[X] My Assistant

What weapon were you using, out of interest? I wonder if the bleed chance from a weapon proc is included in the calculation for some reason. (As far as I know it doesn't trigger other procs, but I can't say I've looked that closely.)

Rapier, the bleed should only come from Vital Strike

I've been comfortably doing PFUDOR since before that level, without using Weaken or Spirit Shield at all. I think you might just be either mismanaging your gear, or at the very least, very very unlucky with your drops to not have any useful exquisites yet.

I didn't get very good drops. Quite a bit is from the bazaar. My first noodles went to a shield. Ended up a mag kite shield, which is better than nothing, but yeah. The plate armor was bad, and the power armor even worse.
Isekai is really just about getting by with whatever the bazaar and drops give you.

But yeah, it could very well be higher than 50/50, that's just my experience with it.

It's probably higher, because of crit = bleed, like with normal weapon procs. It's hard to say what the actual non crit bleed rate is. 50/50 might very well be true. It's 50% bleed damage.. so maybe.
Let's just say I don't think I've ever seen a crit Vital Strike that didn't bleed, so there's at least that.


edit: I just tested 2h @pfudor, the 25 round arena.

A random check of 1h: 474turns
2h mace without upgrades: 702turns

So first of all: Doable. However unfortunately you get forced into needing to use cure too often. Probably because monster lab offers both accuracy AND evade ignore for monsters, and evasion isn't as good as block.

Comparison of stats:
1h vs 2h
8426 abd vs 5828 abd
191.8% hit vs 179.8% hit
42.8% crit vs 42.2% crit
2% speed vs 32% speed
28245 health vs 21105 health
1745magic vs 1802 magic
1404spirit vs 1296 spirit
77.2% phys mit vs 69.4 phys mit
71% magic mit vs 62.7 magic mit
39.7% crush vs 25.1% crush
49.6% slash vs 24.8% slash
48.8% pierce vs 0% pierce
3.2% evade vs 52.8% evade (+shadow veil so.. 64.6% evade effectively)
64.4% block vs 0% block
57.7% parry vs 37.9% parry
17.4% resist vs 68.8% resist

If we look at those stats, 2h is obviously taking more physical damage, and has more trouble ignoring it, too. In exchange it should be very rare for magic to fully hit. Although depending on the type, even a single resist trigger could not be enough to mitigate enough to keep up with 1h's superior mitigation. (are there "physical" spells? I never actually paid attention if "spells" could be crush, slash or piercing damage for monsters)
Attack damage of 1h is 44.5% more, all the while 2h needed 48% more turns.

And with that the experiment ends. It basically said what people figured out already. When you just start out in Isekai, low level, 2h performs really well. But much later in the game, you have way too tanky enemies. Not even 2h's Shatter Strike can keep up with that. I used a little bit of imperil as well, but with its miss-rate, you have to spend a lot of turns, as even just missing one enemy takes quite a long time. Or rather, that's where 2h sucks at anyway, single enemies being beefy.
Being adamant with Imperil can probably shave off a few turns, but I seriously doubt that it'd be enough to make 2h worthwhile. Doubly so because I COULD do that with 1h as well after all. (and it'd help reduce turns, but probably cost more actual time)

I don't think even gear upgrades can mitigate this. It'd help, yes. Especially getting hitrate to a better value, getting some more evasion (though most evasion comes from stats) and obviously attack. But given that the idea was that 2h ideally performs better than 1h against relatively big amounts of normal enemies, that feels unlikely, even with heavily upgraded and good gear. The market price difference for upgrades of shade vs. power isn't limiting power armor enough to make a big enough difference. To be fair, you also get shade much cheaper in auctions, so that'd be a "free" 30-50 or so levels of ADB raising, compared to a power of slaughter piece.
But in the end, even fully upgrading ADB of all gear I have right now would not make 2h better. The turn difference and time difference is too big.

2h really needs love. It's definitely "playable", with a good set of gear assembled, but 1h is playable way earlier, can handle school girl arenas without issues and it feels like there's literally no disadvantage compared to 2h in any way. 2h could still have a weird niche in low difficulty play. I'm trying that in Isekai. Unfortunately I only have a Katana. For that you'd ideally want an Estoc.. I think. Especially before level 310.

This post has been edited by killi890: Jan 1 2022, 10:29

Wrong stuff was here once.

This post has been edited by killi890: Jan 19 2022, 11:39

Noni edit: this thread is for research: calculations & experiments with sufficient scale. Please use other threads for (casual) theory crafting etc

This post has been edited by Noni: Feb 2 2022, 08:44

I've tracked for interval of new riddlemaster

first : 2~5, 21~101 round
next : +20~100 round

the distribution of rounds for two riddlemaster is seems to uniform, as like as old riddlemaster.

We know about arcane score for comparing mage builds. Even better is looking at the mitigation 75% score vs maximum monster resist (for fests) or the appropriate row vs schoolgirl (for sg arenas), since that takes into account prof factor and counter-resist. However, in fests dealing consistent damage is also important. I propose another metric I call min9 score for comparing mage builds for festing, based on the expected amount of damage dealt to the least damaged monster out of nine monsters after one spell. The assumption here is that speed of clearing a round is primarily based on the result of one T3 spell.

(Math warning)

My inspiration came from [math.stackexchange.com] this page about expected maximum dice roll when rolling multiple dice. In HV, there are eight possible outcomes for damage: 2 for crit (crit or no crit) multiplied by 4 for resist (resist 0, 50, 75, or 90), and with current crit chance ranges they always follow the same order of damage dealt:

no crit resist 90 < crit resist 90 < no crit resist 75 < crit resist 75 < no crit resist 50 < crit resist 50 < no crit resist 0 < crit resist 0.

(It's straightforward enough to calculate the probability and damage for each outcome.) Number these outcomes 1-8 in order of damage, and let d1, d2,..., d8 be the additional damage dealt over the next lowest outcome. Like with the dice example, let Xmin be the minimum outcome among 9 rolls, and let Xi for i=1,2,...8 be the random variable whose value is 1 if Xmin≥Xi and 0 otherwise. Here, Xmin equals the sum of Xi*di over i=1,2,...8. By a similar argument to the dice problem, the expected value of Xmin equals the sum of P(Xmin≥i)*di over i=1,2,...8, each of which we can calculate fairly easily.

(End math warning)

So how does this work out in practice? Since we already know willow >>> redwood for imperil fests, I calculated these min9 scores for my (terrible) nonimperil cold mage with willow and redwood. Since nonimperil cold is bad, I only used equipment I already have forged to some degree, namely prof shoes and pants, charged phase hat and radiant phase robe and gloves. To make up for the bad equipment, I lowered the difficulty (I did account for reduced monster resist chance) and played on cold day. Here are my results:



The redwood has higher average damage, but the willow had similar min9, suggesting it might perform as well if I had enough damage or lowered the difficulty sufficiently. It turns out I didn't have enough damage for one T3 spell to primarily determine the speed of the round, but the performance gap did decrease as I reduced difficulty. Maybe some of you with more damage can help me test.

I also calculated min9 scores for some endgame builds to make some predictions. (I assume 600 prof and 100% rolls except where otherwise specified.) First off, mystic gear suffers badly by this metric due to inconsistent damage. Mystic is a good budget option vs SGs, but should perform poorly in fests. Considering the ludicrous prices for holy radiants, here's a comparison of radiants, 0% edb radiants, and mystics with a HOH:



This suggests that even terrible radiants may perfom better than mystics in fests. Now what about holy staff options? HOH is known to be the best, but let's compare a HOH with 0% roll on EDB and MDB vs other staff options:



This suggests that while a holy katalox staff might be great vs SGs, even a terrible HOH may still be better for festing. Even lowering the difficulty (and maximum monster resist) only narrows the predicted gap.

Finally, let us consider elemental nonimperil builds:



Redwood of the elementalist had been touted as potentially the best elemental nonimperil staff due to highest arcane score and mitigation 75% score, but then tests showed that willow is much faster. Indeed, elec/wind willow has a much higher min9 score than any redwood. Even fire/cold willow may be better. Interestingly, the focus suffix does well with min9 score since more consistent crits means more consistent damage, however the overall damage is still too low to compete.

I hope some more experienced players can share their experiences and let me know if this stuff makes any sense or is remotely helpful.

This post has been edited by mathl33t: Jun 9 2022, 03:57

It's late, but here are my 1H Imperil tests that I did two years ago. They didn't have any surprising results so I forgot about them. Arenas were repeated twice on Wednesday and Thursday with neutral dark rapier plus holy infusion. I did this for a month to compare my performance using varying amounts of Imperil.

I was at level 388 and over the course of the tests my deprecating proficiency rose from 412 to 414. No aether shards were used, no enchantress perk. These results are thus pessimistic but may be considered a reasonable starting point when a medium level rapier user is considering to start using Imperil style, and is wondering what the initial benefit is.

No Imperil usage (baseline)

55 rounds - 849 turns 0:05:37 (2.519 t/s) / 865 turns 0:05:50 (2.471 t/s)
60 rounds - 1,048 turns 0:06:59 (2.501 t/s) / 1,052 turns 0:07:15 (2.418 t/s)
65 rounds - 1,170 turns 0:07:42 (2.532 t/s) / 1,128 turns 0:07:31 (2.501 t/s)
80 rounds - 1,459 turns 0:09:20 (2.605 t/s) / 1,500 turns 0:09:57 (2.513 t/s)
90 rounds - 1,457 turns 0:09:39 (2.516 t/s) / 1,411 turns 0:09:22 (2.511 t/s)

One Imperil per round (Faster Imperil only trained to target 1 enemy for lowest mana cost)

55 rounds - 899 turns 0:07:00 (2.14 t/s) Imperil: 55 / 854 turns 0:06:25 (2.218 t/s) Imperil: 55
60 rounds - 1,093 turns 0:08:16 (2.204 t/s) Imperil: 60 / 1,046 turns 0:07:27 (2.34 t/s) Imperil: 61
65 rounds - 1,140 turns 0:08:21 (2.275 t/s) Imperil: 65 / 1,152 turns 0:08:10 (2.351 t/s) Imperil: 65
80 rounds - 1,452 turns 0:10:27 (2.316 t/s) Imperil: 80 / 1,488 turns 0:10:09 (2.443 t/s) Imperil: 80
90 rounds - 1,421 turns 0:10:32 (2.248 t/s) Imperil: 90 / 1,441 turns 0:10:05 (2.382 t/s) Imperil: 90

One Imperil per round (Faster Imperil trained to target 2 enemies)

55 rounds - 828 turns 0:06:20 (2.179 t/s) Imperil: 55 / 798 turns 0:05:44 (2.32 t/s) Imperil: 54
60 rounds - 1,016 turns 0:07:53 (2.148 t/s) Imperil: 59 / 1,015 turns 0:07:34 (2.236 t/s) Imperil: 59
65 rounds - 1,103 turns 0:08:12 (2.242 t/s) Imperil: 64 / 1,111 turns 0:07:48 (2.374 t/s) Imperil: 65
80 rounds - 1,408 turns 0:09:54 (2.37 t/s) Imperil: 78 / 1,395 turns 0:09:55 (2.345 t/s) Imperil: 78
90 rounds - 1,344 turns 0:09:33 (2.346 t/s) Imperil: 89 / 1,394 turns 0:09:38 (2.412 t/s) Imperil: 90

One Imperil per round (Faster Imperil fully trained to target 3 enemies)

55 rounds - 812 turns 0:05:43 (2.367 t/s) Imperil: 54 / 784 turns 0:05:46 (2.266 t/s) Imperil: 56
60 rounds - 981 turns 0:07:13 (2.266 t/s) Imperil: 60 / 963 turns 0:07:26 (2.159 t/s) Imperil: 60
65 rounds - 1,023 turns 0:07:17 (2.341 t/s) Imperil: 65 / 1,048 turns 0:07:53 (2.216 t/s) Imperil: 65
80 rounds - 1,330 turns 0:09:16 (2.392 t/s) Imperil: 80 / 1,362 turns 0:09:43 (2.336 t/s) Imperil: 80
90 rounds - 1,322 turns 0:09:05 (2.426 t/s) Imperil: 88 / 1,334 turns 0:09:12 (2.417 t/s) Imperil: 89

Multiple Imperils per round (Two Imperils in 5 monster rounds, Three Imperils in 8 monster rounds)

55 rounds - 744 turns 0:05:45 (2.157 t/s) Imperil: 83 / 763 turns 0:06:13 (2.046 t/s) Imperil: 83
60 rounds - 914 turns 0:07:54 (1.928 t/s) Imperil: 131 / 888 turns 0:07:22 (2.009 t/s) Imperil: 130
65 rounds - 981 turns 0:08:12 (1.994 t/s) Imperil: 139 / 972 turns 0:08:11 (1.98 t/s) Imperil: 142
80 rounds - 1,292 turns 0:10:46 (2 t/s) Imperil: 175 / 1,234 turns 0:09:10 (2.244 t/s) Imperil: 167
90 rounds - 1,279 turns 0:10:12 (2.125 t/s) Imperil: 136 / 1,255 turns 0:09:06 (2.299 t/s) Imperil: 131

Conclusion, there was no benefit to Imperil at all. It also didn't hurt me. Imperil gets better as your level rises, so this is just its starting point for skeptics and lazy people. Others may have varying experiences. I have some max forged equipment and DD5, which makes Imperil less helpful.

With only 1 target monster, Imperil did not improve my turns, and I simply got 8~15% slower due to a turns/second drop. I used mouse wheel up to cast Imperil; I recall I had checked and I was about as fast as other mouse-only users. The keyboard will help to play quicker, but there may still be some turns/second drop unless you are okay with flying past round clears and accidentally hitting monsters to open succeeding rounds.

Each additional target monster reduced my turns until at full Faster Imperil training I had the same clear times as no Imperil usage. Casting multiple Imperils per round worsened my clear times because of further turns/second drop, with some Imperils having fewer than 3 valid targets each. With keyboard there should be no further turns/second drop and this would perform much better.

In case there is any interaction, I always used Fire Shield, Haste, and had a lowest tier 1.7% attack speed bonus from Swift Strike.

The wiki says the following
Where does 27.5% come from?
-snap-

two weeks arena datas:
totally 82596 monsters, 24838 items drop, about 30% drop rate
but that's probably not the actually random drop rate, because of the SGs and clear bonus
except the special monsters and trophies:
70949 normal mosters, about 23.3K items drop, minus the clear bonus, should be little higher than 30%
edit: the datas includes some RE result and the last round bonus, and it's difficult to filter them out, so this data is meaningless

not really a serious research, but since I posted some wrong data so just correct them here: the two weeks datas includes some RE and last round bonus so the result is not reliable.
I check some other datas:

CODE

45/50 Scavenger trainings
# | battle        | monsters | drops  | drop rate
-------------------------------------------------------
1 | 374 * TT&T    | 148852   | 41787  | 28.0%
2 | #1-last round | 147356   | 40213  | 27.3%
3 | 354 * IW      | 254849   | 68317  | 26.8%
4 | 1 * 1000GF    | 8316     | 6210   | 36.7%

the #2 & #3 shows maybe the expected maximum 27.5% random drop chance is correct, don't know how it come although. and maybe there's no difference between arena and IW ( and maybe also GF )

This is easy to test. Mobs in grindfest can drop an item and crystals:
Or they can drop crystals twice, or credits and crystals:
Or an equip and crystals:

and since kamio11 have confirm there is another independent crystals drop in GF, I guess the additional crystals drop chance in GF is fixed 10%. guess only, since I don't have enough datas to prove that

This post has been edited by what_is_name: Aug 10 2022, 10:00

The total number of unique monsters seen was 2790.
I fought a total of 167,268 monsters. ('Total appearances'.)
The average power level per appearance was 1821. (Total power level / appearances.)
The average power level per unique monster was 1612. (Total power level / unique monsters.)
178 different players have monsters high level enough to show in max-level PFests.
The number of appearances made by level 2250 monsters was 30,948. This is 18.5% of all appearances.

2 years have passed, and this is how the monsters have changed:

The total number of unique monsters seen was 2951.
I fought a total of 167,517 monsters across 20 PFUDOR grindfests. ('Total appearances'.)
The average power level per appearance was 1901. (Total power level / appearances.)
The average power level per unique monster was 1701. (Total power level / unique monsters.)
The number of appearances made by level 2250 monsters was 37,936. This is 22.6% of all appearances.

Top 100 players, sorted by the number of times I saw their monsters:

CODE

|   Rank | Trainer           |   Monsters |   Counted |   % of Total Apps |   Avg/Count |   Avg/Monster |   Total pLvl |   % of Total Dmg |
|--------|-------------------|------------|-----------|-------------------|-------------|---------------|--------------|------------------|
|      1 | Sushilicious      |        200 |     16867 |            10.069 |        1935 |          1925 |       385012 |            7.132 |
|      2 | Deadbeatvvv       |        196 |     15133 |             9.034 |        2027 |          2015 |       394980 |            9.417 |
|      3 | Nero-Arc          |        200 |     14820 |             8.847 |        1839 |          1839 |       367884 |            8.837 |
|      4 | morineko          |        200 |     14799 |             8.834 |        1752 |          1701 |       340328 |           10.607 |
|      5 | serorin           |        105 |     10649 |             6.357 |        1697 |          1694 |       177927 |            7.311 |
|      6 | sssss2            |        200 |     10380 |             6.196 |        2100 |          1705 |       341054 |            8.055 |
|      7 | gc00018           |        106 |      7968 |             4.757 |        1743 |          1686 |       178748 |            6.021 |
|      8 | Petal_Kiss        |        200 |      6113 |             3.649 |        2002 |          1552 |       310443 |            3.31  |
|      9 | MidNightPass      |        112 |      5906 |             3.526 |        1656 |          1611 |       180476 |            3.262 |
|     10 | NerfThis          |        141 |      4632 |             2.765 |        2203 |          1590 |       224194 |            3.298 |
|     11 | Nezu              |         48 |      4399 |             2.626 |        1853 |          1727 |        82923 |            2.899 |
|     12 | moanim            |         80 |      3504 |             2.092 |        1960 |          1873 |       149859 |            1.853 |
|     13 | Koaen             |          7 |      3045 |             1.818 |        2214 |          2209 |        15469 |            2.237 |
|     14 | danixxx           |         15 |      2009 |             1.199 |        1723 |          1688 |        25331 |            1.177 |
|     15 | .@_@.@_@.         |         31 |      1714 |             1.023 |        1975 |          1805 |        55978 |            0.971 |
|     16 | Noni              |         37 |      1589 |             0.949 |        1725 |          1723 |        63751 |            0.432 |
|     17 | kamio11           |         11 |      1576 |             0.941 |        1909 |          1753 |        19287 |            0.448 |
|     18 | RoadShoe          |        131 |      1531 |             0.914 |        1740 |          1485 |       194602 |            0.341 |
|     19 | Honeycat          |          4 |      1427 |             0.852 |        2242 |          2062 |         8250 |            0.542 |
|     20 | Mantra64          |         14 |      1402 |             0.837 |        1760 |          1645 |        23033 |            0.455 |
|     21 | threekoala        |         23 |      1306 |             0.78  |        1935 |          1585 |        36475 |            0.288 |
|     22 | StonyCat          |          3 |      1288 |             0.769 |        2177 |          2161 |         6483 |            0.747 |
|     23 | 我叫木头           |          5 |      1250 |             0.746 |        2249 |          2197 |        10989 |            0.232 |
|     24 | dnszkdl           |         11 |      1248 |             0.745 |        1670 |          1668 |        18354 |            0.317 |
|     25 | jantch            |         14 |      1092 |             0.652 |        1834 |          1809 |        25326 |            0.25  |
|     26 | 15112006          |         20 |      1048 |             0.626 |        1838 |          1828 |        36561 |            0.182 |
|     27 | ddwiki            |          4 |      1014 |             0.605 |        2021 |          1944 |         7776 |            0.974 |
|     28 | another planet    |          2 |       986 |             0.589 |        2250 |          2250 |         4500 |            0.85  |
|     29 | qdjseh001         |         88 |       979 |             0.584 |        1502 |          1502 |       132186 |            0.378 |
|     30 | Void Domain       |          2 |       957 |             0.571 |        2250 |          2250 |         4500 |            0.739 |
|     31 | warachiasion      |          3 |       795 |             0.475 |        2038 |          1957 |         5872 |            0.746 |
|     32 | EsotericSatire    |          3 |       790 |             0.472 |        2041 |          1898 |         5696 |            0.236 |
|     33 | Thick Meat Maniac |         74 |       762 |             0.455 |        1622 |          1595 |       118080 |            0.138 |
|     34 | Ichy              |          3 |       760 |             0.454 |        2064 |          1877 |         5632 |            0.533 |
|     35 | foobarwtf         |          2 |       683 |             0.408 |        2095 |          2016 |         4033 |            0.535 |
|     36 | KINOSHITAMIKOTO   |          5 |       679 |             0.405 |        2051 |          1731 |         8658 |            0.42  |
|     37 | fihero            |          2 |       664 |             0.396 |        2103 |          1999 |         3999 |            0.297 |
|     38 | Chizuru Ichinose  |        109 |       641 |             0.383 |        1550 |          1532 |       167025 |            0.251 |
|     39 | mouisaac          |         16 |       592 |             0.353 |        1561 |          1561 |        24990 |            0.195 |
|     40 | ashimoto          |          3 |       566 |             0.338 |        1809 |          1796 |         5390 |            0.101 |
|     41 | HTTP/308          |          5 |       512 |             0.306 |        2192 |          1648 |         8240 |            0.443 |
|     42 | SakiRaFubuKi      |          3 |       504 |             0.301 |        2250 |          2250 |         6750 |            0.536 |
|     43 | Dreamophobia      |          1 |       503 |             0.3   |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.43  |
|     44 | Ming28561         |         21 |       497 |             0.297 |        2221 |          1724 |        36210 |            0.376 |
|     45 | arialinnoc        |          6 |       493 |             0.294 |        2053 |          1601 |         9606 |            0.418 |
|     46 | atomicpuppy       |          5 |       486 |             0.29  |        2249 |          2238 |        11190 |            0.4   |
|     47 | tibus1979         |          1 |       483 |             0.288 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.183 |
|     48 | biborobi          |          1 |       470 |             0.281 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.409 |
|     49 | eliudnir          |          1 |       469 |             0.28  |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.279 |
|     50 | Thira             |          1 |       465 |             0.278 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.447 |
|     51 | TheTornPrince     |          1 |       456 |             0.272 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.329 |
|     52 | poi999poi         |         41 |       427 |             0.255 |        1505 |          1505 |        61726 |            0.082 |
|     53 | cylinnia          |         43 |       426 |             0.254 |        1517 |          1519 |        65356 |            0.271 |
|     54 | 东三雪碧           |          4 |       425 |             0.254 |        1786 |          1655 |         6622 |            0.391 |
|     55 | LTF               |          2 |       424 |             0.253 |        2247 |          2001 |         4003 |            0.137 |
|     56 | Ass Spanker       |          3 |       412 |             0.246 |        2246 |          1915 |         5745 |            0.215 |
|     57 | treesloth         |          6 |       405 |             0.242 |        1622 |          1613 |         9683 |            0.286 |
|     58 | Mahiro-kyun       |          2 |       380 |             0.227 |        1923 |          1786 |         3573 |            0.242 |
|     59 | LittleSnowBoy     |          1 |       362 |             0.216 |        2033 |          2033 |         2033 |            0.114 |
|     60 | rjgc              |          1 |       359 |             0.214 |        2013 |          2013 |         2013 |            0.333 |
|     61 | sky15jam          |          1 |       353 |             0.211 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.079 |
|     62 | Hentai Woody      |          1 |       350 |             0.209 |        2003 |          2003 |         2003 |            0.271 |
|     63 | Anemone           |          1 |       337 |             0.201 |        2250 |          2250 |         2250 |            0.327 |
|     64 | Amiya             |          1 |       322 |             0.192 |        1983 |          1983 |         1983 |            0.121 |
|     65 | J.L.              |          2 |       319 |             0.19  |        1771 |          1722 |         3444 |            0.115 |
|     66 | Hinoka            |          2 |       311 |             0.186 |        2249 |          2197 |         4395 |            0.306 |
|     67 | Maximum_Joe       |          1 |       308 |             0.184 |        1895 |          1895 |         1895 |            0.077 |
|     68 | Nekobenki         |          3 |       306 |             0.183 |        1787 |          1653 |         4961 |            0.309 |
|     69 | sehokila          |          7 |       295 |             0.176 |        1609 |          1605 |        11240 |            0.235 |
|     70 | Alicia Florence   |          2 |       283 |             0.169 |        1728 |          1728 |         3456 |            0.181 |
|     71 | lord of dao       |          2 |       268 |             0.16  |        1848 |          1693 |         3386 |            0.222 |
|     72 | sabregimp         |         12 |       257 |             0.153 |        1539 |          1533 |        18403 |            0.101 |
|     73 | unitready         |          1 |       256 |             0.153 |        1869 |          1869 |         1869 |            0.247 |
|     74 | hayate hisakawa   |          3 |       246 |             0.147 |        1672 |          1627 |         4881 |            0.186 |
|     75 | Bane13            |          1 |       234 |             0.14  |        2028 |          2028 |         2028 |            0.081 |
|     76 | dkdk554           |          1 |       231 |             0.138 |        1839 |          1839 |         1839 |            0.138 |
|     77 | Kira.Yoshikage    |         21 |       206 |             0.123 |        1501 |          1501 |        31531 |            0.069 |
|     78 | ace_amuro         |          2 |       200 |             0.119 |        1659 |          1644 |         3288 |            0.104 |
|     79 | Sapo84            |          2 |       193 |             0.115 |        1629 |          1629 |         3258 |            0.142 |
|     80 | 雨宮 優子          |          2 |       178 |             0.106 |        1671 |          1671 |         3343 |            0.134 |
|     81 | FullestDay        |          1 |       174 |             0.104 |        1773 |          1773 |         1773 |            0.135 |
|     82 | Atypical          |          5 |       173 |             0.103 |        1559 |          1543 |         7718 |            0.062 |
|     83 | e-Stark           |          1 |       170 |             0.101 |        1728 |          1728 |         1728 |            0.159 |
|     84 | mfs5vnut32        |         14 |       155 |             0.093 |        1560 |          1560 |        21840 |            0.059 |
|     85 | hgbdd             |         12 |       150 |             0.09  |        2176 |          1790 |        21489 |            0.061 |
|     86 | Basara Nekki      |          5 |       146 |             0.087 |        1758 |          1758 |         8790 |            0.104 |
|     87 | Ckyc              |          1 |       137 |             0.082 |        1712 |          1712 |         1712 |            0.058 |
|     88 | Juggernaut Santa  |          1 |       135 |             0.081 |        1698 |          1698 |         1698 |            0.039 |
|     89 | jackalo           |          3 |       129 |             0.077 |        1560 |          1560 |         4680 |            0.045 |
|     90 | Holy Bunny        |          2 |       127 |             0.076 |        1617 |          1616 |         3233 |            0.11  |
|     91 | ctaglack          |          3 |       127 |             0.076 |        1643 |          1543 |         4629 |            0.114 |
|     92 | gamagaeru         |          1 |       126 |             0.075 |        1689 |          1689 |         1689 |            0.046 |
|     93 | Sky Arc           |          4 |       126 |             0.075 |        1570 |          1552 |         6210 |            0.058 |
|     94 | 這是蘆葦           |          1 |       125 |             0.075 |        1728 |          1728 |         1728 |            0.104 |
|     95 | pontaqqq          |          5 |       121 |             0.072 |        1567 |          1572 |         7860 |            0.098 |
|     96 | ryuseii           |          4 |       121 |             0.072 |        1963 |          1792 |         7171 |            0.08  |
|     97 | lovegg            |         19 |       121 |             0.072 |        1586 |          1611 |        30612 |            0.044 |
|     98 | Asariborn         |          1 |       117 |             0.07  |        1698 |          1698 |         1698 |            0.019 |
|     99 | ariosty           |          3 |       116 |             0.069 |        1590 |          1590 |         4770 |            0.122 |
|    100 | safmy             |          4 |       111 |             0.066 |        1582 |          1546 |         6187 |            0.05  |

What to think about https://ehwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Monster_Lab section "Power Level's Effect On Gifts" ?

• It say "I removed the above section" but the history show only additions.
• The formula is stricken. Why not remove it if it's wrong? Why not removing the strike if it's right?
• It mix the term of "roll" (that could refer either to the final result (Gift Quality Roll) or just to the random number generation result) and PL (that should just be the monster level, but sometimes seems to be an equivalent to the final result (Gift Quality Roll) the way values are compared.
• It look a bit like that part could have been the sum of writings from several people, but all was added by a single person in a single edit, and there's no name or other confirmation of multiple identities involved.

It would be interesting if it was clarified somehow (either just the presentation, or an update based on current actual research, which is why I'm posting here)

2 years have passed, and this is how the monsters have changed:

The main thing that's interesting is how little things have changed in two years. I don't think I've even upgraded any of my most powerful mobs in the last few years and I somehow moved up one place.

The main thing that's interesting is how little things have changed in two years. I don't think I've even upgraded any of my most powerful mobs in the last few years and I somehow moved up one place.

Great summary, and I agree it's interesting and not what I would have expected.

For whatever reasons (could use some thoughts from HV economics experts) I guess monster PL creep somehow slowed down drastically, preventing the game from being ruined (in the eyes of a very few) or making dark/holy melee weapons more sucky (probably the reverse happened when the new SG arenas were introduced).

Still, monster PL creep did affect those things over the (prior) years. Maybe the upcoming HV game versions will have other things to counteract various effects of monster PL creep. Oh yeah, that PL creep also made Overpower way overpowered to the point that it contends for first or second-best 1H potency (which it should not, as Overpower is already by far the best potency for any other melee style) and now potencies will be gone. So yeah.

bump

This was missing in the research thread: data from sssss2, for which I'm very grateful.


Got 23.7 peerless vouchers.

CODE

Shrine Fortune (7/7)

    42.9 % [3] Legendary
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of Warding
    57.1 % [4] Magnificent

Festival Coupon (30/30)

    3.3 % [1] Peerless
    Peerless Zircon Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    6.7 % [2] Legendary
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Surtr
    90.0 % [27] Magnificent

Stocking Stuffers (6/6)

    100.0 % [6] Magnificent

Barrel (1/1)

    100.0 % [1] Magnificent

Annoying Gun (1/1)

    100.0 % [1] Magnificent

Vaccine Certificate (1/1)

    100.0 % [1] Magnificent

Noodly Appendage (1403/1403)

    0.1 % [2] Peerless
    Peerless Ruby Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    Peerless Radiant Phase Pants of Heimdall
    1.6 % [23] Legendary
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Charged Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Demon-fiend
    Legendary Onyx Phase Pants of Heimdall
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of the Demon-fiend
    Legendary Cobalt Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Frugal Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Charged Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Radiant Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Frugal Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    19.1 % [268] Magnificent
    79.1 % [1110] Exquisite

Unicorn Horn => Tier 5 (1322/1322)

    0.1 % [1] Legendary
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of the Elementalist
    4.6 % [61] Magnificent
    48.1 % [636] Exquisite
    47.2 % [624] Superior

Sapling => Tier 5 (632/632)

    0.2 % [1] Peerless
    Peerless Ruby Phase Pants of Freyr
    5.9 % [37] Magnificent
    49.8 % [315] Exquisite
    44.1 % [279] Superior

Black T-Shirt => Tier 5 (298/298)

    1.0 % [3] Legendary
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    5.4 % [16] Magnificent
    49.3 % [147] Exquisite
    44.3 % [132] Superior

Broken Glasses => Tier 5 (2268/2268)

    0.2 % [5] Legendary
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Demon-fiend
    Legendary Mystic Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    5.1 % [116] Magnificent
    46.6 % [1058] Exquisite
    48.0 % [1089] Superior

Hinamatsuri Doll => Tier 5 (2253/2253)

    0.4 % [10] Legendary
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Amber Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Onyx Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Heimdall
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Cobalt Phase Pants of Mjolnir
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    Legendary Amber Phase Pants of Freyr
    Legendary Radiant Phase Pants of Niflheim
    4.9 % [110] Magnificent
    49.0 % [1104] Exquisite
    45.7 % [1029] Superior

Bunny-Girl Costume => Tier 5 (2248/2248)

    0.7 % [15] Legendary
    Legendary Onyx Phase Pants of Surtr
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Amber Phase Pants of Fenrir
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Ruby Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Jade Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Jade Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Amber Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of the Curse-weaver
    Legendary Zircon Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Warding
    Legendary Frugal Phase Pants of Niflheim
    4.5 % [102] Magnificent
    48.7 % [1094] Exquisite
    46.1 % [1037] Superior

Lock of Blue Hair => Tier 5 (530/530)

    0.6 % [3] Legendary
    Legendary Cobalt Cotton Pants of Protection
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    Legendary Charged Cotton Pants of Protection
    5.1 % [27] Magnificent
    45.3 % [240] Exquisite
    49.1 % [260] Superior

Dalek Voicebox => Tier 5 (252/252)

    0.4 % [1] Legendary
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Heaven-sent
    4.4 % [11] Magnificent
    50.4 % [127] Exquisite
    44.8 % [113] Superior

Mithra's Flower => Tier 5 (241/241)

    0.8 % [2] Legendary
    Legendary Zircon Phase Pants of Niflheim
    Legendary Frugal Cotton Pants of the Earth-walker
    3.3 % [8] Magnificent
    45.2 % [109] Exquisite
    50.6 % [122] Superior

Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch => Tier 5 (244/244)

    3.7 % [9] Magnificent
    49.6 % [121] Exquisite
    46.7 % [114] Superior

ManBearPig Tail => Tier 5 (252/252)

    0.4 % [1] Legendary
    Legendary Ruby Cotton Pants of Warding
    5.6 % [14] Magnificent
    45.6 % [115] Exquisite
    48.4 % [122] Superior

This was missing in the research thread: data from sssss2, for which I'm very grateful.

If you care about that kind of data, I have some extras to add on:

CODE

Stocking Stuffers (49)
10.2 % [5] Legendary
89.8 % [44] Magnificent

Shrine Fortune (14)
7.1 % [1] Legendary
92.9 % [13] Magnificent

Festival Coupon (72)
1.4 % [1] Peerless
18.1 % [13] Legendary
80.6 % [58] Magnificent

Annoying Gun (36)
5.6 % [2] Peerless
19.4 % [7] Legendary
75.0 % [27] Magnificent

Trophy Tier 5 (81279)
0.0 % [9] Peerless
0.5 % [415] Legendary
5.0 % [4024] Magnificent
47.5 % [38601] Exquisite
47.0 % [38200] Superior
0.0 % [30] 1x Peerless Voucher

Noodly Appendage (4181)
0.1 % [3] Peerless
2.1 % [86] Legendary
20.0 % [836] Magnificent
77.9 % [3255] Exquisite

A while back I discovered something interesting about Random Encounters. They can persist past the dawn!

I've tested it a couple times, and it can allow you to trigger two REs within minutes of each other if you trigger one right before dawn, don't start it, trigger dawn, and then start the first RE (from before dawn) shortly before it expires, and then trigger another RE 30 minutes after dawn.

Not exactly earth shaking discovery, but it's not mentioned in the RE wiki entry. The dawn wiki entry Says "the next encounter cannot be triggered until 30 min. after the dawn event was", but doesn't mention that you can still start REs triggered in the half hour before dawn.

The wiki says "During battle, monsters gain 10%? of MP and 5% SP per active turn."

I tested in battle just now and it seems like on IWBTH difficulty, monsters gain 5% SP per turn (20 Attacks) and 4% SP per turn with Haste active (25 Attacks).

On PFUDOR difficulty, monsters seem to gain roughly 8% SP per turn (12~13 Attacks) and 6% per turn with Haste active (16~17 Attacks). Given my crude testing method it's reasonable to guess, and visually consistent with what I saw in my various trials, that the true gain could have been 8% 7.5% SP per turn.

These tests were performed in isekai at level 344 with 0% Attack Speed Bonus. I used a caveman method of hitting monsters that visually appear to randomly start with close to zero SP. Perhaps it would be better to test by waiting for a monster to execute an SP attack, however I'm not sure they won't regenerate a tiny bit of SP that can't be visually seen during that same turn anyway.

When using Imperil, it seemed that the amount of Imperils needed was roughly double the amount of Attacks, so monster SP regen seems tick-based, as expected. (I think I checked this at PFUDOR and with Haste on).

Question: It seems odd that Haste would only slow down a monster's SP regen by a factor of 1.25, we should expect a slow down factor of 1.5 right? Actually Haste is a multiplying factor of 1.49254 to your speed as I discovered before here but that's trivial and not the reason for this discrepancy. (Also, even if we mistakenly consider and use Haste as being in the "denominator" then that is a mathematical factor of 0.330 which can't be twisted to get the encountered SP performance either).

Perhaps my SP tests are wrong? Anyone else care to check or investigate in some other way, or have an alternate mathematical explanation?

I didn't check monster MP regen but it does appear to be roughly twice as fast as monster SP regen.

(note: This investigation is a precursor to something else, but I don't know if I will ever get around to writing about it.)

Question: It seems odd that Haste would only slow down a monster's SP regen by a factor of 1.25, we should expect a slow down factor of 1.5 right? Actually Haste is a multiplying factor of 1.49254 to your speed as I discovered before here but that's trivial and not the reason for this discrepancy. (Also, even if we mistakenly consider and use Haste as being in the "denominator" then that is a mathematical factor of 0.330 which can't be twisted to get the encountered SP performance either).

Did I really not post about this anywhere?

As of update 0.74 time units taken for an attack or spell are calculated as:

CODE

time_units = minmax(20, 10000 / (100*action_speed_multipliers), 500)

In the simple case of autocast Haste (1.5) with abilities that gives you a time unit cost of 66.666... per regular attack.

(I confirmed this is still the case with Tenboro in PMs when I was trying to work out whether there was a speed factor I hadn't accounted for - it turned out to be the extra 1.25x from spell proficiency.)

I don't think monster regen is normalized around your time units spent at all - just tick based like you mentioned - and I think the numbers you've got are probably pretty close.

That link was useful, but I dont' think it answered my Question: or rather, mysterious problem, that I encountered above. I expect that having Haste on should slow down apparent monster SP regen by a 1.5 factor, since that is what Haste gives. But the SP regen is only slowed by 1.25, which is weird.

I did another test just now to make sure my isekai Haste is working (with full Abilities) and it seemed to increase the duration of my 1H Overwhelming Strikes as expected, from 4 to 6 turns, or a 1.5 factor.

That link was useful, but I dont' think it answered my Question: or rather, mysterious problem, that I encountered above. I expect that having Haste on should slow down apparent monster SP regen by a 1.5 factor, since that is what Haste gives. But the SP regen is only slowed by 1.25, which is weird.

I did another test just now to make sure my isekai Haste is working (with full Abilities) and it seemed to increase the duration of my 1H Overwhelming Strikes as expected, from 4 to 6 turns, or a 1.5 factor.

It may be that a monster's regen is applied whenever the monster gets a turn, so monsters that have any attack speed (ie, PFUDOR +25% and chaos tokens) would seem to be less affected by haste in that manner.