[X] My Assistant

Irrelevant. 90% of the game's damage comes from physical sources, and I was using best case scenarios for simplification. And the point was that mage suffers less total incoming damage than light armor, not the other way around.
I actually have, though outside of these forum posts because it'd be even longer than it already is (if you want large analyses, ask skillchip for those). Light armor still loses out in all respects (it has less specific mits than heavy armor) and the time to kill is still fairly bad in comparison. Even with AGI/DEX/WIS/END/other applicable stats at level for both mage and melee, with bonuses to appropriate stats by armor, you're still getting far less EHP + higher time to kill ratios than either heavy armor (either power or plate) and maging.

(skillchip has made a number of tests that have new post-patch power armor builds winning out over the average single element mage (this is why I don't frontload on one element, heh) Sure you kill about half as fast, but you take far, far less damage than maging.)

CODE

Kevlar max estoc damage: 64.78
Max mage damage: 37.38 * (1 + (6.24 + 4.74 + 5.64 + 4.44 + 5.34 + 3.85)/100) * (1 + 6.38/200) * 2.6 = 130.62
130.62 / 64.78 = 2.01 (not 2.2).

That's not the worst case for mages though. Worst case is fully chaosed + 75% resistance of the element.
130.62 * 0.8 * 0.25 = 26.12

In addition to that, mages use a lot of mana per cast, while light use next to 0 mana per hit. That mana saved can then be used towards more supportive spells, helping light survive longer.

In addition to that, mages use a lot of mana per cast, while light use next to 0 mana per hit.

So does Heavy, but light trades killing power and mitigation for a token amount of practical evade, which, after factoring in the 20% chaos penalty, really doesn't amount to all that much of a bonus over plate in terms of EHP vs. time to kill.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 1 2013, 02:35

So does Heavy, but light trades killing power and mitigation for a token amount of practical evade, which, after factoring in the 20% chaos penalty, really doesn't amount to all that much of a bonus over plate in terms of EHP vs. time to kill.

Well, we all know heavy is way too good for pretty much everything (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif), even after the recent protection "changes".

Burden and interference punishments are still too easily circumvented (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Just some images







This shows how Bunqa's proposal will effect a level 300 player, with balanced stats, in max superior gear, forged 10 levels, players fully buffed of course.

First two lines of numbers in each table is the %change that can be realized. The next two are unbuffed PMI/MMI, and the rest are effective Physical/Magical HP. First set is current, second set is proposed.

If the factor is lowered from 1.5 to 1.4, 1.33, 1.25 or some other lower number, everything would go towards being more tanky


This post has been edited by skillchip: Mar 1 2013, 03:31

skillchip: that chart is sexy. 1H and DW proportionately more survivable.

To those thinking "wauuuuuuugh light armor would actually be good i spent 40 million on this plate set GIMME A REFUND": Magical damage is only 10% of incoming damage, and in schoolgirl arenas only. In practice, it comes into play far, far less since almost every user-created monster rolls physical damage, even with some elemental skills (Celestials and Daimons come to mind).

Well, we all know heavy is way too good for pretty much everything (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif), even after the recent protection "changes".

Burden and interference punishments are still too easily circumvented (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Or largely irrelevant in burden's case.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 1 2013, 03:39

Or largely irrelevant in burden's case.

And yet I think there needs to be a grace period...

And yet I think there needs to be a grace period...

Yes, up to 30 burden would be good.

Then after that it punishes much more. Should be fun (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This shows how Bunqa's proposal will effect a level 300 player, with balanced stats, in max superior gear, forged 10 levels, players fully buffed of course.

First two lines of numbers in each table is the %change that can be realized. The next two are unbuffed PMI/MMI, and the rest are effective Physical/Magical HP.

If the factor is lowered from 1.5 to 1.4, 1.33, 1.25 or some other lower number, everything would go towards being more tanky

I think I missed it, but what was the proposed change that these charts illustrate?

I think I missed it, but what was the proposed change that these charts illustrate?

https://forums.e-hentai.org/index.php?s=&am...t&p=2474680

Oh, cool, sounds fair. I guess I like it then.

I'm fine with things that buff Light. To be honest, full Chaos taking off 50% Parry/Resist is complete bull, since it just destroys the value of those stats. I'm not fine with making mages even squishier to do it. As much as I love working with things like EHP, EHP does not factor in variance. It's rarely the round with average damage that kills you, it's the round with the skillcrit or the 7 attacks that all got past your avoidance of 50%. Nerfing Phase evade increases variance by a lot more than the pure % would appear to. Going from 50% to 45% avoidance means getting hit by all mobs in an 8 mob round twice as often (from 1/256 to approximately 1/120). Mind, moving mobs to random initiatives actually helps with that, but you're still getting poked at by everyone after a T3 spell.

By the way, Bunqa did you include T3 cast times vs. SS on weapons in your TTK calculation?

Its not just that light takes more damage, it also takes longer to clear rounds. For example, how long did your last IWBTH RE take? Mine took 109 rounds, including 8 cures.

And how much higher can light ramp up the difficulty with same mana?

Its not just that light takes more damage, it also takes longer to clear rounds. For example, how long did your last IWBTH RE take? Mine took 109 rounds, including 8 cures.

IWBTH RE, Dual-wield, 10 enemies including Lise and 501st.

101 rounds, 7 cures, 1 Spark no Heartseeker.

I'm guessing if I went 2H it would be significantly faster.

I can ramp up on IWBTH to the 50-round Arena Endgame on Light armour.

101 14 You gain 304 Credits!
101 13 You gain 2590222 EXP!
101 12 Fulradahha dropped [Godly Mana Potion]
101 11 Naruko Anjou dropped [Godly Spirit Potion]
101 10 Eila Ilmatar Juutilainen 501st dropped [3x Crystal of Frost]
101 9 Ryuuzaki Tsubasa dropped [Godly Mana Potion]
101 8 Erica Hartmann 501st dropped [Godly Mana Potion]
101 7 Hitokiri84 dropped [3x Crystal of Corruption]
101 6 Liselotte Werckmeister dropped [Fine Plate Helmet of Stoneskin]
101 5 You are Victorious!
101 4 Regen II restores 1233 points of health.
101 3 Eila Ilmatar Juutilainen 501st has been defeated.
101 2 You crit Eila Ilmatar Juutilainen 501st for 19291 void damage.
101 1 You gain 0.03 points of dual wielding proficiency.

Its not just that light takes more damage, it also takes longer to clear rounds. For example, how long did your last IWBTH RE take? Mine took 109 rounds, including 8 cures.

9 enemies, including 501st, 56 turns with 0 cures (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) . Light armor rules! Naw seriously though, we need more light armor buffs, it's still so far behind heavy (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif) .

9 enemies, including 501st, 56 turns with 0 cures (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) . Light armor rules! Naw seriously though, we need more light armor buffs, it's still so far behind heavy (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/cry.gif) .

More like we need heavy nerfs (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Obfuscation isn't challenge. It only serves to preserve and prolong bugs that could have easily been identified with system transparency such as Protection actually doubling armor defense before the flat change. Unless that's part of the challenge, you would wager. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

It's nice to have a very complex system, but you'd have to wonder how easy it is to code first. If you have worse than n log n code complexity for complexity n, you have a problem.
hitting".

Alternative:
N x Input => X Intermediate => M x Output

I'm fine with things that buff Light. To be honest, full Chaos taking off 50% Parry/Resist is complete bull, since it just destroys the value of those stats. I'm not fine with making mages even squishier to do it. As much as I love working with things like EHP, EHP does not factor in variance. It's rarely the round with average damage that kills you, it's the round with the skillcrit or the 7 attacks that all got past your avoidance of 50%. Nerfing Phase evade increases variance by a lot more than the pure % would appear to. Going from 50% to 45% avoidance means getting hit by all mobs in an 8 mob round twice as often (from 1/256 to approximately 1/120). Mind, moving mobs to random initiatives actually helps with that, but you're still getting poked at by everyone after a T3 spell.

By the way, Bunqa did you include T3 cast times vs. SS on weapons in your TTK calculation?

Parry is way too cheap to accumulate, while resist comes at a side effect of Mage/Light.
And only DW is buffed, light is practically not.

Linearly diminishing returns for every part of the system makes things easier to *gasp* balance and build upon without destroying the game system.
Currently, mage armor avoidance (evade-based) >= light armor avoidance (parry-based, thus fucked hardcore) > heavy armor avoidance. To boot, mages kill at least twice as fast as light armor melee. There is a blatantly obvious problem here.

And you can easily find a superior solution and rule out any other choice.
And mage's killing performance is most unstable, simply because mage kills fastest.
DW is most stable.
Your solution actually tends to reward high-evasion defensive builds (actually DW/Niten only), and offensive builds gain little.

My proposal would rebalance things so that [light armor avoidance > mage armor avoidance > heavy armor avoidance], which I thought was the original design. (Tenboro, feel free to correct me here.) Even with a 40% monster chance to hit for the average L250-L300 light armor user under this system, a 50% upgrade in monster hit rate is still 60%. Melee users kill slower than mages, so their bolstered defense becomes more or less level in terms of difficulty.

With my phase set with 37.7 evade and 17.1 parry, a with no chaos upgrades monster has a ~51.7% chance to hit against me ((1-(.377))(1-(.171)) = 0.516467). Currently, under the anti-whatever system, with maxed anti-parry and resist, (1-(.377*.8))(1-(.171*.5)) = 0.6386868 ~=63.9% chance to hit me. This still isn't very much.

With my proposal, my chance to be hit would skyrocket to 77.5% (.51657 * 1.5). This is hardly "seldom hitting".

At the very least anti-resist/parry needs a nerf to 1 or 1.5% per point down from 2.5%. As it stands, stacking mitigation that doesn't have effective diminishing returns (this is why even non-protection plate was superior to shield armor) and ignoring avoidance (which does due to the ridiculous amount of anti-parry/resist) all the time is the best thing you can do by far as there's conclusively no point in the game that avoidance is better than mitigation, unlike what my system would propose, which would give even small amounts of avoidance a benefit over having none at all, which is the norm for the min-maxing players.

Let me elaborate the issues, by order of signifcance IMO:

1. Magical skill is extremely unlikely to hit Mage/Shade: ridiculous(ly dull), given how rare Magical skills are;
1,5 Physical skill is unlikely to hit DW/Shade: boring, as monsters seldom use skills;

2. Avoidance works so great that PMI become pointless;

3. DW/Niten get an insane buff, while 1H becomes a complete joke.
2H is likely inferior to DW for all arena, and even so for IW/GF if 2H's damage is not sufficiently high.
By current design, Niten will reign.

4. The total value(effect) of CT upgrade is reduced, which I will strongly object to.

5. Player is buffed.
By current design, monsters are already weak.

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Mar 1 2013, 15:39

By the way, Bunqa did you include T3 cast times vs. SS on weapons in your TTK calculation?

That affects incoming damage and not player speed, so it was applied there instead of TTK.

oh boy, mr. "pls don't make my build obsolete wauuuuuuugh" is here

Alternative:
N x Input => X Intermediate => M x Output
Parry is way too cheap to accumulate, while resist comes at a side effect of Mage/Light.
And only DW is buffed, light is practically not.
And you can easily find a superior solution and rule out any other choice.
And mage's killing performance is most unstable, simply because mage kills fastest.
DW is most stable.

Intended. DW and 1H is single target, therefore should have a higher defensive ability.

Your solution actually tends to reward high-evasion defensive builds (actually DW/Niten only), and offensive builds gain little.

Non-heavy defensive builds suck in this game, mostly due to how ineffective they are in comparison to anything heavy armor. Rewarding them with *gasp* more defensive capability would make them more level.

Let me elaborate the issues, by order of signifcance IMO:

1. Magical skill is extremely unlikely to hit Mage/Shade: ridiculous(ly dull), given how rare Magical skills are;
1,5 Physical skill is unlikely to hit DW/Shade: boring, as monsters seldom use skills;

Monsters seldom use skills simply because they have a 10% chance per turn to use one, and with the reduction of action speed, of course they're using skills at a far slower rate.

2. Avoidance works so great that PMI become pointless;

Avoidance is currently pointless. How does more avoidance reduce the value of PMI? They both positively affect each other.

3. DW/Niten get an insane buff, while 1H becomes a complete joke.
2H is likely inferior to DW for all arena, and even so for IW/GF if 2H's damage is not sufficiently high.
By current design, Niten will reign.

2H is still the "no-brainer" solution, only because it takes so much less turns than both 1H and DW. Being more vulnerable would make it less boring.

So you'd rather have Niten be useless, then?

4. The total value(effect) of CT upgrade is reduced, which I will strongly object to.

WAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

5. Player is buffed.
By current design, monsters are already weak.

It's a "nerf" for the builds that are already powerful and in great use, and gives parry builds and light armor an edge. How is this a decisive buff?


I like how you addressed practically none of my arguments and used absolutely zero hard numbers to support your claim, please tell me more.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 1 2013, 15:48

5. Player is buffed.
By current design, monsters are already weak.

Just got massacred in the round one of some Hell arena.
Was so surprised, didn't even get angry.

Added: Also noticed one funny bug. Before doing arenas I removed SV from IA (to reduce mana consumption). In battle my mana falled very low and IA dissipated. After I drunk manapot, though, I got ALL my IAs restored. Not only Haste, but SV as well. Weird.

This post has been edited by kserox: Mar 1 2013, 17:23