[X] My Assistant

So I was looking at my abilities dealy, and I noticed that with a fairly low amount of ability boost I can get all the skills I could possibly think of wanting as a melee build. While if I wanted to go magic build it'd take noticeably more ability points to get all the available, useful skills. To show it more mathematically, for every line in my abilities tree I have:

3 hp boost + 3 exp boost + 3 spirit boost(to get to the overcharge) + 5 overcharge boost + 1 item/aura slot = 15 abilities

for mages:

3 hp boost + 3 exp boost + 1 item/aura slot + 1 starting spell + 5 AoE spell + 5 rating boost + 5 status spell + 1/2 for those every over row spells off to the side = 23.5 abilities

That's about 8 more abilities every 10 levels.

I can understand that it's probably intended to make a mage build pick and choose which spells they want, and which they'll drop, but then shouldn't a melee fighter have to do some picking and choosing as well?

To be fair I don't really have suggestions for melee abilities that should be added, just that perhaps there could be some to make us melee type have to pick and choose like the casters do.

Melee types want MP tanks too.

We need to use magic too.

Also many depreciating spells too, and the cure/regen/shields that pop up.

Aside from that SP boost + overcharge is expensive for the gains...

Ugh, no wai. All you need is cure. As for the overcharge, every level of boost is 2% more melee damage. Which puts me at a comfortable 60% damage boost right now, which means I 2 shot any normal mob I run into. Never use a shield, regen, or depreciating spell, though I used sleep a bit before grindfest existed. As it stands, I manage 50+ rounds of grindfest easily every time. I'd throw some into MP if I had spare points, but I've got pretty much exactly what I need with the overcharge point-wise.

Well yeah I was the same until I started hitting Power Flux and Killzone, and bosses + legendaries. Started to need way too many high quality mana draughts.

I have 70% damage boost (once it's chareged up)

I could get an extra 40% if I took AP out of my magic spells, that would be all of them I have yet to fill.

I'd still have the MP tanks though.

I'd much rather have the tanks and those spells: Poison, Weaken, Absorb, Bewilder. And Cure, Regen and Shield, Cure II now I think.

I'm going to get spark of life now, need it for legendaries I think. This new rank is going to take some of those OC boosts away.

But yeah I can see you being a bit unsatified if you don't want to put points into MP tanks at least... But srly! You need that at least even if you don't want the spells.

So 18 vrs. 23, and yeah mages have to pick and choose their spells, and many don't go for the tier 1 spells when the have tier 2 ones avaliable.

Actually, despite my basically fighter build, I started maximizing my MP tanks when I realized that magic points for Cure were never enough ^^"

Also, I found Shield to be a cheaper alternative to sheer Cure, and Weaken, though rarely used, can be a lifesaver, so while going for the melee, I still try to keep Interference as low as possible, and keep INT and WIS just slightly under the other abilities.

3 hp boost + 3 exp boost + 1 item/aura slot + 1 starting spell + 5 AoE spell + 5 rating boost + 5 status spell + 1/2 for those every over row spells off to the side = 23.5 abilities

+ 3 MP boost = 26.5
Mages don't need MP?

and

3 hp boost + 3 exp boost + 3 spirit boost(to get to the overcharge) + 5 overcharge boost + 1 item/aura slot = 15 abilities

+ 3 MP boost + 1/2 for those every over row spells off to the side = 18.5
Melee types NEED mp and Cure/Shield/etc. I know I take mp boost over sp. It's more useful in Grinds and Item World.

For the most part casters really don' t need to get all the spells available to them, so it does balance out a bit... Most people are picking up HP and MP tanks regardless of build, and the supportive and depreciating spells are pretty equally useful/useless for either fighter or caster. The only major difference is sp tank+ overcharge verses spell, aoe, and rating so its 8 verses 11. So really there is a slight imbalance, but at the same time you really don't need to sink 11 points into T1 when you have T2/3 available. Anyway when your up around 150+ you really have more points then you need regardless of build.

This post has been edited by uth: Dec 28 2009, 16:13

Even if you take full mp boost as melee vs. only taking half the spells available as a caster you're still looking at a significant difference in point costs.

I have a melee build and I'm currently taking all HP, MP, SP, Overcharge and the item slots, which means 14.5 slots I'm always going to take for every 10 levels. Plus, any good spell, such as Cure, Shield and Weaken, maxed up of course. The EXP tanks, on the other hand, are not that important, especially when the cost of an ability point grows this fast. (IMG:[invalid] style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

sorry to ask this question here but is the overcharge not only for the Spirit attack? or will it really power up your normal attacks when the bar is full? O.O!

Assuming that mages do not need SP tanks, I would say the difference is 3 (8 for SP+Overcharge vs 11 for the magic). And some of that difference can be justified in that the increased magic ratings are worth more than the overcharge boost (they give a straight +% to damage while overcharge gives a +1/2% bonus. They also give a +1/2% bonus to mitigation).

while sp tanks and overcharge can be useful for casters, just for melee in small groups or stragglers. It's really one of those things you grab after you have your main stuff, like spells are for melee. Assuming all you do is cast you'd never build up overcharge anyway. Unfortunately you really can't get away with just casting cause your mana will never be able to keep up. Which is why I think casters still need tweaking.

I can understand that it's probably intended to make a mage build pick and choose which spells they want, and which they'll drop, but then shouldn't a melee fighter have to do some picking and choosing as well?

To be fair I don't really have suggestions for melee abilities that should be added, just that perhaps there could be some to make us melee type have to pick and choose like the casters do.

Honestly, I always thought that melee fighting was meant to be more straightforward and streamlined: less thinking, or at least less picking and choosing. You just go in and start smashing heads, casting Cure when you need it and steamrolling anything big with your Spirit Attack. That got me through the early levels and Arenas.

I switched to magic because I wanted to hit several monsters at once without the low accuracy of a 2H weapon. And maybe I'm not a typical mage, but I don't feel like I have to have every spell out there. My focus is primarily on the spells that actually do damage, and if I have extra AP, I might add a few points to improve elemental ratings. Other than that, the only spells I use are Weaken and Bewilder.

For bosses, however, I increasingly find myself mixing melee with magic. My Abilities are still that of a mage, but most of the equipment is a melee build (just with no heavy armor, that would mean interference). The other day I came across Manbearpig in IW as a mage, and while I did win, it took way too long, and cost too many mana items. On the other hand, if I'd had a rapier with PA, the damage on pretty much everything would've been increased. So even if you do decide to go with melee, a little magic support can do wonders.

Honestly, I always thought that melee fighting was meant to be more straightforward and streamlined: less thinking, or at least less picking and choosing. You just go in and start smashing heads, casting Cure when you need it and steamrolling anything big with your Spirit Attack. That got me through the early levels and Arenas.

I switched to magic because I wanted to hit several monsters at once without the low accuracy of a 2H weapon. And maybe I'm not a typical mage, but I don't feel like I have to have every spell out there. My focus is primarily on the spells that actually do damage, and if I have extra AP, I might add a few points to improve elemental ratings. Other than that, the only spells I use are Weaken and Bewilder.

For bosses, however, I increasingly find myself mixing melee with magic. My Abilities are still that of a mage, but most of the equipment is a melee build (just with no heavy armor, that would mean interference). The other day I came across Manbearpig in IW as a mage, and while I did win, it took way too long, and cost too many mana items. On the other hand, if I'd had a rapier with PA, the damage on pretty much everything would've been increased. So even if you do decide to go with melee, a little magic support can do wonders.

Really IMO the best weapon combo for a caster is probably a battlecaster rapier, and a shield, hell even dual battlecaster weps, would probably be better then a staff....the extra proficiency just doesn't make up for the complete suck of coalesced and ET, namely how hard it is to get them to proc at useful times.

Really IMO the best weapon combo for a caster is probably a battlecaster rapier, and a shield, hell even dual battlecaster weps, would probably be better then a staff....the extra proficiency just doesn't make up for the complete suck of coalesced and ET, namely how hard it is to get them to proc at useful times.

True enough, rapiers do wonders thank to the imbaish Penterated Armor status. If there wewre spell that could prock that, I would be most happy.
But, to be fair, Coalesced Mana also can be more than pretty handy. Then i sticks, that is. ET, on other hand... Well, nice little bonus, but nothing more. If only it would not require poking coalesced enemy with the walking stick... Or would not replace Coalesced Mana...

Anyway, I believe, mages now are pretty powerful, especially compared with pre-Rise times.

This post has been edited by hen_Z: Dec 29 2009, 12:12

True enough, rapiers do wonders thank to the imbaish Penterated Armor status. If there wewre spell that could prock that, I would be most happy.
But, to be fair, Coalesced Mana also can be more than pretty handy. Then i sticks, that is. ET, on other hand... Well, nice little bonus, but nothing more. If only it would not require poking coalesced enemy with the walking stick... Or would not replace Coalesced Mana...

Anyway, I believe, mages now are pretty powerful, especially compared with pre-Rise times.

It was mentioned before that magic missiles should get changed to add a chance to proc PA which would be pretty sweet, hell even making it an ability would work. I'd really like to see magic missiles get changed to be a caster form of "melee" ie you use magic missles instead of swinging your stick. The mana cost would need to be greatly reduced, and you would probably need some kind of stipulation that you can only use it when a staff is equipped. But some kind of PA attached to it would definitely make fighting bosses easier on casters. I suppose just increasing the amount that the holy proc decreases defense would work too, since right now its basically negligible.

I just want to chime in and mention that Haste is an enormously powerful spell. With 3 ranks in Innate Arcana, it costs me only 1/2 MP per turn to maintain, and effectively reduces my damage taken by 20%. Since I'm attacking faster, monsters get less chances to attack me before they die, reducing my damage taken in the long run, and saving me mana. Even before I got Innate Arcana, I found all my longer arenas to be considerably easier with Haste cast at the beginning of each round.

Also, anyone who's not using Shield is insane. Against groups of monsters, it gets increasingly more mana efficient than all healing spells as your level rises, especially with low avoidance. Hell, even with my 19% evade and 30% parry, it's still better than my 50 HP/turn Regen. My proficiencies are fairly balanced, and Shield blocks 24.5 damage per attack. That means that just 2 (out of 9) attacks need to hit me each turn, and be reduced by Shield, to match Regen's healing (and Shield's going to be affecting at least 4 attacks per turn). Regen is ~2.5 times as mana efficient as Cure, which puts Shield at about 5 times higher mana efficiency. Shield has not left my auto-cast bar since the day I bought Innate Arcana I, and I doubt it ever will.

Finally, low level folks (not you insanely well-geared 100+ers) who ignore weaken are making a mistake. The amount of damage that weakening minibosses prevents is far higher than the relative cost of Cures and Regens to heal it. It also makes it a lot less likely that you'll die to a surprise crit (losing your arena entry fee), since Weaken prevents the target from critting physical attacks.

Also, anyone who's not using Shield is insane.

I must be insane since I don't used it. Then again I've always found it to be trash since it only absorbs instead of mitigates. Absorbing 60-90 points is pointless if you're being hit for 600-2000. That being said, Shield and Barrier should be changed to mitigation so they are more balanced across all levels.

I must be insane since I don't used it.

I don't use it, either, and haven't for a long time.

Oooh, Hito, we should hook up and have a forum bromance.

I must be insane since I don't used it. Then again I've always found it to be trash since it only absorbs instead of mitigates. Absorbing 60-90 points is pointless if you're being hit for 600-2000. That being said, Shield and Barrier should be changed to mitigation so they are more balanced across all levels.

Things are obviously different for low level people than high level people. Of course 60 absorbed from 600 is equal to a 10% mitigation and I'm not sure how much more you would get from Shield even if it gave mitigation. And couldn't one say that Shadow Veil is the functional equivalent of physical mitigation? If SV gives me 16.8% evasion, I assume my physical damage will be reduced by 16.8% in the long run.