[X] My Assistant

I'm sorry, I can't hear your whining in the midst of divine system design

Also keep in mind that you can only benefit if you have >35% parry, la~

guess its a good thing I have 36.5 % parry huh. might wanna bump up the 1.5 a little bit just so its over that

[Addendum Addendum]

In the (maybe unlikely) case that Monster Hit Rate goes above 100%, the chance over 100% gets translated as additional chance to critically hit for the monster. If you aren't getting hit more, you get hit harder.

Example: someone with 80% mitigation and 15% avoidance (85% monster hit rate) is facing off a monster with 50% Monster Hit Rate Bonus!

0.85 * 1.5 = 1.275 = 127.5% Monster Hit Rate -> 100% Monster Hit Rate, +27.5% Monster Critical Hits

So low avoidance still becomes important for mitigation, albeit in a different way. SCIENCE

Would never happen, since SV provides enough (0.8*1.2 = 0.96) to protect against that critical hit bonus.

And it would be a good idea to just convert parry and resist into block. That would be a small buff to both heavy and light, since now they will cover both magical and physical attack.

Edit: oh you're using 1.5

lol you'd need 44% evade then... all the mages will whine xD

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Feb 28 2013, 07:06

I think an easier way to do it would be to make the evade, parry, block stats additive. Give them a cap say 60% then have any figure above that reduce some of the anti-whatever.

The variety-killing design looks extremely boring and definitely the wrong direction.

HV is not a mathematic model.
IMO it is crucial to keep the system somewhat verbose, messy, chaotic and unreasonable.

If certain input (equip Acc/monster Acc CT upgrade) is not useful, make it affect some more outputs.

BTW players' avoidance can be very high.
By the new design monsters will seldom hit.

This post has been edited by HTTP/308: Feb 28 2013, 07:46

The variety-killing design looks extremely boring and definitely the wrong direction.

HV is not a mathematic model.
IMO it is crucial to keep the system somewhat verbose, messy, chaotic and unreasonable.

If certain input (equip Acc/monster Acc CT upgrade) is not useful, make it affect some more outputs.

BTW players' avoidance can be very high.
By the new design monsters will seldom hit.

Not to mention that model shafts the low and mid level players with average equips hard. They are already finding it harder now that the high pl monsters are showing up earlier, the high level monsters would almost all be having 100% hit chance and 25% bonus crit chance to them.....

Not to mention that model shafts the low and mid level players with average equips hard. They are already finding it harder now that the high pl monsters are showing up earlier, the high level monsters would almost all be having 100% hit chance and 25% bonus crit chance to them.....

Well the higher level peeps are complaining that the game is min-maxing
The low/mid level peeps are complaining that the game is maxi-maxing
It's like the "we are the 99% / 1%" all over again. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by holy_demon: Feb 28 2013, 09:57

I think we should have two quickbar slots available, especially spells.

And for meleeing we lack of skills to apply to quickcast.. Melee only got 3 skills which is achieved with great tolls (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Tip: read the first post...

You're forgetting that melees make much better use of focus and stance. And mages only have the options of blast, blast harder and sacrifice most damage to blast against different specific mit. Oh yeah, imperil too. Though melees have that too, so not really for mages solo....

This post has been edited by Lement: Feb 28 2013, 10:08

Tip: read the first post...

You're forgetting that melees make much better use of focus and stance. And mages only have the options of blast, blast harder and sacrifice most damage to blast against different specific mit. Oh yeah, imperil too. Though melees have that too, so not really for mages solo....

Melees have PA + void, both naturally occurring, way better than imperil.

PA + void = Imperil x4, so...

The variety-killing design looks extremely boring and definitely the wrong direction.

HV is not a mathematic model.
IMO it is crucial to keep the system somewhat verbose, messy, chaotic and unreasonable.

Obfuscation isn't challenge. It only serves to preserve and prolong bugs that could have easily been identified with system transparency such as Protection actually doubling armor defense before the flat change. Unless that's part of the challenge, you would wager. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

It's nice to have a very complex system, but you'd have to wonder how easy it is to code first. If you have worse than n log n code complexity for complexity n, you have a problem.

Linearly diminishing returns for every part of the system makes things easier to *gasp* balance and build upon without destroying the game system.

If certain input (equip Acc/monster Acc CT upgrade) is not useful, make it affect some more outputs.

BTW players' avoidance can be very high.
By the new design monsters will seldom hit.

Currently, mage armor avoidance (evade-based) >= light armor avoidance (parry-based, thus fucked hardcore) > heavy armor avoidance. To boot, mages kill at least twice as fast as light armor melee. There is a blatantly obvious problem here.

My proposal would rebalance things so that [light armor avoidance > mage armor avoidance > heavy armor avoidance], which I thought was the original design. (Tenboro, feel free to correct me here.) Even with a 40% monster chance to hit for the average L250-L300 light armor user under this system, a 50% upgrade in monster hit rate is still 60%. Melee users kill slower than mages, so their bolstered defense becomes more or less level in terms of difficulty.

With my phase set with 37.7 evade and 17.1 parry, a with no chaos upgrades monster has a ~51.7% chance to hit against me ((1-(.377))(1-(.171)) = 0.516467). Currently, under the anti-whatever system, with maxed anti-parry and resist, (1-(.377*.8))(1-(.171*.5)) = 0.6386868 ~=63.9% chance to hit me. This still isn't very much.

With my proposal, my chance to be hit would skyrocket to 77.5% (.51657 * 1.5). This is hardly "seldom hitting".

At the very least anti-resist/parry needs a nerf to 1 or 1.5% per point down from 2.5%. As it stands, stacking mitigation that doesn't have effective diminishing returns (this is why even non-protection plate was superior to shield armor) and ignoring avoidance (which does due to the ridiculous amount of anti-parry/resist) all the time is the best thing you can do by far as there's conclusively no point in the game that avoidance is better than mitigation, unlike what my system would propose, which would give even small amounts of avoidance a benefit over having none at all, which is the norm for the min-maxing players.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 28 2013, 16:07

Obfuscation isn't challenge. It's nice to have a very complex system, but you'd have to wonder how easy it is to code first. If you have complexity n < n log n code complexity, you have a problem.

Linearly diminishing returns for every part of the system makes things easier to *gasp* balance and build upon without destroying the game system.
Currently, mage armor avoidance (evade-based) >= light armor avoidance (parry-based, thus fucked hardcore) > heavy armor avoidance. There is a problem here.

My proposal would rebalance things so that [light armor avoidance > mage armor avoidance > heavy armor avoidance]. Which I thought was the original design, tenboro feel free to correct me here. Even with a 40% monster chance to hit for the average L250-L300 light armor user under this system, a 50% upgrade in monster hit rate is still 60%.

At the very least anti-resist/parry needs a nerf to 1 or 1.5% per point down from 2.5%. As it stands, stacking mitigation that doesn't have effective diminishing returns (this is why even non-protection plate was superior to shield armor) and ignoring avoidance (which does due to the ridiculous amount of anti-parry/resist) all the time is the best thing you can do by far as there's conclusively no point in the game that avoidance is better than mitigation, unlike what my system would propose, which would give even small amounts of avoidance a benefit over having none at all, which is the norm for the min-maxing players.

Wait what?

Why would Light armor, with higher every other defensive stats, need to have higher avoidance than Cloth?

That just makes no sense.

Wait what?

Why would Light armor, with higher every other defensive stats, need to have higher avoidance than Cloth?

That just makes no sense.

You have to make at least 2.2x the amount of attacks against enemies as a melee, which means 2.2x incoming damage. If your effective chance to be hit is only 20% lower than the mage (EHP factor: (1/0.8) = 1.25), and you only have a 20% time-to-live advantage (EHP factor 1.2 * 1.25 = 1.5, which is less than 2.2x incoming damage) by mitigation over a cloth user that actually bothered to level Endurance, you're at a disadvantage.

If course, you could mage as a light armor user, but after the upcoming change you'd be losing even more of the damage bonus and still lose out vs. the cloth wearer in effective HP vs. incoming damage. *fart*

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 28 2013, 16:13

You have to make at least 2.2x the amount of attacks against enemies as a melee, which means 2.2x incoming damage. If your effective chance to be hit is only 20% lower than the mage (EHP factor: (1/0.8) = 1.25), and you only have a 20% time-to-live advantage (EHP factor 1.2 * 1.25 = 1.5, which is less than 2.2x incoming damage) by mitigation over a cloth user that actually bothered to level Endurance, you're at a disadvantage.

If course, you could mage as a light armor user, but after the upcoming change you'd be losing even more of the damage bonus and still lose out vs. the cloth wearer in effective HP vs. incoming damage. *fart*

You don't actually factor in the difference in mitigation, do you...

You don't actually factor in the difference in mitigation, do you...

I do. You still lose out unless you have near-maximum rolls in physical mitigation for each piece, and that in itself is kind of a tall order and not much of a benefit per investment compared to maging, and you're not supposed to be balancing solely around things like that.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 28 2013, 17:21

I do. You still lose out unless you have near-maximum rolls in physical mitigation for each piece, and that in itself is kind of a tall order and not much of a benefit per investment compared to maging, and you're not supposed to be balancing solely around things like that.

What figures did you use for mage's items? Because AFAIK good kevlars are more common compared to good phases.

request again

impartial Overcharge gain per hits

or change Spirit Stance random costs 5-10%

What figures did you use for mage's items? Because AFAIK good kevlars are more common compared to good phases.

For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to use the base level 0 values to calculate EHP. The scaling doesn't affect much for all of these, so you're going to get like a 15% gain in all factors when leveling up to 300. Big fucking deal there.

CODE

Phase PMIT
2.7
    .027
3.12
    .0312
2.49
    .0249
2.91
    .0291
2.28
    .0228

MaxPMIT Base:
(1-((1-.027)(1-.0312)(1-.0249)(1-.0291)(1-.0228))) * 100
12.7924498808

Phase Evade
4.22
    .0422
4.97
    .0497
3.72
    .0372
4.72
    .0472
3.47
    .0347

MaxEvade Base:
(1-((1-.0422)(1-.0497)(1-.0372)(1-.0472)(1-.0347))) * 100
19.3998781734

Total EHP Multiplier:
1/((1-.127924498808)(1-.193998781734))

1.42268979244
let's round this to 1.42 to make this calculation easier.

Total EHP Multiplier with let's say, 15% Parry:
1/((1-.127924498808)(1-.193998781734)(1-.15))
1.67375269698
round this to 1.67.

Total EHP Multiplier vs. Chaos Upgraded Monster (this won't happen at level 0, but nonetheless, still worth a looksie.)
1/((1-.127924498808)(1-(.193998781734*.80))(1-(.15*.50)))
1.46740425756
round this to 1.47.

EHPBase: 1.42
EHPParry: 1.67
EHPParryvsChaos: 1.47
TTK: 1 as benchmark.


Kevlar PMIT
8.79
    .0879
10.47
    .1047
7.95
    .0795
9.63
    .0963
7.11
    .0711

Max PMIT Base:
(1-((1-.0879)(1-.1047)(1-.0795)(1-.0963)(1-.0711))) * 100
36.9001861238


Kevlar Evade
1.97
    .0197
2.22
    .0222
1.72
    .0172
2.22
    .0222
1.72
    .0172

Max Evade Base (assumes feather):
(1-((1-.0197)(1-.0222)(1-.0172)(1-.0222)(1-.0172))) * 100
9.47065792974

Total EHP Multiplier before factors:
1/((1-.369001861238)(1-.0947065792974))
1.7505823993
round to 1.75x EHP.

Since that would be higher for light armor users due to the DEX and 2H parry prof, let's assume 40% Parry.
Total EHP Multiplier with Parry 40%:
1/((1-.369001861238)(1-.0947065792974)(1-.40))
2.91763733216x
round to 2.92x EHP.

This doesn't sound too bad, but this assumes we're fighting against un-chaosed monsters. Let's apply Chaos, shall we?
Total EHP Multiplier with Parry 40% vs. Chaos:
1/((1-.369001861238)(1-(.0947065792974*.80))(1-(.40*.50))
2.1433823381
round to 2.14x EHP. Ouch.

Now....

Since a full Kevlar set has less ADB, let's be generous and say, 20% less than Shade, though the effective difference is often smaller in practice.
TTK ~= 2.2 / 0.8 = 2.75

Now, we divide EHP by time to kill.

2.14/2.75, which is below 1.47/1.
Per point of damage you dealing vs. points of damage you are taking in comparison to Example Mage User, you deal 0.52937538651x as much damage per hit points you are losing. That's 1.89 times the amount of total incoming damage compared to a mage.
This is an obvious fucking disadvantage, since most of the loss comes from lost Parry.


Shade PMIT
5.43
    .0543
6.48
    .0648
5.01
    .0501
6.06
    .0606
4.38
    .0438

Max PMIT Base:
(1-((1-.0543)(1-.0648)(1-.0501)(1-.0606)(1-.0438))) * 100
24.5368256026


Shade Evade (Shadowdancer)
4.97
    .0497
5.97
    .0597
4.47
    .0447
5.47
    .0547
3.97
    .0397

Max Evade Base:
(1-((1-.0497)(1-.0597)(1-.0447)(1-.0547)(1-.0397))) * 100
22.5103802306

Total EHP Multiplier before factors:
1/((1-.245368256026)(1-.225103802306))
1.71009957893
round to 1.71x EHP.

Total EHP Multiplier with 40% Parry:
1/((1-.245368256026)(1-.225103802306)(1-.40))
2.85016596488
round to 2.85x EHP. Not bad, but...

Total EHP Multiplier with 40% Parry vs. Chaos upgrades:
1/((1-.245368256026)(1-(.225103802306*.80))(1-(.40*.50)))
2.02024980732
round to 2.02x EHP. Owww.

TTK: 2.2x as much as a mage. This is being generous, in practice it's actually less favorable (up to 3.5x, even).

EHP divided by TTK divided by EHP/TTK for phase and mage yields:

(2.02/2.2)/(1.47/1) = 0.62461348175. Invert that, and you get 1.6x the amount of total incoming damage versus maging.

1.89x total incoming damage with kevlar? 1.6x total incoming damage with shade armor? Even if you add scaling, it still screams utter horse shit.

You say this is reasonable and balanced? Even if you mix sets, you're only going to get something in between which is still less effective than a mage set or a Big Mitigation heavy armor set that can also have much better damage modifiers through power armor, trading a small amount of protection for approx. 3% more damage per piece and as a result kills faster than light armor. You'd be hard pressed to say light armor is more than a recreational option at this point.

I do know I didn't count END in, but with how stat builds are, you're only going to see a 10% mitigation difference from that at most. Tell me what in this would where a 10% difference could turn over a 89% or 60% disparity.


Tangential: remove burden from all weapons and replace shade ADB with an EDB-like percentage damage bonus.

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Feb 28 2013, 19:11

Well, realistically, mage is hardly going to gun for max PMI - mage will gun for max INT, WIS, EDB and then pays some attention to evade and additional PABs while completely ignoring magical mit, accuracy and PMIt, while kevlar/shade user ignores stats such as magical mitigation, accuracy, resist and probably smack of interference and INT PAB as well. This skews mage taking more damage than would be expected from defensive build.

I also think that it's not fair to discount additional PABs - as a mage I get more than my level INT and WIS from them, while roughly half of level DEX and AGI. Iirc Shade/kevlar had 30% worse than INT/WIS max than phase for rolls, so them getting little under double level for the more important stats isn't a stretch in increasing their defensive capacities.

This defensive boost helps Regen II cover far bigger % of damage I guess, as well as natural MP regen.

Finally, you're completely discounting specific mits(crush, slash, pierce). They're pretty darn significant.

But I agree that chaos tokens kind of screw over parry-based defenses. But parry is in far better state than resist, which light focuses on, so there's that.

This post has been edited by Lement: Feb 28 2013, 21:40

Don't worry, most people can't do math or reach logical conclusions. Thoughts ends with "DON'T NERF ME," and "I DESERVE A REFUND."

Well, realistically, mage is hardly going to gun for max PMI - mage will gun for max INT, WIS, EDB and then pays some attention to evade and additional PABs while completely ignoring magical mit, accuracy and PMIt, while kevlar/shade user ignores stats such as magical mitigation, accuracy, resist and probably smack of interference and INT PAB as well. This skews mage taking more damage than would be expected from defensive build.

Irrelevant. 90% of the game's damage comes from physical sources, and I was using best case scenarios for simplification. And the point was that mage suffers less total incoming damage than light armor, not the other way around.

I also think that it's not fair to discount additional PABs - as a mage I get more than my level INT and WIS from them, while roughly half of level DEX and AGI. Iirc Shade/kevlar had 30% worse than INT/WIS max than phase for rolls, so them getting little under double level for the more important stats isn't a stretch in increasing their defensive capacities.

This defensive boost helps Regen II cover far bigger % of damage I guess, as well as natural MP regen.

Finally, you're completely discounting specific mits(crush, slash, pierce). They're pretty darn significant.

But I agree that chaos tokens kind of screw over parry-based defenses. But parry is in far better state than resist, which light focuses on, so there's that.

I actually have, though outside of these forum posts because it'd be even longer than it already is (if you want large analyses, ask skillchip for those). Light armor still loses out in all respects (it has less specific mits than heavy armor) and the time to kill is still fairly bad in comparison. Even with AGI/DEX/WIS/END/other applicable stats at level for both mage and melee, with bonuses to appropriate stats by armor, you're still getting far less EHP + higher time to kill ratios than either heavy armor (either power or plate) and maging.

(skillchip has made a number of tests that have new post-patch power armor builds winning out over the average single element mage (this is why I don't frontload on one element, heh) Sure you kill about half as fast, but you take far, far less damage than maging.)

This post has been edited by Bunker Buster: Mar 1 2013, 00:27