I'm not sure how you got those numbers, but they are interesting to look at anyway.

Skillchip uses a really heavily scripted spreadsheet to model these things. It makes work and number crunching a lot easier.

Yeah, to even out the difference under the proposed change you'll need to feather the armor.

It makes Plate (a tier 1 armor) slightly inferior to a Kevlar or Shade (tier 2/3) set, instead of the current situation where Plate always is better than even high-forged light armor. Power Armor is still better when killspeed is taken to account, and with block prefix it's still much better, but rare loot should be better anyway.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 3 2013, 20:37

they are multipliers, the higher it is the more effective HP you have. Ie, if it is 10 and you have 1000 hp, your effective hp is 10000.

You'd better share a spreadsheet, instead of picture.
Looking at DW vs. 1H, your calculation is apparently wrong.

HTTP:
there's an upper limit on how much defense is useful - trading 50% damage to monsters you deal for being dealt 50% less damage benefits players with enough innate regeneration since healing is so much more powerful, on the static model it may look fine and realistically such "Defend Stance" wouldn't be particularly popular given the emphasis on speed of killing in HV. This is what I see the problem with 1h. Give it infinite survivability with enough mana regen and it still wouldn't be used much. If you meant effective HP*damage per tick in power of a build...

However, the reason why shade is considered UP is because avoidance is stacked with diminish returns yet it is reduced linearly. Consider the PMI example of 90% PMI all together after Prot- now if anti-avoidance comes along and reduces it by 10% dropping it to 81% it is x1.9 damage right there. This really kills any sort of damage avoidance build, and is the reason why shield armor of protection>shield armor of barrier and why shade and kevlar are about as valuable as elemental phase. Such things, like burden on kevlar, kill variety and builds.

Also,please post proof of math that those numbers on DW/1h are apparently wrong. Skillchip generally is rather good at math.

This post has been edited by Lement: Mar 3 2013, 21:45

Where does it look wrong HTTP? Looks ok for me. And yes, before you ask the spreadsheet I use does take into account the 50% buff from.

Is it the lines about the physical damage? Parry gets raped so PMI and block are stronger there.

Is it the lines about magical damage? Resist gets raped so block and MMI are stronger there.

Please be more specific about the wrongness you see, cause it is way to vague.

And no, I will not be sharing the spreadsheet, but you are welcome to make your own. It uses all the data you can find in the wiki. Propitiatory information, I'm sure you understand.

This post has been edited by skillchip: Mar 3 2013, 21:46

@Last words: Why not have only the last monster who dies in a round say them along with usual math? Not much clutter in battle log and keeps them from being everywhere.

@Last words: Why not have only the last monster who dies in a round say them along with usual math? Not much clutter in battle log and keeps them from being everywhere.

I'd rather have Custom Trophies with personalized Texts.

HTTP:
there's an upper limit on how much defense is useful - trading 50% damage to monsters you deal for being dealt 50% less damage benefits players with enough innate regeneration since healing is so much more powerful,

Of course.
However I was talking about how ill the design was, and it won't be nowhere near 50%/50% trade.
Avoidance will explode with more forging/level/better equip.

on the static model it may look fine and realistically such "Defend Stance" wouldn't be particularly popular given the emphasis on speed of killing in HV. This is what I see the problem with 1h. Give it infinite survivability with enough mana regen and it still wouldn't be used much. If you meant effective HP*damage per tick in power of a build...

What do you think about the old PMI formula, plus Protection, when using Plate with max END and high PMI?

However, the reason why shade is considered UP is because avoidance is stacked with diminish returns yet it is reduced linearly.

You should ask yourself a few questions and do some arithmetics yourself:
1. Why you comparing avoidance and PMI directly is meaningful;
2. How much factors can affect avoidance? DEX AGI Evade Parry Block (Prof)
How much factors can affect PMI? STR+END PMI
3. How difficult is it to improve PMI by 1%? And for avoidance?
4. There are three avoidance, parry, block and evade.
How difficult is it to improve each?
5. If avoidance is multiplied, only crunching for cheapest is good. which will kills variety and choice of avoidance equips.

Also, proof of math that those numbers on DW/1h are apparently wrong. Skillchip generally is rather good at math.

DW vs. 1H, difference is only offhand.
Offhand Rapier of Nimble vs Tower Shield: similar avoidance
1H only had a lead of lv/20% block due to prof.

Where does it look wrong HTTP? Looks ok for me. And yes, before you ask the spreadsheet I use does take into account the 50% buff from.

Is it the lines about the physical damage? Parry gets raped so PMI and block are stronger there.

Is it the lines about magical damage? Resist gets raped so block and MMI are stronger there.

Please be more specific about the wrongness you see, cause it is way to vague.

And no, I will not be sharing the spreadsheet, but you are welcome to make your own. It uses all the data you can find in the wiki. Propitiatory information, I'm sure you understand.

By new design, DW vs. 1H, Physical
Offhand Rapier of Nimble vs Tower Shield: similar avoidance
1H only had a lead of (lv/20)% block due to prof

PS: other people don't know what equips you are simulating
e.g. for DW it could be axe/club+rapier of balance, or rapier of slaughter+rapier of nimble
for 1H it could be Buckler or Tower

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Mar 3 2013, 22:15

Of course.
However I was talking about how ill the design was, and it won't be nowhere near 50%/50% trade.
Avoidance will explode with more forging/level/better equip.

Like how insane mitigation is already and how getting stronger pieces exponentiate the effect?

What do you think about the old PMI formula, plus Protection, when using Plate with max END and high PMI?
You should ask yourself a few questions and do some arithmetics yourself:
1. Why you comparing avoidance and PMI directly is meaningful;
2. How much factors can affect avoidance? DEX AGI Evade Parry Block (Prof)
How much factors can affect PMI? STR+END PMI
3. How difficult is it to improve PMI by 1%? And for avoidance?
4. There are three avoidance, parry, block and evade.
How difficult is it to improve each?
5. If avoidance is multiplied, only crunching for cheapest is good. which will kills variety and choice of avoidance equips.

1. Because they both provided the same amount of protection before Chaos upgrades. The proposal will make them equally affected (PMI by increasing critical chance against players who have little avoidance, and affects avoidance by making it more important to raise to avoid the former situation.)

2. They stack inverse-multiplicative with each other, and before Chaos upgrades, 10% PMI is equal to 10% Block. Not so in practical terms, because with current system Chaos drastically reduces the value of avoidance to the point where it's less efficient blow for blow after the first piece.
Warning: multiplication skills needed! Ask a teacher for help if you don't understand.
Example under current system:
A 10% piece of defense is added to a 40% defense attribute.
40% evade/block to 46% -> with Chaos, that's going from 32 to 36.8. (1-.32)/(1-.368) = 0.9294117647 ~-> 7% reduction in damage, instead of 10%. Evasion/block loses worth.
40% parry to 46% -> with Chaos, going from 20 to 23%. 0.9625 = 3.75% less damage taken. Why bother trying to get Parry?
40% MIT to 46%, (1-.46)/(1-.40) = 0.9. 10% reduction in damage. Mitigation does not lose worth.

3. A- WARNING: MULTIPLICATION SKILLS NEEDED! 5 pieces of 10%+ armor, and the stronger each armor piece is, the more effective each successive armor piece is. (1-(0.1))^5 is not equal to (1-(0.06*0.8))^5.
Basically, As easy as getting a plate armor of protection, and those come in generous ranges.
B- You get less of Evade compared to PMI in kevlar/plate/power protection gear, and the ranges aren't very generous.

4. Parry and Evade do not have proficiencies, and heavy's PMI gets a bonus for proficiency in the form of Crushing/Slashing/Piercing mitigations, which serve to bolster its effectiveness even more.

5.You mean it'll work the same way as PMI in that each piece is as valuable as the last. Where is the problem in that?

DW vs. 1H, difference is only offhand.
Offhand Rapier of Nimble vs Tower Shield: similar avoidance
1H only had a lead of lv/20% block due to prof.

WARNING: MULTIPLICATION SKILLS NEEDED!!!
Vs. current chaos upgrades, the parry is multiplied by 0.5 while the block is multiplied by 0.8. The effective 29% parry is down to 14.5%, while block still has 23.2%. Of course, that experiences yet another factor of diminishment after previous block sources as noted before.

Stacking an extra 29% PMI by switching to heavy, on the other hand, is superior to both because there's nothing reducing it.

1H's lead of 15% which is 15% less damage, which is 1/(1-.15) 1.17647058824 ~= 117.6% EHP. Still a decisive advantage, and that's not counting the PMI shields can get, which further benefits 1H.

With the proposed change, not only is block even more valuable, but a block value of 29% plus proficiency of 15%, is more than enough to avoid being critted, and there's no loss in getting equal amounts of PMI, Evade and Parry on top of that (as avoid to PMI always being the superior choice, which is why 2H works so well because you still get so much of it in 2H.)

Again, you have failed to point out what exactly is wrong with the proposed system.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 3 2013, 23:01

I have no idea what you guys debating about in details, but since no one mentioned these, so...

• Light use less MP than Heavy
• Specific mits
• Mobs do less damage until its HP reduced below a certain threshold (don't remember...)
• Counter can proc stun
• Skills
• Derp


Though I guess you guys probably don't really cares about these variables— just ignore me and move on then. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

Weapons were ethereal.

It was a nimble rapier for 1h and a mithril tower shield of the barrier

for dw it was a slaughter axe and a nimble rapier

both of these were to maximize avoidance.

2h has parry from prof already

Are you saying dualwield isn't far enough ahead or 1h isn't good enough?

I have no idea what you guys debating about in details, but since no one mentioned these, so...

• Light use less MP than Heavy

Mana usage is not an issue for melee (you still have several mana potions remaining as either melee at the end of a lv. 200 BT IW, and you can actually generate OC to regain almost as much mana as you use...)

• Specific mits

Heavy wins hands down due to profs alone. oops Even not taking them into account, pre-proposal heavy armor is superior in all respects to even kevlar. With the larger amount of specific mitigations granted to Heavy and the monsters that overwhelming use physical attacks, Heavy is actually much, much better than the charts suggest, though that would be too difficult to model to show an already obvious conclusion.

• Mobs do less damage until its HP reduced below a certain threshold (don't remember...)

Not much less damage (80%) and difficult to model, but the state doesn't last long enough to make much of a difference besides 1-2% border cases.

• Counter can proc stun

That's difficult to model, but in practical terms it doesn't last long enough to make a difference besides 1-2% border cases.

• Skills

Wait until Tenboro gives us a reason to use those in 2H.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 3 2013, 23:10

Mana usage is not an issue for melee (you still have several mana potions remaining as either melee at the end of a lv. 200 BT IW, and you can actually generate OC to regain almost as much mana as you use...)
Heavy wins hands down due to profs alone. Also already taken to account in spreadsheet.
Not much less damage (80%) and difficult to model, but the state doesn't last long enough to make much of a difference besides 1-2% border cases.
That's difficult to model, but in practical terms it doesn't last long enough to make a difference besides 1-2% border cases.
Wait until Tenboro gives us a reason to use those in 2H.

Specific mits were left out of the EHP values due to there needing to be some way to weight incoming damage in order to make them accurate.

- difficult to model

...